Big Ten Coaches Want Harbaugh Nailed to the Wall Now

99topdawg said:
I really don't know the NCAA rules, but my guess would be the recording of the signals. I don't know if it's illegal to send someone to a game to try to steal signals. I don't see a problem with it, but that's just me.

As a baseball coach, I have kids assigned to writing down all touch sequences to see what the other team's signs are. I also have a running list of numbers that teams call out for signs. There aren't many teams I don't have signs for, which is why I hate coaching changes. Is this unethical? I say no way. If I wasn't supposed to steal signs, we should all close our eyes while the catcher holds up 1 finger or 2. When a team is stealing signals from 2nd base from my catcher, I sure as heck don't get mad at the base runner. That's just good baseball. I also relay to our hitters what pitch is coming when the pitcher tips his pitches. There aren't many pitchers I can't figure out. Similar to FB coaches. If you see something often enough, it's easy to steal. If someone can steal them by watching, I have no problems with it (not sure if the NCAA agrees). If the signs are recorded, I have a problem with that.
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I tend to agree. I always scoffed at the baseball purists and their outrage at "stealing signs". Please. Reading your opponent is a key part of any sport.

Where Michigan appears to have gone over the top, is somehow getting the guy on the sidelines across from their next opponent. That and using electronic devices to record is over the top.
 
The thing that is most deserving of severe sanctions against the Michigan program moving forward (show cause order for coaches, vacate wins for last three seasons, huge fine, schollie losses) is that what they did was not grey. The rules against off-campus scouting and recording devices is clear. Michigan knew the rules, and the staff chose to purposefully, and secretly, circumvent them to gain a huge competitive edge. It worked. This is not making a couple extra recruiting phone calls or paying for a kids bus fare to his Grama's funeral. This is systemic, purposeful, organized, and institutional cheating perpetrated by most, if not all, of the grown ass adult coaches in the program. They knew better. They cheated anyway. A sledge hammer needs to be dropped.
 
99topdawg said:
I really don't know the NCAA rules, but my guess would be the recording of the signals. I don't know if it's illegal to send someone to a game to try to steal signals. I don't see a problem with it, but that's just me.

As a baseball coach, I have kids assigned to writing down all touch sequences to see what the other team's signs are. I also have a running list of numbers that teams call out for signs. There aren't many teams I don't have signs for, which is why I hate coaching changes. Is this unethical? I say no way. If I wasn't supposed to steal signs, we should all close our eyes while the catcher holds up 1 finger or 2. When a team is stealing signals from 2nd base from my catcher, I sure as heck don't get mad at the base runner. That's just good baseball. I also relay to our hitters what pitch is coming when the pitcher tips his pitches. There aren't many pitchers I can't figure out. Similar to FB coaches. If you see something often enough, it's easy to steal. If someone can steal them by watching, I have no problems with it (not sure if the NCAA agrees). If the signs are recorded, I have a problem with that.
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But the difference is that the guy was on the Michigan sidelines watching over the field at the other team making the signals during the game, then letting the coaches know during the game so could adjust calls to fit what they stole.
 
NorthKCHawk said:
While I give this about 15% chance of happening, the right thing to do is to immediately suspend Harbaugh, but allow the remaining coaching staff to coach out the end of the year. Don't get me wrong, just from what is publicly known, I think the program deserves the death sentence. But you have to balance a lot of interest, not the least of which is that this is a flagship program in a current hunt for a playoff birth. So, you shoot the most visible hostage, let the players and remaining coaches try to bring it home without getting hand signals from the back bench, and then clean house in the offseason.

Harbaugh deserves to be booted now, without any more time on the field.
The players deserve a shot to try and finish out the season without cheating. They are talented, and if they can beat OSU and PSU, they deserve to go to the playoffs

That is how I would balance this all out.
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While I totally agree with you on Harbaugh it's hard for me to agree that this team deserves to go to the playoffs. Does any team really deserve it if they cheat. On paper and based on results they absolutely belong there, but at the same time as a committee how do you tell #5 they're on the outside looking in, knowing damn well that Michigan cheated their way into that position. Not a situation I'd want to be in if I'm a Big Ten commissioner or on the playoff committee.
 
