Ah juice schmuice. Everyone was using. Before the 50's there were no black players. In the 60's and 70's it was greenies 80's and on it's been roids. There's never been fairness in baseball and never will be. I look at people for their numbers and their careers. Arod is hands down the greatest SS in the history of the game.
Derek Jeter-
- Thread starter knighthawk13
- Start date
Yankee Stadium gives up a lot of homeruns, this is true. But that doesn't mean it is easier to get hits necesarily. It is easier to hit homeruns, but it is harder to get singles and double because of the shorter outfields. This would actualy hinder Jeter from getting more singles and doubles witch is what his strength is as a hitter.
BTW: Alan Trammell's road OPS is .749
Jeter's road OPS is .820
to quote Jay Z "Men lie, women lie, numbers don't"
Defensively...it would go Ozzie Smith/Omar > everybody else...no way was Omar better defensively than ozzie.
One word. Expansion.
trj
Well-Known Member
I pretty much agree with Travisam throughout this thread.
He isn't even the best shortstop on his own team.....Anybody else at the same point in their career, with the same dimininshing skill set, would have been moved to centerfield.
Overhyped? absolutely, yes.
overrated? No. Scaled down version of the Tim Tebow effect( a or e the spelling of effect? can't remember) ......anyway, I think everyone gets my point.
He isn't even the best shortstop on his own team.....Anybody else at the same point in their career, with the same dimininshing skill set, would have been moved to centerfield.
Overhyped? absolutely, yes.
overrated? No. Scaled down version of the Tim Tebow effect( a or e the spelling of effect? can't remember) ......anyway, I think everyone gets my point.
GravyJones
Well-Known Member
This thread makes my brain hurt. Gold Gloves are a horrendous way to measure defense. Terrible. Look no further than the award being given to Nate McLouth and Derek Jeter. For most of his career, Derek Jeter has been a borderline terrible defensive shortstop. There are no flawless defensive metrics, but the one thing they have in common is that Jeter is simply not good in the field. It's already been stated, but it bears repeating that he's not even the best SS on his team.
How exactly does the number of rings won make him a better player than anyone else? You know who else has multiple rings? Luis Sojo. Teams win the World Series. Compare Jeter's career numbers to his postseason numbers. Outside of a slightly higher SLG, he's been the same player in the postseason as the regular season, but that's also comparing more than 10,000 PAs to a little over 600.
How exactly does the number of rings won make him a better player than anyone else? You know who else has multiple rings? Luis Sojo. Teams win the World Series. Compare Jeter's career numbers to his postseason numbers. Outside of a slightly higher SLG, he's been the same player in the postseason as the regular season, but that's also comparing more than 10,000 PAs to a little over 600.
knighthawk13
Well-Known Member
Rings won doesn't matter. Why don't you ask Ernie Banks that question. I bet he would disagree. In regards to Jeter's post season numbers compared to regular season, I don't get your point. His career numbers in the regular season are very good as well. Also, how many career post season hits and runs scored does Luis Sojo have compared to DJ?
GravyJones
Well-Known Member
Somebody missed the point...
EnviroHawk
Member
Ahhhh yes, the Derek Jeter conversation.
Want to know how to quickly tell a casual baseball fan from a someone that has taken the time to study the game? Bring up Derek Jeter.
Easily the most over-rated baseball player of my lifetime, and I'm not a young pup. He's a very good player, no question - but not a good fielder, and his offensive contributions (even using simple non-situational adjusted stats like OPS) are lower than several other shortstops in the same era.
One of the interesting facets of baseball is that most interactions happen in isolation, in terms of an individual's performance. Do other teammates help you swing the bat harder, or do a better job catching a fly ball? Not to a measurable extent - certainly not the way that a good point guard can elevate the performance of others on the basketball floor.
There are intangibles in baseball, for sure, and I believe that Derek Jeter probably sets a good example for his teammates to a greater degree than others do. But how much of a factor has that been in terms of the Yankees' success? You will have a tough time arguing that point with me.
I love this part of baseball - it is possible to accurately quantify a player's performance to a degree that isn't possible in the other major sports.
Those numbers, clearly, tell you that Derek Jeter is a very good player, one of the top ten shortstops of his era, but not even close to the greatest shortstop ever.
Want to know how to quickly tell a casual baseball fan from a someone that has taken the time to study the game? Bring up Derek Jeter.
