Basketball Recruiting Question?

Are people here really, honestly, seriously dumb enough to believe the problem with Iowa basketball is that we don't have enough "Afro-Americans"?

First of all, aren't we starting three black players? Second of all, we are having trouble attracting talented players of any race. When is the last time Iowa had a really good Mexican point guard?
 
I believe there's a strong correlation between African-American players and athleticism and white players and less athleticism. Sorry, but those appear to be the facts, folks. Does that make me racist for pointing that out? I don't think so.

Yes, there are AA players who aren't that athletic and there are white players who are athletic but, generally speaking, them's the facts.

We really need to stop being a nation of politically-correct wimps sometimes.

All that being said, I just want players who are athletic(and some tall bigs would also be nice) and can play, no matter the race.
 
SteveGarvey said:
I believe there's a strong correlation between African-American players and athleticism and white players and less athleticism. Sorry, but those appear to be the facts, folks. Does that make me racist for pointing that out? I don't think so.

Yes, there are AA players who aren't that athletic and there are white players who are athletic but, generally speaking, them's the facts.

We really need to stop being a nation of politically-correct wimps sometimes.

All that being said, I just want players who are athletic(and some tall bigs would also be nice) and can play, no matter the race.
Click to expand...

There is a difference between pointing out a correlation of ethnicity to basketball talent, and saying we need to recruit based on ethnicity.

Also, you need to stop acting like repeating stereotypes makes you some kind of hero.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_E6OfdzBmTU]YouTube - The Office Stanley Playing Basketball[/ame]
 
BS- My ancestors came from Germany and other European countries and settled in the U. S. about 200 years ago. Do I refer to myself as a European American? Hell no! I was born in America and so that makes me an American PERIOD!!! They are not African Americans as most of them were born here. Most have not set a foot on African soil. Their parents, grandparents, and in many cases great grandparents were born in this country. So to me they are Americans PERIOD!!! Now if some one ask me to identify one of them by their race I will refer to them by what they are "black Americans". The other term is used for people who have other agendas (political, racial, social).......see Jessie Jackson and his reparations agenda. Get over it Jessie that was 200 years ago. They are my neighbors, my co-workers and friends. They are a an important part of our American culture in all aspects and at all levels. They are Americans.
 
I really like Fran. The state of our program is not his fault.

It falls squarely on the shoulders of our past AD & fan base.

Issue...

We had some novel idea of 'taking it to the next level' and then spent years bashing our program under Alford because many did not like his ego. This forced Alford's hand and then the hiring of the anti-Alford which was far worse so the next move was to boycott the program. Then with lack of attendance and support for b-ball our recruitment capabilities have been tremendously diminished despite Fran's tireless efforts.

Lesson... know who you are and negativity does not sell. The fan base won the battle by forcing the hand of the AD but lost the war. Know what is important = winning

Issue....
I believe we were the last program in the Big Ten to construct a practice facility. What message did the lack of a dedicated facility send to potential recruits about our seriousness in this sport? How often was this pointed out to potential recruits? It's not only a matter of having the facility but the perception.

Lesson... when athletic programs are rolling and generating dollars make sure to re-invest in those programs. At Iowa given our population state we cannot afford to be last in facilities. Only two programs should receive the primary support in this order; Football and Men's basketball. They pay the bills.

Issue....
Other programs in our conference have stepped up their game especially in neighboring states. At one time Wisconsin was what we are now. Quietly they pumped dollars into their program and hired a great coach. Minnesota who was in the basement not long ago also spent 2 million dollars a year on a proven coach who is 'black'. Are they great now? No, but they went quickly from the basement to NCAA berth contender. Northwestern is no longer inept and has an established system. Michigan has proximity to basketball talent. In the landscape, before we can ascend to the top half again we have to be able to jump some of these programs OSU, IL, MSU, Purdue, WI, Minn while also battling Mich, NW, PSU and Indiana (who will not be down forever). That's a tall order if we have nothing to sell. Thus Wisconsin can walk in and steal a much needed mid-level recruit 30 minutes from Iowa City.

Lesson... Watch for changing landscapes. We did not react to combat WI, Minn especially. We allowed a foot-hold and now can't get it back.

Issue....
Fan support. The program desperately needs this. The student support is an absolute joke. If Iowa City/Eastern Iowa cannot support the basketball team then consider moving home games to the Wells Fargo arena in Des Moines. There is a large market of Hawkeye fans who may consider attending games even in a down period if the location is convenient. I would really push this is if I were Barta.

Lesson.... Take your product to where the customers are and the customers & students in Iowa City and Cedar Rapids have spoken about their desire for the product.
 
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BigD said:
BS- My ancestors came from Germany and other European countries and settled in the U. S. about 200 years ago. Do I refer to myself as a European American? Hell no! I was born in America and so that makes me an American PERIOD!!! They are not African Americans as most of them were born here. Most have not set a foot on African soil. Their parents, grandparents, and in many cases great grandparents were born in this country. So to me they are Americans PERIOD!!! Now if some one ask me to identify one of them by their race I will refer to them by what they are "black Americans". The other term is used for people who have other agendas (political, racial, social).......see Jessie Jackson and his reparations agenda. Get over it Jessie that was 200 years ago. They are my neighbors, my co-workers and friends. They are a an important part of our American culture in all aspects and at all levels. They are Americans.
Click to expand...

