CBS: Doyel & Dodd want Penn State to pay

atxhawk said:
HawkeyesWin said:
Arkansas acted when it came to there attention. PSU helped to perpetuate the rape of little boys.
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But until he crashed his motorcycle with her on it they were unaware of what he was doing and therefore you could say they had lack of institutional control. So while Arkansas acted ethically after they discovered the incident they were still not in control of what was going on before. This is where the lack of any sort of written and documented rules by the NCAA are going to make it difficult.
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I don't think it is reasonable for any institution to have complete control over all is resources nor do i think that should be the standard for LOIC to be charged.

I think there is something far worse than the LOIC tag on this whole situation. They had control and supported/enabled child rape.
 
tm3308 said:
How? The cover-up is not within the NCAA's purview. Their concern is with athletics, and the fair play thereof. They are not the moral or criminal police, nor should they be.
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This was originally in context to your statement that NCAA recruiting isn't an anti-trust issue, not the PSU coverup. It has been argued exactly the opposite. Unsuccessfully by a UK football coach. It will eventually be argued successfully. Already has been argued successfully, albeit in a different context, by women athletes against the NCAA, and by assistant coached when the NCAA wanted salary caps. Recruiting will eventually be argued successfully. When it is a big enough issue, and there is the political will.

With respect to the coverup. The US DOE is looking into this. It is also a federal issue.
 
HawkeyesWin said:
I don't think it is reasonable for any institution to have complete control over all is resources nor do i think that should be the standard for LOIC to be charged.

I think there is something far worse than the LOIC tag on this whole situation. They had control and supported/enabled child rape.
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Exactly my point in this situation. There is no current basis for what is/isn't LOIC in a situation like this or what is/isn't ethical and moral. Because of that the NCAA will have a difficult if not impossible time trying to enforce any sort of punishment in this case. I think most of us would like to see the PSU football program get punished in some way because of this, but the current rules are just too broad to try and nail anything down on them.
 
atxhawk said:
Exactly my point in this situation. There is no current basis for what is/isn't LOIC in a situation like this or what is/isn't ethical and moral. Because of that the NCAA will have a difficult if not impossible time trying to enforce any sort of punishment in this case. I think most of us would like to see the PSU football program get punished in some way because of this, but the current rules are just too broad to try and nail anything down on them.
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The rules actually aren't too broad. LOIC explicitly relates to a violation of an NCAA rule. Since (to my knowledge) no NCAA rules were violated, I don't see how the NCAA can levy the LOIC charge.

Institutional control refers to the efforts institutions make to comply with NCAA legislation and to detect and investigate violations that do occur. NCAA member institutions are obligated to maintain appropriate levels of institutional control.
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Charging - NCAA.org

EDIT: Also

A lack of institutional control is found when the Committee on Infractions determines that major violations occurred and the institution failed to display:
Adequate compliance measures.
Appropriate education on those compliance measures.
Sufficient monitoring to ensure the compliance measures are followed.
Swift action upon learning of a violation.
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I don't care what the legalities are, I just want PSU out of the B1G.
They are an embarrassment this conference will lug around with them for as long as they are allowed to be there.
I do not care that "only a small number" of Penn Staters were involved. Don't care. I want them gone. Anything short of dis-membership is a failure.
 
DexterMorgan said:
The rules actually aren't too broad. LOIC explicitly relates to a violation of an NCAA rule. Since (to my knowledge) no NCAA rules were violated, I don't see how the NCAA can levy the LOIC charge.



Charging - NCAA.org

EDIT: Also
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Thanks for that exact example. I agree with you. Pretty much been trying to show how LOIC cannot be used since there is no exact rule when it comes to situations like PSU/Arkansas, and your example just proves it.
 
atxhawk said:
Thanks for that exact example. I agree with you. Pretty much been trying to show how LOIC cannot be used since there is no exact rule when it comes to situations like PSU/Arkansas, and your example just proves it.
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Will I can see you’re serious, but it isn’t going to happen. The people responsible and stressing those responsibleâ€￾ will and should be dealt with very seriously. But the institution as a whole will move forward….sans a hefty financial penalty and a big black eye, which will be there forever.
 
Golfer said:
I think this is exactly the job of the NCAA. Lack of institutional control, all the way up to the top, to save a reputation, and an football team. To save a reputation and a football team over the lives of several young men.

