The Lloyd Carr lesson as applied to KF-Would Mich do it that same way again???

[ThunderHawk]

The frustrating thing about Iowa under Ferentz is that there are highly visible, easily correctable flaws which repeatedly bite us in the @$$. It's not his necessarily his "conservative nature." It's the pathological clock mismanagement, the maddening predictability and lack of creativity in certain situations, the inability/refusal to maximize touches for playmakers, the fake punts, etc. It's not a fundamentally flawed program. It's a solid program that does stupid crap that costs wins. It's Ferentz being set in his ways when a few tweaks could make a big difference. I suppose this is the case with all coaches to some extent, but with Kurt it seems especially pronounced, to the point where our own homer radio announcers get sarcastic and snarky about it.

 

[BSpringsteen]

What gives you the impression that KF does not desperately want to win every single game the Hawks play? What exactly gives you that impression? You think he is conservative on game day because he does not really want to win that day, so he takes a knee so that he does not win? This is simply ridiculous. KF is a competitive guy in an extremely competitive business. As they say, hey give the other guy 85 schollys too, you know? So, in that game vs OSU, KF really did not want to win that game as much as Meyer? BS! That's like saying that Dale Sveum did not want to win every game as cub manager this year....desire to win is not the difference...it is usually talent on the field.

Holy reading comprehension Batman!

You obviously failed to read the part about how he "obviously wants to win every game."

I think he really has a macro look at the entire season - he's far more concerned than how we end up than about the day to day minutia. That's fine and dandy but a lot of the conservative decisions that drive everyone here crazy, and a lot of the close losses are as a result of this.

I think this approach is why we more often than not look at a 7-5 season and think about how easily it should and could have been 9-3. I also think this approach is why we have so many players in the NFL.

Pick your poison.

 

[homes]

The truth of the matter is that there are very few elite programs in college football, and reality check, Iowa is not one of them. Schools flash for a few years, then recede. Iowa is in that group. They are in a recession now, but coming out of it, not heading into it, in my opinion. As many have noted, a bad head coaching hire can put a program on the outs, and can make it even harder to recover, even for the elite programs - look at Texas before Mack Brown, or Oklahoma before Stoops, or USC before Carroll (although when those teams slip, they don't dip as far, but it's all relative).

Ferentz has been a good coach for Iowa; I see success in the next couple of years, and with some good recruiting classes, maybe even longer, with some very good seasons mixed in. Unless he just gets tired of it, I see him staying through the duration of his contract. Some may not like that, but I see that as the most likely course for the program. And in the end, if that plays out, that will be the best thing long term for Iowa football, because it will mean Iowa will have been sufficiently successful to turn a healthy program over to the next coach. Other than those noisy few who think Iowa should be annually vying for National Titles and accept nothing less, who wouldn't want that outcome for Iowa football?

 

[JHHawk]

Holy reading comprehension Batman!

You obviously failed to read the part about how he "obviously wants to win every game."

I think he really has a macro look at the entire season - he's far more concerned than how we end up than about the day to day minutia. That's fine and dandy but a lot of the conservative decisions that drive everyone here crazy, and a lot of the close losses are as a result of this.

I think this approach is why we more often than not look at a 7-5 season and think about how easily it should and could have been 9-3. I also think this approach is why we have so many players in the NFL.

Pick your poison.

You said that KF does not want to win every game like Tenn. and Michigan, not me. That means that KF does not want to win every game. I guess if you are saying that KF is not willing to look the other way with agents paying his players, and is not willing to oversign like in the SEC and cut players instead of keeping them for 4 years as promised,...ok, I agree that he is not willing to go dirty to win a national title....you got me there. He simply refuses to cheat, or be unfair to players...and that is his worst failing in some fans eyes. But outside of that he does work his arse off to win every single game, which is how you win national titles. I guess if he was a foaming at the mouth maniac during games some fans would conclude he wants to win more than they think he does now. Well, he is just not a foaming at the mouth guy, and maybe that hurts him in the eyes of fans...but if he tried to be, he would look phony. So, when you say he is content to lose 4 games a year, yea, that means he is not doing everything possible to win every game...and that is not true.