Easily the most over-rated baseball player of my lifetime, and I'm not a young pup. He's a very good player, no question - but not a good fielder, and his offensive contributions (even using simple non-situational adjusted stats like OPS) are lower than several other shortstops in the same era.
One of the interesting facets of baseball is that most interactions happen in isolation, in terms of an individual's performance. Do other teammates help you swing the bat harder, or do a better job catching a fly ball? Not to a measurable extent - certainly not the way that a good point guard can elevate the performance of others on the basketball floor.
There are intangibles in baseball, for sure, and I believe that Derek Jeter probably sets a good example for his teammates to a greater degree than others do. But how much of a factor has that been in terms of the Yankees' success? You will have a tough time arguing that point with me.
I love this part of baseball - it is possible to accurately quantify a player's performance to a degree that isn't possible in the other major sports.
Those numbers, clearly, tell you that Derek Jeter is a very good player, one of the top ten shortstops of his era, but not even close to the greatest shortstop ever.
Excellent post.
loesshillshawk
Well-Known Member
One word how many other shortstops have been a part of 138 post season games (1st in history of MLB), at bats (1st), plate appearances(1st), runs scored(1st), hits(1st), total bases(1st), doubles (2nd), triples (10th), home runs (3rd), RBI's (4th), stolen bases (6th), singles (1st) and most important 7 world series appearances and 5 world championships, say all you want he wins and does it with great class. Never in trouble always says great things about his opponents and supports his teammates. I will cheer for him anytime!
imported_ankle23
Well-Known Member
doesn't him playing since '96 say SOMETHING about his ability to play the position? Anything? These people who claim him to be a liability are the same that probably say that the Yankees buy the best team in baseball.....don't you see the dichotomy of that rationale?? If not, I'll explain it - if the Yankees thought he was a liability, they'd be done with him - I mean its the Yanks, it's corporate ball. I've heard all the arguments on how this contemporary or that contemporary were light years better than him.....I honestly think all those guys don't play any longer.......
ZackGreinke
Well-Known Member
Best shortstop ever? really? lol
RLeahey14
Well-Known Member
The Baseball Analysts: MLB Payroll Efficiency, 2006-2008
Check that out, money = wins over a period of time. He has played since 1996 on one of the highest paying teams in sports. You put him on the Indians in place of Vizquel at the beginning of his career and honestly I think he is a journeyman. Honestly I just feel he has luck on his side.
I think the play that sums up his whole career is "the flip" against the Athletic's in playoffs. Was it a great play? Yes... but honestly what the hell was he doing cutting off a throw to the catcher on the first base side? That is a first baseman's play, he shouldn't even have been over there. If you watch the replay he is just casually jogging over there, and if the throw is on the line he just ends up in the way of the catcher's field of vision. I have to believe that play was just sheer luck with him being out of position.
Is he a winner, or has he had the good fortune to play on a good to great team for virtually his entire career? Johnny Murphy has 7 World Series Rings, does that mean he's the greatest pitcher ever? Joe Collins has 6 rings, shows just how great of a 1B he was, right? Hell Jerry Coleman has 6. Means he was a great 2B. Quick question, what do those three guys have in common? Oh, yeah, they played for great Yankee teams.
Would we be having this conversation if ARod had started with the Yankees and Jeter with the Mariners?
There's quite a few SS I'd take over him. In no particular order - ARod, Wagner, Vaughn, Larkin, Ripken, Yount, Cronin, Trammell, Jennings, Boudreau, Smith, Vizquel and Sewell just to name a few. If I studied the numbers, I could probably come up with another 4-5 names.
He's a very good ballplayer. However, he's not even in the conversation for the greatest SS ever, despite what ESPN, and it's idiot analysts, would like people to believe.
woodyk1
Well-Known Member
I beg to differ on the play against the A's. Here's a write up on the play. If you think he was just lucky on the play, then I don't know what to tell you. He was where he was supposed to be, saw that the throw was awful and made an adjustment. Oh, and he made a perfect throw backhanded and the guy was called out. The clip mentioned in the link does not appear (by the way).
For all of you Derek Jeter fans . . . . The Flip-Play - Yahoo Booters And Yahoo Tools
HAWKEYESTATE4ever
Well-Known Member
Jeff Blauser was better than Derek Jeter. Plus he smoked two packs a day. Go Braves! 