NorthKCHawk said:
The thing that is most deserving of severe sanctions against the Michigan program moving forward (show cause order for coaches, vacate wins for last three seasons, huge fine, schollie losses) is that what they did was not grey. The rules against off-campus scouting and recording devices is clear. Michigan knew the rules, and the staff chose to purposefully, and secretly, circumvent them to gain a huge competitive edge. It worked. This is not making a couple extra recruiting phone calls or paying for a kids bus fare to his Grama's funeral. This is systemic, purposeful, organized, and institutional cheating perpetrated by most, if not all, of the grown ass adult coaches in the program. They knew better. They cheated anyway. A sledge hammer needs to be dropped.
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I agree with this, but the biggest hit has to be in fine's and scholarships and cleaning house. The vacating of wins IMO doesn't work, because people see the game and the results and whether or not we say those games didn't exist, we all know they did. In situations like this the penalties have to hurt them going forward. Rewriting history or vacating wins does next to nothing IMO, and honestly I don't even know what scholarship losses would really do now that NIL has changed the landscape of things. We're totally in uncharted waters now going forward and whatever happens I'll be interested to see how it plays out.
 
kicker22 said:
I agree with this, but the biggest hit has to be in fine's and scholarships and cleaning house. The vacating of wins IMO doesn't work, because people see the game and the results and whether or not we say those games didn't exist, we all know they did. In situations like this the penalties have to hurt them going forward. Rewriting history or vacating wins does next to nothing IMO, and honestly I don't even know what scholarship losses would really do now that NIL has changed the landscape of things. We're totally in uncharted waters now going forward and whatever happens I'll be interested to see how it plays out.
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I generally agree on the vacating wins part as being a bit hollow, but this might be one of the few situations where it has meaning. Vacating those two wins against OSU would stick in the Men of Michigan's craw, and it would mean that Harbaugh never actually beat OSU. I get that it is on paper, but those two schools keep track of that rivalry more than most.

Also, also, Michigan is the all time winningest program in college football history. Guess who is in second? OSU. Guess how much they trail? 36 games. Vacating three years of victories would make up that gap.

Now that I have typed this, I now say vacating wins is a very big deal in this scenario. Very.
 
NorthKCHawk said:
I generally agree on the vacating wins part as being a bit hollow, but this might be one of the few situations where it has meaning. Vacating those two wins against OSU would stick in the Men of Michigan's craw, and it would mean that Harbaugh never actually beat OSU. I get that it is on paper, but those two schools keep track of that rivalry more than most.

Also, also, Michigan is the all time winningest program in college football history. Guess who is in second? OSU. Guess how much they trail? 36 games. Vacating three years of victories would make up that gap.

Now that I have typed this, I now say vacating wins is a very big deal in this scenario. Very.
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Well when you put it that way lol.
 
As much as I love the Bears I cursed hairball as a QB. He was crap and part of the Bears failures on offense. He is a dick!

Having said that I seriously doubt anything comes of this other than letting the other football programs vent. He had his joke suspension against cupcakes ( we could beat you blindfolded) schedule.

What would be fair is to tie him to a tree and let each head coach take turns urinating on him and then post it on all social media outlets.
 
This is not a slap on the wrist thing, IMHO. He presided over a blatant and material scheme to cheat and win games unfairly. He should never coach in college again.
 
SwirlinLingerie said:
What's the latest on this one? Any smoke?
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The consultant who did all the cheating quit his job at Michigan and claims that Harbaugh did not know what he was doing. Sure.
"Hey, who is that kid over there by our DC whispering what play is coming? Jimmy Johns guy?"

The Michigan President has warned the Big Ten Commish to allow this to play out and not be hasty.

80% chance that nothing happens until 2024 sometime.
20% chance the conference suspends just Harbaugh yet this season
0% chance the NCAA handles this situation efficiently or correctly.

I do believe in the end victories will be vacated and Harbaugh will be done. It just won't happen quickly.
 
My google feed says that the conference just sent a notice of intent to discipline Michigan and they have two days to respond. I am betting that a suspension is on its way. Cue the lawyers!!!
 
NorthKCHawk said:
Then again, I never thought they would fire BF in season, so shit happens.
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He wasn't fired, they just aren't renewing his contract. Also the scuttlebutt is that this information was leaked and that's why an announcement was made.
 
#1DieHardHawk said:
Think of it this way:

If you were a professional poker player, you study opponents tendencies, movements, facial expressions, etc., as much as you could to identify the "tells." That's preparation/scouting.

Now, let's say you have someone behind the opponent with binoculars telling you in some fashion what his/her hole cards are.

One method is part of competition. The other would get your fingers and knee caps broke in the old days.
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That's been tried before. Until James Bond snuck into the hotel room and on to the balcony and uncovered Goldfinger's ruse:)
 
Reading a lot of scuttle from Michigan fans and beat reporters that the only real discipline being considered is suspending Harbaugh, and Harbaugh is crying crocodile tears claiming he knew nothing about this and it is unfair to suspend him for something he did not do.

His lawyer, I am sure, has a lawsuit drawn up to be filed in state court in Ann Arbor with a rigged draw to assign the case to some Michigan alum judge who will grant him a TRO to keep coaching. Such bullshit. But, once he goes to court, he is stuck in the court system and will have to give testimony under oath. We will see if he is willing to pedal this same bullshit about being just as surprised as everyone else when perjury charges can come. Careful what you wish for, Jim. The NCAA does not have subpoena power, courts do.
 
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