 

[nationalchamps]

Good points as some fans expect to win every game. HIstorically at Iowa I would love to see a bell curve centered around 9 wins, a curve with a narrow distribution and slightly skewed to the higher win seasons. If Iowa played a total round robin schedule back in the original Big 10 the odds were they would lose to Mich and OSU, be in the middle of the pack anywhere with 4-7 wins, a record of 7-2, 6-3 down to 4-5. !985 and 2002 only come around once in a while at Iowa

Why shouldn't we? The players certainly do, so why not the fans?

 

[SwirlinLingerie]

For me, one of the great lessons from the Michigan coaching change is that while the school was among college football’s elite, it was definitely amateur hour when it came time to hire a new coach.

There was no clear process in place. The school wasn’t ready to pay a big-time salary, nor did they understand the need to (they arrogantly and mistakenly thought the best coaches would line up to coach Michigan). The administration also didn’t have the resources in place to assist Rodriguez in dealing with the media and top donors. In many ways, they failed him. And then you had the athletic department and Carr (as another posted outlined) undermining Rodriguez from the outset.

From everything I’ve read, Michigan wasn’t exactly ready for prime time.

That’s part of the reason I’m wary of what will come after Ferentz. We can argue about game day details (sure, he is vulnerable there), but Ferentz has built a very solid program due to his self-awareness, intelligence, genuine personality and character. One of the posters mentioned that at least Iowa has joined the arms race of college football. Ferentz is a huge component of that, maybe the largest. He has always had good relationships with the university’s presidents and administrators, his athletic directors, the alumni association, and influential donors, which has allowed the athletic department to acquire the resources (both internally and externally) to keep up with other top 25 programs.

A less likeable, less trustworthy, less savvy coach might be able to do the same by simply winning more games, but that’s a pretty tall order at Iowa over 15 years.

In addition to Michigan, I think the University of Washington provides another good example. Don James and the Husky program had a lot of similarities to Hayden Fry and the Hawkeyes throughout the ‘80s and early ‘90s. When the Huskies transitioned away from James, there was no Kirk Ferentz to maintain/elevate the program. Instead, the program underwent a series of coaching changes, bottoming out with Ty Willingham and an 0-12 record. How did they get there?

When I first moved to Seattle in ’08, I attended a Husky game and joked to my friends that it felt like a high school stadium. Old, open air concrete concourses…bleacher seats…no real sky boxes…you could kind of wander around and sit anywhere you wanted. This was a program that had won a national title in the ‘90s.

I don’t know all the details, but I think the bottom line was that after James left, there was no central figure that kept the athletic department, the administration, former players and donors all on the same page. There was a disconnect, and the program clearly fell behind (almost hopelessly) in the arms race of the sport. They may or may not have gotten their man in Steve Sarkisian, but at least he was part of the solution to upgrade facilities and improve relations across a diverse set of stakeholders. And yet the program is still trying to fight and scratch its way out of three consecutive 7-6 seasons.

So while Iowa’s program might feel stale at times, I’m appreciate of the program Ferentz has been able to maintain. It’s not perfect, but overall, it feels healthy. If the next coach isn’t as good with all of the stakeholders as Fry and Ferentz, it could be a rough ride.

 

[JonDMiller]

Great thread...refreshing really...differing viewpoints, no name calling or stupidity.

 

[SpiderRico]

To me, the biggest change in fandom over the last 25 years or so is the "entitlement" mentality. Some of that is a product of the ever increasing costs to attend games. Some of it is the globalization of college football. There was a time, before internet and cable tv, that you rarely knew what was going on in the SEC or the Pac-10, etc. All games were regional, for the most part, so you were simply judging your team against other teams in the region. Now they get judged against the entire country. But a lot of it is simply a product of our times. Young kids coming out of college feel entitled to make their own hours, get pay commiserate with having worked that job for 5-10 years, get the corner office, etc and complain like crazy when they don't get those things. So, it only makes sense that these same people would feel entitled to having their favorite team meet their own expectations and then b!tch and moan when they don't. Of course, when you turn that same microscope in on them......

