The Lloyd Carr lesson as applied to KF-Would Mich do it that same way again???

[sirfarmsalot]

I have never really understood the logic behind the fire Ferentz fans. Consider since 1979 Iowa has had two coaches, won 5 big ten championships, played in 5 bcs level bowl games, had 9 losing seasons (only back to back losing records came in 79-80 and 98-00), and on and on. Iowa isn't a college football blue blood and probably never will be, the worst thing that Iowa could do is pull another Tom Davis and end up in football purgatory for 15 years.

 

[JonDMiller]

There is no doubt a lesson in Michigan and Tennessee, and in some ways Florida. While Ferentx isn't perfect, Iowa has been fortunate to have him and Hayden back to back. So much so that a few generations of fans have an over inflated opinion of this job.

Tennessee and Michigan and top 10 all time winning percentage programs. They are not immune to the 'one bad hire'. Apparently Florida isn't either. Nor is USC. Texas is off. Etc

And some want to believe Iowa is beyond that?

This doesn't give Ferentz a free pass year to year and doesn't mean it can have better results with someone else. But I'd wager the chances of the next hire performing below the Ferentz/Fry line is greater than that person outdoing them.

 

[Sooby]

Michigan losing to App State, in many ways, was the last season for Lloyd Carr.
If I remember, I think it was announced after the Ohio State game, that Carr was going to be let go, but would be allowed to coach the bowl game.

Michigan, Nebraska and Tennessee thought because they were Michigan, Nebraska, Tennessee, that they could get any coach they wanted. They all ended up on settling on their 5th and later picks.

 

[uihawk82]

Michigan losing to App State, in many ways, was the last season for Lloyd Carr.
If I remember, I think it was announced after the Ohio State game, that Carr was going to be let go, but would be allowed to coach the bowl game.

Michigan, Nebraska and Tennessee thought because they were Michigan, Nebraska, Tennessee, that they could get any coach they wanted. They all ended up on settling on their 5th and later picks.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I think Mich thought they could get Les Miles but I think Les Miles knows it is easier for him to recruit at LSU

 

[hawkeyebob62]

I dont know or remember all the goings on with Lloyd Carr's removal as Mich head coach, except he was losing too much to OSU and UM was like 8-4 or 9-3 Carr's last year.

But looking back UM really screwed the pooch as they say by the probably knee jerk reaction of firing him and trying to shift to Rich Rod's offense. Now Brady Hoke is having a struggle as I have never seen Mich have since probably the mid to late 60's under our beloved Bump Elliott.

I have voiced my displeasure with KFs use of timeouts, not going for it on 4[SUP]th[/SUP] down sometimes, not blitzing and mixing it up. But Fire Ferentz, come on, even some people yesterday were calling in saying to Fire Ferentz.
If this season would have been 3-9 and next year 4-8 then I would be for change.
But just look at Michigan. They fired Lloyd Carr or “moved him to a VP job in the AD deptâ€￾ if you want to describe it that way and then Carr and the Wolverines went out and blasted a good Florida team in a bowl game. I think that was the last show of power Michigan has had since Carr’s departure.
Be careful if you fire Ferentz without a good plan.

First, Lloyd Carr was NOT "fired". RichRod WAS "fired". While LC may have been forced out, officially, he "retired".

And expectations at Michigan, both within the school and by the media and public, are different than they are at IOWA, although the level of delusion one can see on this board alone should give any sane person cause to buy some survival provisions (imagine someone like Ghost or Thunder living next door to you with eight beers and a double-shot of Jack in the bloodstream while losing to a Fresno State or TCU!).

We are still a ways from "firing KF", JD Miller's newly-acquired bipolar view on the subject notwithstanding.

 

[uihawk82]

First, Lloyd Carr was NOT "fired". RichRod WAS "fired". While LC may have been forced out, officially, he "retired".

I never said Carr was fired, I said removed and I said in one post he was moved into a athletic dept position, VP or consultant. I also said he was forced out which he was because he did not want to stop being the head coach.

I am sure after the season the Mich AD and Carr sat down and maybe Carr was given the choice of being fired or maybe accepting a buyout and graciously riding into the sunset.

Carr was never officially fired but he didnt want to quit either. Call it what you want.

 

[JonDMiller]

We are still a ways from "firing KF", JD Miller's newly-acquired bipolar view on the subject notwithstanding.

Kirk isn;t getting fired. Nor have I ever advocated for that.

That said, I certainly admit to feeling a bit bi-polar this year on Iowa football, like I did 2007-2008. No doubt about it.