Do you feel better now? Thanks for a tangential and irrelevant rant. Why people in the country can't casually discuss race in this country without grade-level name-calling is beyond me.

As to the point of this thread. I think it is very apparent that this team needs to get quicker, more explosive, and ultimately talented. I think casual observation supports a theory that urban, black kids are disproportionately successful in college basketball. Moreover we have had a difficult time recruiting urban, black youth to Iowa City this past decade. Thus, one way to help improve the talent on this team would be to make the team atmosphere more appealing and comfortable to urban, black youth as a large amount of college basketball talent falls under this generic label.

I think McCaffery is already showing this will happen. His two recruits are from NYC and Compton. Hopefully, we can continue to draw interest from this demographic and ultimately start recruiting more talented urban, black kids to come to Iowa City. If we can get enough talent to win without this demographic then great, but the past decade and casual observation suggests it will be hard.
 
SpecialKHawk said:
I really like Fran. The state of our program is not his fault.

It falls squarely on the shoulders of our past AD & fan base.

Issue...

We had some novel idea of 'taking it to the next level' and then spent years bashing our program under Alford because many did not like his ego. This forced Alford's hand and then the hiring of the anti-Alford which was far worse so the next move was to boycott the program. Then with lack of attendance and support for b-ball our recruitment capabilities have been tremendously diminished despite Fran's tireless efforts.

Lesson... know who you are and negativity does not sell. The fan base won the battle by forcing the hand of the AD but lost the war. Know what is important = winning

Issue....
I believe we were the last program in the Big Ten to construct a practice facility. What message did the lack of a dedicated facility send to potential recruits about our seriousness in this sport? How often was this pointed out to potential recruits? It's not only a matter of having the facility but the perception.

Lesson... when athletic programs are rolling and generating dollars make sure to re-invest in those programs. At Iowa given our population state we cannot afford to be last in facilities. Only two programs should receive the primary support in this order; Football and Men's basketball. They pay the bills.

Issue....
Other programs in our conference have stepped up their game especially in neighboring states. At one time Wisconsin was what we are now. Quietly they pumped dollars into their program and hired a great coach. Minnesota who was in the basement not long ago also spent 2 million dollars a year on a proven coach who is 'black'. Are they great now? No, but they went quickly from the basement to NCAA berth contender. Northwestern is no longer inept and has an established system. Michigan has proximity to basketball talent. In the landscape, before we can ascend to the top half again we have to be able to jump some of these programs OSU, IL, MSU, Purdue, WI, Minn while also battling Mich, NW, PSU and Indiana (who will not be down forever). That's a tall order if we have nothing to sell. Thus Wisconsin can walk in and steal a much needed mid-level recruit 30 minutes from Iowa City.

Lesson... Watch for changing landscapes. We did not react to combat WI, Minn especially. We allowed a foot-hold and now can't get it back.

Issue....
Fan support. The program desperately needs this. The student support is an absolute joke. If Iowa City/Eastern Iowa cannot support the basketball team then consider moving home games to the Wells Fargo arena in Des Moines. There is a large market of Hawkeye fans who may consider attending games even in a down period if the location is convenient. I would really push this is if I were Barta.

Lesson.... Take your product to where the customers are and the customers & students in Iowa City and Cedar Rapids have spoken about their desire for the product.
Click to expand...

Worst idea ever.
 
It's a mind boggleingly stupid idea, that's why. If you think we have recruiting trouble now, imagine how hard it will be to sell to recruits that all home games will have an hour bus ride down scenic I-80. Or do you propose we uproot the whole university and drop it right in Des Moines too?

Also, why do you think the people of Des Moines will pay good money to watch crappy basketball? It is not like the population of IC and CR suddenly left, leaving no one around to watch. Those people know basketball, and they know what's worth watching.
 
Iowafarmgirl said:
There is a difference between pointing out a correlation of ethnicity to basketball talent, and saying we need to recruit based on ethnicity.

Also, you need to stop acting like repeating stereotypes makes you some kind of hero.

YouTube - The Office Stanley Playing Basketball
Click to expand...

Is something a stereotype if it's true? A "stereotype" would be like saying that African-Americans like to eat watermelon which is also a shameful stereotype. I was only correcting some of the other misguided responses to the OP's.

Stop being so judgemental without understanding the motives behind the post.
 
SteveGarvey said:
Is something a stereotype if it's true? A "stereotype" would be like saying that African-Americans like to eat watermelon which is also a shameful stereotype. I was only correcting some of the other misguided responses to the OP's.

Stop being so judgemental without understanding the motives behind the post.
Click to expand...

A sterotype is almost always based on truth. A sterotype can also give positive atributes to a group, as well as negative. However, my problem with sterotypes is that they often cram a broad group of people into a narrow attribute. My problem with you is that you think people unwilling to say that blacks are more athletic (and thus embracing a sterotype) is because they are weak-willed and overly PC, afraid to "say it how it is". That is not the truth. People don't want to say that because we know you can't pigeon hole a large group of people based on one thing.