 

[JHHawk]

Yes, there are tons of examples of powerful programs getting it wrong in replacing football coaches, and only a handful where they got it correct right out of the box. Bama was in the wilderness after Gene Stallings. Texas..oh yes. OKlahoma before Stoops...remember John Bland? USC before Carroll. Ron Zook at Florida? FSU seems to have done ok after Bowden. Not many others pull it off. The known(KF) is less scary than the unknown(Beckman).....as has been said, head football coach at major programs these days is more than x's and o's. It is being a CEO of a major business with many facets beyond just game day.

 

[uihawk82]

As someone who is also a UM fan I can say unequivocally that he was not removed.

I did mistype when I said he was "fired" but my impression through the media was that Carr was surprised by the change and he didnt want to retire.

 

[Montanahawk]

Great thread...refreshing really...differing viewpoints, no name calling or stupidity.

It has some of the better posts I've read on here in a while, but the basic premise of the thread is completely wrong. Carr was not forced out at UM. Was not. So, while it's interesting to consider whether a very good but flawed coach deserves more, it's not true that Carr was made to leave, asked or it was suggested that he leave. Quite the contrary he was implored to stay. As a long-time UM I remember people who knew Carr saying he was considering retiring. This was years before 2007. Carr get's the largest retirement check in the Michigan state public system. He'd been working for Michigan in some capacity for 30 years when he retired. It's just in this day and age coaches rarely have the opportunity to retire so people think he must have been fired. Not so here.

 

[uihawk82]

Why shouldn't we? The players certainly do, so why not the fans?

haha, funny, I WANT the hawks to win every game but I dont expect them to win every game. sematics I guess

 

[uihawk82]

It has some of the better posts I've read on here in a while, but the basic premise of the thread is completely wrong.

I did some more reading on Carr leaving and I was wrong, but the premise of the thread, looking at a lot of teams that have fired coaches without a plan, is still correct.

Sorry to bruise some UM egos. By the way MontanaHawk did you go to the U of I?

 

[Montanahawk]

I did mistype when I said he was "fired" but my impression through the media was that Carr was surprised by the change and he didnt want to retire.

The "media" was flat wrong. The media, though, in this case was mainly sports talk show announcers not familiar with UM. Most of the national media understood he wasn't pushed out. He wasn't pushed out in any way, shape, or form. He said he wanted to retire, the AD asked him to stay. He would not. He was tired from the job and it was obvious on his face the last couple of years.

FWIW-I agree with the posters who believe that Ferentz should stay. Most fans have a grass is always greener mentality and believe everything will turn out great if they have a new coach. One thing I learned from the RR hire is so much of being at a place is fit. If the coach is good but does not fit the place in attitude, in the way he handles that regions high school coaches, in knowledge of the recruiting areas, in selecting coordinators and assistants then he may be a very good-great hire one place and a terrible one another. So, even if you get a seemingly good coach he may not be good for your program and with Iowa I think that;s even more true than at a lot of schools...academically, regionally etc. If you got say Bobby Diaco. That would be potentially a great fit, but the list of good-great coordinators who fell flat on their faces at the HC job is a very long one.

 

[uihawk82]

If you got say Bobby Diaco. That would be potentially a great fit, but the list of good-great coordinators who fell flat on their faces at the HC job is a very long one.

Well perhaps one of the wisest moves KF did was to leave Iowa and be the head coach at Maine for several years.

Nothing says more on the resume than actually doing "it". Head coach has all the garbage and flak flying at them.

Rich Rod , my son and I have said, might have been much better off his first year at Mich staying somewhat with Michigan's personnel and running a more I formation CArr type offense while blending in a little bit of the spread.

But I dont think Rich Rod is the brightest bulb either.

 

[SpiderRico]

Well perhaps one of the wisest moves KF did was to leave Iowa and be the head coach at Maine for several years.

Nothing says more on the resume than actually doing "it". Head coach has all the garbage and flak flying at them.

Rich Rod , my son and I have said, might have been much better off his first year at Mich staying somewhat with Michigan's personnel and running a more I formation CArr type offense while blending in a little bit of the spread.

But I dont think Rich Rod is the brightest bulb either.

The interesting thing, though, is that he is doing better at Arizona right now than Hoke is at Michigan. Fit is so important.

 

[Montanahawk]

Well perhaps one of the wisest moves KF did was to leave Iowa and be the head coach at Maine for several years.