And I've been thinking all along that the old adage about not staying anywhere longer than 10 years as a coach is so spot on, because after a while, the things that folks used to respect and see as signs of strength and stability turn into targets for derision.

 

[uihawk82]

Kirk isn;t getting fired. Nor have I ever advocated for that.

That said, I certainly admit to feeling a bit bi-polar this year on Iowa football, like I did 2007-2008. No doubt about it.

And I've been thinking all along that the old adage about not staying anywhere longer than 10 years as a coach is so spot on, because after a while, the things that folks used to respect and see as signs of strength and stability turn into targets for derision.

This adage goes for city managers, public admin managers, and other leaders/directors because it is human nature that people get pizzed at them and jealous, etc

 

[HawksMN]

good post. Part of Michigan's mistake was their desire to let Rodriguez completely rejigger their program to a full on spread and a 3-3-5 defense, neither of which a program like Michigan needs to rely on. With those changes, Michigan stopped recruiting its historic type of ball players and a lot of the in state talent has moved to Sparty. Hoke called a real turd of a game yesterday, though. That program looks like it has fallen a long way.

Hoke can call a 2nd turd in a couple weeks if he wants, too.

 

[hawkeyebob62]

Kirk isn;t getting fired. Nor have I ever advocated for that.

That said, I certainly admit to feeling a bit bi-polar this year on Iowa football, like I did 2007-2008. No doubt about it.

And I've been thinking all along that the old adage about not staying anywhere longer than 10 years as a coach is so spot on, because after a while, the things that folks used to respect and see as signs of strength and stability turn into targets for derision.

I can buy the 10-year argument Jon, but it's a new phenomenon. It certainly didn't apply in the days of Woody Hayes, Bo Schembechler, Joe Paterno, Bobby Bowden, et. al.

For folks who look at this year and tear their hair out, I can automatically say, "New Generation Fan". We routinely went through this in the 1980s and some of the 1990s. Good games followed by head-scratchers, dumb penalties killing drives, etc.

If Kirk went 10-2 the next 5 years, years 4 and 5 would be brutal on these boards after a loss. If he dropped to 9-3 or 8-4 for year 6, absolute riot gear situation.

 

[uihawk82]

I can buy the 10-year argument Jon, but it's a new phenomenon. It certainly didn't apply in the days of Woody Hayes, Bo Schembechler, Joe Paterno, Bobby Bowden, et. al.

For folks who look at this year and tear their hair out, I can automatically say, "New Generation Fan". We routinely went through this in the 1980s and some of the 1990s. Good games followed by head-scratchers, dumb penalties killing drives, etc.

If Kirk went 10-2 the next 5 years, years 4 and 5 would be brutal on these boards after a loss. If he dropped to 9-3 or 8-4 for year 6, absolute riot gear situation.

Good points as some fans expect to win every game. HIstorically at Iowa I would love to see a bell curve centered around 9 wins, a curve with a narrow distribution and slightly skewed to the higher win seasons. If Iowa played a total round robin schedule back in the original Big 10 the odds were they would lose to Mich and OSU, be in the middle of the pack anywhere with 4-7 wins, a record of 7-2, 6-3 down to 4-5. !985 and 2002 only come around once in a while at Iowa

 

[hawkeyebob62]

Good points as some fans expect to win every game. HIstorically at Iowa I would love to see a bell curve centered around 9 wins, a curve with a narrow distribution and slightly skewed to the higher win seasons. If Iowa played a total round robin schedule back in the original Big 10 the odds were they would lose to Mich and OSU, be in the middle of the pack anywhere with 4-7 wins, a record of 7-2, 6-3 down to 4-5. !985 and 2002 only come around once in a while at Iowa

Definitely. People forget that Hayden Fry began the trend of "breaking" the Big 2/Little 8 that was the Big 10 in the late 1960s to early 1980s. I think 8-4 is a reasonable "every year" expectation/average. I think anyone wjho EVER predicts us to go 12-0 is either nuts or clairvoyant. Our margin for error simply makes 12-0 as long on odds as a human being can comprehend.

That said, 4-8 seasons are also a rarity, and 6-6 and 7-5 seasons will get old if it becomes the norm. But "expecting" 10 wins is irrational. Expecting it because of salary is delusional. Bringing up salary every week on these boards is class envy. Complaining about salary makes one a socialist commie type!

A bell curve based around 9 wins--the tighter the better, of course!--would be very nice for the average Iowa fan.

 

[INTIMIDATORHawk]

You are correct and 82 is also correct but he should've named the thread The Philip Fulmer Lesson, because the Tennessee mistake was so much worse. Michigan replaced their successful coach with a Lickliter type, a guy who was successful somewhere else but just didn't work well for them. Tennessee fired a coach who won almost 10 games per year, six division titles, two conference titles and a national title, and replaced him with a guy who had coached the Raiders to about a .300 record and had never been a college head coach (and when he bolted, they hired someone arguably even less proven and less qualified).

