SteveGarvey
Well-Known Member
Without play-makers at receiver our ceiling for success will always be limited. It just will.
Wide receivers with speed needed
- Thread starter Floridahawkeye1
- Start date
ArvadaHawk
Well-Known Member
By most all accounts from the "experts" or "pundits" Iowa WR's had problems getting separation this season. By your definition, that would be 1 or 2 steps. The lack of ability to gain separation allows teams to comfortably blitz because they know the qb will either, 1) risk an ill-advised throw, thus having a potential interception, 2) get sacked, 3) throw an incomplete pass, 4) (somehow) throw a complete pass to an un-open receiver, or 5) tuck it and run. Of those 5 outcomes, 4 benefit the defense because the receivers couldn't gain separation, which is to say they couldn't get open.
Getting separation comes in various forms in various situations: 1) quick twitch off the line of scrimmage against a tight man coverage, 2) speed to run past a defender in man coverage, 3) strength to "bully" your way open in man coverage. Iowa doesn't successfully recruit these types of kids. Of the 2015 WR's that played, which of these encompass these qualities?
T. Smith
J. Smith
M. Vandeberg
J. Hillyer
R. McCarron
A. Stone
T and J Smith had straight line speed and could typically get open deep. Vandeberg was very good at getting open against zones, but that tailed off midway through the season and CJ had to start relying on Kittle on 3rd downs. So the need for speed and play makers is real, at Iowa. And, they need to be utilized. If you were a top rated WR coming out of high school, would you pick a team that liked to throw the ball more than run, where you didn't have to be an excellent run blocker before you saw game action, or a school that typically runs the ball first and you won't see game action until you've become an excellent run blocker?
SteveGarvey
Well-Known Member
HawkeyeShane
Well-Known Member
Coming out of spring ball Tevaun seemed very upbeat and impressed when talking about how fast the youngsters are...other than Jereminic most of them were redshirted or cut their teeth on special teams this past season. Hopefully they've all been working on their route running and timing with CJ (and blocking techniques) so we'll all be pleasantly surprised with the group next season.
ClintonIAfan
Well-Known Member
These guys are fast and they do their jobs well. Just look at Emmanuel Egwo's track record in high school for example. The University of Iowa is a great place for players to come no matter what position they play.
The University of Iowa has state of the art facilities and a proven record of developing student athletes. The offense tends to be a balanced and pro style offense. Skills and development gained translate well to the next level. If I were I highly rated wide receiver coming out of high school I would not hesitate to become a Hawkeye!
The University of Iowa has state of the art facilities and a proven record of developing student athletes. The offense tends to be a balanced and pro style offense. Skills and development gained translate well to the next level. If I were I highly rated wide receiver coming out of high school I would not hesitate to become a Hawkeye!
ClintonIAfan
Well-Known Member
"Not getting seperation" is just something announcers say when there is an incompletion or a sack, similar to 'coverage sack', etc. It's just a catchy phrase to fill up the meaningless time that these announcers have. They say it about other teams receivers that we play, you just don't listen when it's about the other team because your too busy admiring how great our corners are covering. Name me all the times that other teams receivers got 'seperation' on our corners. The only completions our opposition had against us down the field were blown coverages, not their receivers getting separation. You see what you want to see, hear what you want hear, and believe what you want to believe. The 3rd down conversions you're talking about were to Kreiger/Coble, but you remember it the way you want to. And keep listening to those announcers, most of the time they are just rambling on so there is no dead air time and they have their 'go to comments' to fill up that time, not to make expert analysis of what's going on in the game. There's a announcer that I really believe doesn't know what to talk about during a game, except the SEC's speed. Seriously.
Do you think there is a deep route on every pass play? Do we see a lot of press man coverage? There is so much you don't see and don't know, but it's amusing how everyone wants to make an opinion and from their expert knowledge start throwing people under the bus. You don't know what you're talking about, so can't you just enjoy games and the Hawks? All you ever do is complain and criticise.
ArvadaHawk
Well-Known Member
So, your overall point is (besides being sarcastic) that separation doesn't exist, at all, unless a db makes a mistake. Okay, got it.
I never said "announcers" I said "experts and pundits." You are slipping down a slope of not being believable, simply because you do not want to admit that WR's first job is getting separation. It is entirely not believable that WR's getting open solely relies on a db making a mistake. If that were true, the forward pass would die-out, instead it is proliferating. The NFL is now a Pass First league. If the db's in the NFL are way better than in college, why would the NFL trend to a pass first league if the ONLY chance they have of completing a pass is based on a db making a mistake? Is it also true that running backs only gain yards if the defensive player makes a mistake?
I absolutely agree with one thing you did say. You believe what you want to believe. This is America. It is your right.
What pundits and experts? Direct quotes please. Talking heads like to use buzzwords like separation and lock-down, etc. but what does it really mean? I take a lot of these pundits about as seriously as I do Glen Beck. It's all entertainment. In man coverage in high level football, there is usually very little 'separation' from a defensive player unless they get mismatches (a slot on a LB, etc.), rubs routes, or a defender bites on a move. Nobody just runs away from anyone anymore, that's why the back-shoulder throw has become all the rage in college and the pros. In zone coverage it has nothing to do with 'separation' and all about finding windows in the zone. Hitting the TE's for first downs are almost always pivot routes. The backer or safety bites on the inside step which creates about a 2 ft. window for the QB to hit them on the pivot. I won't bore you with any more facts and information. Like you said, you'll believe what you want to believe.