Also, there is a thin line between sterotype and prejudice. I don't think you're prejudiced, but thinking one race is different inevitably leads to treating one race different. We all do it, I'm as guilty of it as anyone (I couldn't have been raised in a more homgeneous society), but I like to recognize when I am doing something destructive and halt it.
 
Iowafarmgirl said:
A sterotype is almost always based on truth. A sterotype can also give positive atributes to a group, as well as negative. However, my problem with sterotypes is that they often cram a broad group of people into a narrow attribute. My problem with you is that you think people unwilling to say that blacks are more athletic (and thus embracing a sterotype) is because they are weak-willed and overly PC, afraid to "say it how it is". That is not the truth. People don't want to say that because we know you can't pigeon hole a large group of people based on one thing.

Also, there is a thin line between sterotype and prejudice. I don't think you're prejudiced, but thinking one race is different inevitably leads to treating one race different. We all do it, I'm as guilty of it as anyone (I couldn't have been raised in a more homgeneous society), but I like to recognize when I am doing something destructive and halt it.
Click to expand...

Your definition of stereotype might be technically correct but when we hear the word "stereotype", we all know that it has a negative meaning these days.

And I don't agree that people are reticent to say AAs are better basketball players for fear of pigeon-holing a large group of people. People are afraid to say something like that for fear of being seen as prejudice. We all know it and I'm not afraid to say it. And it's not like that's some kind of put-down. I would be afraid to pigeon-hole a large group based on one thing if it were something hateful or negative towards that group. Saying that AAs tend to be better than whites in basketball is not hateful but rather complimentary. And I don't think I'm being hateful to whites as well, a group of people I myself fall into-in fact, I was once a white basketball player. Again when something is true, it is true and we shouldn't be ashamed to state that.

In the end I'm sure we'll just agree to disagree. Peace.
 
SteveGarvey said:
Your definition of stereotype might be technically correct but when we hear the word "stereotype", we all know that it has a negative meaning these days.

And I don't agree that people are reticent to say AAs are better basketball players for fear of pigeon-holing a large group of people. People are afraid to say something like that for fear of being seen as prejudice. We all know it and I'm not afraid to say it. And it's not like that's some kind of put-down. I would be afraid to pigeon-hole a large group based on one thing if it were something hateful or negative towards that group. Saying that AAs tend to be better than whites in basketball is not hateful but rather complimentary. And I don't think I'm being hateful to whites as well, a group of people I myself fall into-in fact, I was once a white basketball player. Again when something is true, it is true and we shouldn't be ashamed to state that.

In the end I'm sure we'll just agree to disagree. Peace.
Click to expand...

Fair enough.

My final word is that even "positive" sterotypes can be harmful. That is why I posted that video from the Office. Same goes for saying that Asians are good at math, or American Indians are more spiritual, or that women never think of sex. Even if we take the black-white dichotomy out of this, you can see how assuming these things about these groups can be harmful (Oh Mr. Chang, I bet you can figure out the tip in your head).

You say that if something is true, we shouldn't be ashamed to say it. Well, it depends on what you're saying. If you're saying that most professional basketball players are black, that's true. If you're saying that if you want a better basketball team, you need to get more blacks, that is not true. Everyone knows correlation does not imply causation. Your entire argument rests on a logical fallacy.
 
Iowafarmgirl said:
Fair enough.

My final word is that even "positive" sterotypes can be harmful. That is why I posted that video from the Office. Same goes for saying that Asians are good at math, or American Indians are more spiritual, or that women never think of sex. Even if we take the black-white dichotomy out of this, you can see how assuming these things about these groups can be harmful (Oh Mr. Chang, I bet you can figure out the tip in your head).

You say that if something is true, we shouldn't be ashamed to say it. Well, it depends on what you're saying. If you're saying that most professional basketball players are black, that's true. If you're saying that if you want a better basketball team, you need to get more blacks, that is not true. Everyone knows correlation does not imply causation. Your entire argument rests on a logical fallacy.
Click to expand...

This is my final word as well. I never said that you have to have blacks to make a better basketball team. In fact, I wouldn't say what the OP said at all because that wouldn't be appropriate. I'm only saying that if any of us were asked if we really thought AA players are more athletic BB players than whites, and we answered truthfully, we would say yes. I know I would and I suspect you would too, if you answered truthfully. So, what's wrong with that? Absolutely nothing.
 
Some people just want to be argumentative even when the issue is black and white (no pun intended). We desperately need athletic 6' 10" or taller post position players. I don't care what color they are just as long as they can get the job done, keep their grades up, and stay out of trouble. There are great basketball players from among many different races but proportionately blacks dominate the sport. Anyone who wants to argue against that observation doesn't have a leg to stand on.

If Fran can't recruit these type of players (black or white) then he and Barta might be able to work some kind of 2 for 1 deal out for U-haul services. I am hopeful that Fran will get the players we need and I am going to wait at least until the end of his third season before trying to assess whether we are going in the right direction.
 
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