Nothing says more on the resume than actually doing "it". Head coach has all the garbage and flak flying at them.

Rich Rod , my son and I have said, might have been much better off his first year at Mich staying somewhat with Michigan's personnel and running a more I formation CArr type offense while blending in a little bit of the spread.

But I dont think Rich Rod is the brightest bulb either.

Right, RR really miscalculated not going to a pro-style to begin with but either way he was likely to fail in year one. UM was top heavy in talent in 2007. They had seniors Mike Hart, Chad Henne, and John Long. The rest of the team was very...meh and when they left there wasn't a whole lot of typical UM talent in the cupboard. One that was, Ryan Mallett, the back up and heir to Henne left when RR took over because he wanted no part of the spread and having spent his entire freshman year complaining about Michigan weather and the northern culture(he's from the Arkansas-Texas border...ironic that in the ended up behind a UM alum at QB and in Boston). So, he was effectively gone with RR's announcement and no promises of featuring him would have likely dissuaded him. So, that left to bad QB's..Threet and Sheridan. Now add that prior to RR's take over UM had suffered unusually high attrition in the previous three recruiting classes and voila. You have the makings of a full on disaster and that's not even getting into some bad decisions by RR, and some near immeditate and intense opposition to him by influential people in the athletic department. It was a perfect storm of how to destroy a nascent coaching regime. At any rate there's a whole lot to it, but even in good circumstances a place like Iowa is going to be a fairly hard place to be successful at. You really need to be a good fit for the place and a good coach.

 

[Montanahawk]

I did some more reading on Carr leaving and I was wrong, but the premise of the thread, looking at a lot of teams that have fired coaches without a plan, is still correct.

Sorry to bruise some UM egos. By the way MontanaHawk did you go to the U of I?

I took some grad classes there when I lived in Iowa City in 1999 but then left for the west. So, not a grad just a fan, and my ego wasn't hurt. It's simply nawing to hear people talk about one of your programs and they don't really know what they're talking about just repeating misinformation. I quit posting on a UM board because of one too many "Ferentz is a f**king joke" and the ever popular explanation for over achievement, "Iowa/MSU/Stanford is on steroids" comments. Following two teams has been an interesting little insight for me into general fan mentality. I attribute it to a rough kind of tribalism. They bad, we good. If nothing else it's helped soften my opinions of Ohio State. At least when I read something negative about them I don't now assume it's true, or at least not completely true unless credible sources verify it. Although, yeah...it probably is

 

[hawkeyebob62]

Well perhaps one of the wisest moves KF did was to leave Iowa and be the head coach at Maine for several years.

Nothing says more on the resume than actually doing "it". Head coach has all the garbage and flak flying at them.

Rich Rod , my son and I have said, might have been much better off his first year at Mich staying somewhat with Michigan's personnel and running a more I formation CArr type offense while blending in a little bit of the spread.

But I dont think Rich Rod is the brightest bulb either.

Hey, if it weren't for RichRod, we wouldn't have gotten John Weinke, just like Wisconsin would haven't gotten Ben Brust if we had kept Lickliter.

I think RRs biggest problem, in the end, was getting trounced in his last bowl game. Win that, or even look competitive, and he might have lasted longer.

The other issue that "followed" him was the whole West Virginia buyout deal. Nobody in the media even pretended to look at it from his point of view. Not that I cared then, or care now, but he certainly didn't walk into Ann Arbor in shiny armor.

EDIT: On the other hand, Dennard Robinson may have been what saved him from an even earlier exit. Hard to say with 100% accuracy, I guess.

And I hate saying it, but Hayden didn't get the best sendoff. Had KF not gone 4-19 his first two years, Hayden might have been forgotten pretty quickly. But, being the class act he is, he was one of the first to come to KFs defense right out of the gate. That, too, may have saved KF from an early exit.

 

[hawkinn3]

Michigan has one NC after 1948, and they split it. They are not an elite program, they have not been an elite program since the early 20th century but their fans seem to think they should be in the NC picture every year. Anyone who coaches at Michigan can only be there for the money because you know going in you will never last. The goals the program and the fans have in mind for you are impossible to obtain. Iowa fans, I dare say, would be fine with a consistent 8-9 wins every year. That is the difference.