I'm sure if this cover up wouldn't have happened, and this had come out sooner, PSU would still be as competitive on the field.

Level playing field indeed. Sounds like something out of a liberal newspaper.
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Where could you possibly interperet this to be a "liberal" thing? I suppose you are inferring that all "liberals" favor sexual deviation.
 
atxhawk said:
Here's a question for those of you that think the NCAA will step in here. If they step in here for the moral and ethical violations that occurred at PSU, should they step in at Arkansas also? He was using university and personal funds to support his mistress, which is ethically wrong, especially in the religious south. Granted, the scope of his indiscretions are nowhere near the scope of what happened at PSU, but it does fall under the very general category of upholding the ethics of the NCAA. Yeah, I'm using the slippery slope argument here unfortunately. As I stated before there is no clear cut, defined rule violation by PSU here. There is perjury, child molestation, cover ups, and plenty of moral wrongdoings, but none of those are defined in the NCAA rulebook, but are covered in civil and criminal law. The LOIC is going to be extremely difficult to prove. The powers in charge all knew what was going on, and they were in control. Their control was completely morally wrong, but they were still in control.

The NCAA may try and penalize PSU due to pressure from the media, but I highly doubt they would be able to get anything to stick if PSU took them to arbitration or into a court room to get an injunction filed. I can definitely see something like that happening. I can also see the NCAA trying to rewrite the rules so if something like this happens in the future there will be something in place for them to punish the offending program.

Mind you, I'm in no way supporting the cover up in the athletic department or what any of the offending parties did. I'm hoping they all get punished to the fullest extent of civil, criminal, and prison law. I would like to see the NCAA be able to hand down some sort of punishment on anybody that was involved, like a lifetime coaching ban. I just can't see them being able to do so with their current rules.

I do not feel that it is right to punish any of the players for things they had no control over, or may have had any knowledge of. Now if players knew about it, and were informed to look the other way, then that's a different story and we go back to the civil, criminal, and prison law.
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Apples and oranges. With Arkansas it was two consenting adults. No comparison at all with the raping of young boys.

I'm sure for many an appropriate punishment for PSU would be nothing short of turning Beaver Stadium into cow pasture for the college dairy herd. I don't see any kind of death penalty coming down the road but with the gravity of the situation and the public outcry of such I don't see even the limp-wristed NCAA simply sitting on its hands and doing nothing.
 
If they can prove Paterno and/or the AD covered up Sandusky's actions I think it is a case of lack of institutional control. The school is supposed to control the athletic department, and not the other way around.
A rumored side benefit of the Freeh investigation is that Paterno's control of the local police and university student code may finally be proven once and for all. Many people have said over the years that Paterno controlled who was punished and how, allowing those in trouble with the law to play and keeping their names out of the papers. We may find out if that was as common as rumored.
 
daverhawk said:
If they can prove Paterno and/or the AD covered up Sandusky's actions I think it is a case of lack of institutional control. The school is supposed to control the athletic department, and not the other way around.A rumored side benefit of the Freeh investigation is that Paterno's control of the local police and university student code may finally be proven once and for all. Many people have said over the years that Paterno controlled who was punished and how, allowing those in trouble with the law to play and keeping their names out of the papers. We may find out if that was as common as rumored.
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The NCAA may take the same approach the IRS did with Al Capone. Can't convict on worst crimes but got him on tax evasion.

My guess is raping boys is the reason for the investigation. but all of the 'other' violations will be what earns the LOIC tag. Through the door or through the window, it makes no difference to me. Just want a message sent to the other institutions out there.
 
daverhawk said:
If they can prove Paterno and/or the AD covered up Sandusky's actions I think it is a case of lack of institutional control. The school is supposed to control the athletic department, and not the other way around.
A rumored side benefit of the Freeh investigation is that Paterno's control of the local police and university student code may finally be proven once and for all. Many people have said over the years that Paterno controlled who was punished and how, allowing those in trouble with the law to play and keeping their names out of the papers. We may find out if that was as common as rumored.
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No, there isn't.
 
HawkeyesWin said:
The NCAA may take the same approach the IRS did with Al Capone. Can't convict on worst crimes but got him on tax evasion.

My guess is raping boys is the reason for the investigation. but all of the 'other' violations will be what earns the LOIC tag. Through the door or through the window, it makes no difference to me. Just want a message sent to the other institutions out there.
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I could certainly see this happening.
 
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