That was 82's point: don't fire your accomplished coach just because, and then replace him with just anyone. I don't think any of us would be upset if Barta fired the coach tomorrow because he has someone like Bob Stoops on the line. What's more likely is he fires Ferentz, as OP said, without a good plan, then we end up with someone like Derek Dooley and soon enough we are where Purdue is now.

This thread is full of some really great comments! I'm glad to see some reasonable minds come together and discuss this topic.

I'm a Ferentz supporter, because I still think his upside is better than an uncertain future with a new coach. I read the comment that I bolded, and initially thought that I would be fairly content with the idea to move on from KF if and only if they had a big name coach coming to replace him.

Then I thought of Minnesota Basketball and Tubby Smith. TS didn't do poorly with the Gophers, and some would argue that he should have been given more time. Ultimately though, I think EVERYONE expected he would do more than he did. Was he successful there, or did that hire backfire?

 

[HawkIPA]

KF was partially UM's choice. It was mostly Sally Mason and Carr who wanted him.

Pretty sure you meant Mary Sue Coleman.

 

[BSpringsteen]

Here's the difference to me. Mich and Tenn are trying to win national titles, and as lousy as they are and as far away as they are from that, they set their goals high.

I get the impression that while obviously KF wants to win every game, that his goals are for a nice 8-4 season. I don't get the impression that he is ever shooting for the moon or really has any desire to.

I don't hate Ferentz, and wouldn't can him right now if I were Barta. But there are a fatal flaw or two within the infrastructure of Iowa football that will prevent us from having 10 win seasons with any kind of regularity.

I also disagree that the next coach will have a harder time than KF reaching success. If there is one thing to be thankful for, it's that we've evntered the arms race of CFB and whomever our next coach is, the investments that have been made in the program give him a far better chance to be successful.

 

[1standgoalat1]

I dont know or remember all the goings on with Lloyd Carr's removal as Mich head coach, except he was losing too much to OSU and UM was like 8-4 or 9-3 Carr's last year.

But looking back UM really screwed the pooch as they say by the probably knee jerk reaction of firing him and trying to shift to Rich Rod's offense. Now Brady Hoke is having a struggle as I have never seen Mich have since probably the mid to late 60's under our beloved Bump Elliott.

I have voiced my displeasure with KFs use of timeouts, not going for it on 4[SUP]th[/SUP] down sometimes, not blitzing and mixing it up. But Fire Ferentz, come on, even some people yesterday were calling in saying to Fire Ferentz.
If this season would have been 3-9 and next year 4-8 then I would be for change.
But just look at Michigan. They fired Lloyd Carr or “moved him to a VP job in the AD deptâ€￾ if you want to describe it that way and then Carr and the Wolverines went out and blasted a good Florida team in a bowl game. I think that was the last show of power Michigan has had since Carr’s departure.
Be careful if you fire Ferentz without a good plan.

This is a great thread. My examples are Purdue, Illinois, Iowa State, and Iowa history. Michigan is a good example becaue0 it shows that even the elite are close to the edge.

This thread should be required reading for "new generation fans".

 

[1standgoalat1]

I dont know or remember all the goings on with Lloyd Carr's removal as Mich head coach, except he was losing too much to OSU and UM was like 8-4 or 9-3 Carr's last year.

But looking back UM really screwed the pooch as they say by the probably knee jerk reaction of firing him and trying to shift to Rich Rod's offense. Now Brady Hoke is having a struggle as I have never seen Mich have since probably the mid to late 60's under our beloved Bump Elliott.

I have voiced my displeasure with KFs use of timeouts, not going for it on 4[SUP]th[/SUP] down sometimes, not blitzing and mixing it up. But Fire Ferentz, come on, even some people yesterday were calling in saying to Fire Ferentz.
If this season would have been 3-9 and next year 4-8 then I would be for change.
But just look at Michigan. They fired Lloyd Carr or “moved him to a VP job in the AD dept” if you want to describe it that way and then Carr and the Wolverines went out and blasted a good Florida team in a bowl game. I think that was the last show of power Michigan has had since Carr’s departure.
Be careful if you fire Ferentz without a good plan.

This is a great thread. My examples are Purdue, Illinois, Iowa State, and Iowa history. Michigan is a good example because it shows that even the elite are close to the edge.

This thread should be required reading for "new generation fans".

 

[1977Hawkeye]

This thread is full of some really great comments! I'm glad to see some reasonable minds come together and discuss this topic.

I'm a Ferentz supporter, because I still think his upside is better than an uncertain future with a new coach. I read the comment that I bolded, and initially thought that I would be fairly content with the idea to move on from KF if and only if they had a big name coach coming to replace him.

Then I thought of Minnesota Basketball and Tubby Smith. TS didn't do poorly with the Gophers, and some would argue that he should have been given more time. Ultimately though, I think EVERYONE expected he would do more than he did. Was he successful there, or did that hire backfire?

Agree totally. If Iowa (or any school for that matter) has something more or less worked out with another coach so that they'd know what they are getting when making a move, that's one thing. But if you just fire your coach and go out there assuming you can land someone better, that's when you're playing with fire. If you ask me, it was the latter case when Minnesota fired Tubby judging by how long it took them to make a hire.. My prediction is that it isn't going to end well for them and, in time, a lot of people up north are going to wish they had Tubby back on their sidelines.

I wouldn't say that hiring Tubby exactly backfired.. Looking at they were under Monson, Tubby got them into the NCAA's a couple of times and they were competitive, although I did feel they underachieved a bit given some of the talent he brought in up there. But to expect him to deliver at Minnesota anything close to what he did at UK is just nuts IMO..

If Iowa were to simply fire KF without already having a pretty good idea of who the next coach will be, then I could easily see this program reaching 1980's Iowa State levels. So you have to be careful. As has been pointed out, no school is immune to suffering from a bad hire, but schools like Iowa, especially so.

 

[Montanahawk]

I dont know or remember all the goings on with Lloyd Carr's removal as Mich head coach, except he was losing too much to OSU and UM was like 8-4 or 9-3 Carr's last year.

But looking back UM really screwed the pooch as they say by the probably knee jerk reaction of firing him and trying to shift to Rich Rod's offense. Now Brady Hoke is having a struggle as I have never seen Mich have since probably the mid to late 60's under our beloved Bump Elliott.

I have voiced my displeasure with KFs use of timeouts, not going for it on 4[SUP]th[/SUP] down sometimes, not blitzing and mixing it up. But Fire Ferentz, come on, even some people yesterday were calling in saying to Fire Ferentz.
If this season would have been 3-9 and next year 4-8 then I would be for change.
But just look at Michigan. They fired Lloyd Carr or “moved him to a VP job in the AD deptâ€￾ if you want to describe it that way and then Carr and the Wolverines went out and blasted a good Florida team in a bowl game. I think that was the last show of power Michigan has had since Carr’s departure.
Be careful if you fire Ferentz without a good plan.

As someone who is also a UM fan I can say unequivocally that he was not removed. He and the then AD, Bill Martin, had a good relationship and Martin wanted him to stay longer. From then insiders Carr had already made the decision to retire prior to the 2007 season and been rumored to be considering retirement years before that. In fact if you're familiar with the behind the scenes machinations at UM over RR you'd know that Carr hated RR from fairly early on and encouraged some recruits from not playing for him. Carr did a lot to undermine RR(and RR was a poor fit who didn't need much help in that department) among the UM insiders. He was able to do that because he was still influential. I know there's some thread of thought out there by national media types that believe this like they similarly believe that Tom Brady didn't start every game his senior year. People rarely fact check. Similarly many non-Iowa fans believe any Iowa's success is due to steroids. People get something like that in their heads and the facts be damned.

 

[JHHawk]

Here's the difference to me. Mich and Tenn are trying to win national titles, and as lousy as they are and as far away as they are from that, they set their goals high.

I get the impression that while obviously KF wants to win every game, that his goals are for a nice 8-4 season. I don't get the impression that he is ever shooting for the moon or really has any desire to.

I don't hate Ferentz, and wouldn't can him right now if I were Barta. But there are a fatal flaw or two within the infrastructure of Iowa football that will prevent us from having 10 win seasons with any kind of regularity.

I also disagree that the next coach will have a harder time than KF reaching success. If there is one thing to be thankful for, it's that we've evntered the arms race of CFB and whomever our next coach is, the investments that have been made in the program give him a far better chance to be successful.

What gives you the impression that KF does not desperately want to win every single game the Hawks play? What exactly gives you that impression? You think he is conservative on game day because he does not really want to win that day, so he takes a knee so that he does not win? This is simply ridiculous. KF is a competitive guy in an extremely competitive business. As they say, hey give the other guy 85 schollys too, you know? So, in that game vs OSU, KF really did not want to win that game as much as Meyer? BS! That's like saying that Dale Sveum did not want to win every game as cub manager this year....desire to win is not the difference...it is usually talent on the field.