As far as the NFL, the schemes have become so detailed and read oriented it would take forever to explain it, but they call so much at the line now, they're beating the coverage they read through their scheme, not the men.
But what I really don't understand is why you feel the need to tell a bunch of people that know as little as you do, what Iowa should be doing. What is the point? Do you think someone here is going to pass it on to the coaches? Do you think the coaches read these sites? All you do is complain no matter win, lose, good season, bad season, whatever, you just complain and complain. I don't know why you are such an unhappy and unappreciative person, but I feel bad for you. Hell, we could have won it all this year and you would be on here telling everyone here that they should have done better. Life is good, the Hawks are good. Try to enjoy it.
HawkeyeWalker
Well-Known Member
I don't think we are very far off on speed. More speed/quickness is always good but Many things play into separation. In no particular order as they are all important:
1) technique and route running
2) play calls and routes based on what the defense is doing
3) Oline giving the QB time
4) QB "throwing receiver open", ball placement
5) WR (burst, speed, strength, body control, etc)
Pure lack of speed alone is greatly overstated, imo
1) technique and route running
2) play calls and routes based on what the defense is doing
3) Oline giving the QB time
4) QB "throwing receiver open", ball placement
5) WR (burst, speed, strength, body control, etc)
Pure lack of speed alone is greatly overstated, imo
ArvadaHawk
Well-Known Member
ROFL! Someone disagree's with you and they are unhappy and insane? That is hilarious. Dude, what I've posted has been fundamentally correct in the game of football. You are taking an absolute stance and nothing is absolute. in your last post you said: "No one just runs away from anyone anymore..." except T. Smith did it all season long and twice in the B1G game against MSU. And as for the back shoulder throw, that is utilized when you know your WR can't beat a db with speed, alone, or you don't have a lot of field to work with and it mostly takes advantage of the db not being able to see the football because his back is to the qb. But if the WR could beat the db with speed, why would you throw a back shoulder? So, again, you need to stop writing in absolutes.
Look, let's agree to disagree on this. This is only going in circles, now.
It has nothing to do with you disagreeing with me and when did anyone say you were insane? I said you're unhappy because all you do is whine. Read your own posts sometime. Doesn't matter if I'm involved, you've been on a couple of these sites for years and all you do is complain and whine all the time, no matter what, and whether I comment or are even posting to the site. I haven't ever seen a post of yours that is fundamentally correct about anything. Example;
T. Smith ran away from MSU twice? LOL. What are you on 'Dude'? And how old are you that you call people 'dudes'? You're either 15 or a surfer/skateboarding guy apparently. lol. On T. Smith's TD the safety went to Vandy on the deep out and Smith gets half a step on the corner with no safety help and Smith pushes off with his right arm to get just enough 'separation' (one step) to make a catch. Yeah, he ran right by him. Lol. On the second long throw to him, Iowa ran the EXACT same route combination (skinny post, deep out) but this time the safety stays over the top and he and the corner bracket him (Smith) and he doesn't 'run by' anyone. He wasn't even open. CJ didn't read the safety on the second one and threw to the wrong guy as Vandy is WIDE OPEN on the deep out by 15 yds, because the safety stayed over the top of Smith. Jees, dude. Go back and look. And if CJ reads that play correctly, he hits the WIDE OPEN Vandy at their 35 yd. line and Vandy turns and runs it in untouched. Iowa scores there and MSU can't go on a long drive to win the game because they're 2 scores down. Iowa wins.
And absolutes? That is all you speak in unless someone calls you out. You can agree to disagree all you want, but I think I'll just ignore you because all you do is complain and you rarely know what you're talking about as I have just proven. The truths in the tape dude. I'm done with you, I am going to get back to my positive posts about our athletes and their future! Enjoy your misery.
deanvogs
Well-Known Member
We all get that that coverages play a big part in all of this, as well as reads by both the WR and QB. We understand all that, but the simple fact is the better caliber WR's "GET OPEN" more often than average WR do. They understand how to set the CB up in man coverage, they are quicker in and out of their breaks, and more precise on their route running. They understand how to find soft spots in the zone. Better WR "get open", "get separation" or whatever catch phrase of the week is with announcers. To think that WR only get open because of blown coverage is just a silly notion. The good WR see the coverage and understand what they then have to do to get open.
SpecialKHawk
Well-Known Member
I have to agree with some of the opinions that IckeHawk is making. That's not to say you do not have some really good counter points too.
What I agree with most from Icke's posts is that so many fans cling to what the TV talking heads say during a broadcast as the absolute truth. Their commentary is often filled with generic buzzwords to make themselves sound intelligent and is flat out lazy. It can even be coded with certain words dictated by the race of the player. Lots of bogus stuff from so many of these guys. All of that gets repeated by many fans as fact.
That is why the in-game experience remains so much better than at home on the TV. You can see the whole field and all 22 players at one time. This allows you to see the route trees used, defensive coverages, blitzes, pass protection, etc and just how darn tight the windows are on most options on every play. When you sit at home on your HD TV what you see is crystal clear but lacks the all-22 full field vision.
GrandpaHawk
Well-Known Member
Some of the best WR's playing in the NFL aren't your speed guys. They run great routes and set up the DB's with double moves.They know how to find the open area in the defense.Don't know if it's our scheme but would agree we need guys getting open more.Hopefully coaches and players can figure it out,if we could get the passing game going even better than what we did this last year look out it could be a lot of fun watching.I agree it's a lot different watching the game live vs on tv.I think we all can agree that the passing game was a big improvement from past years,just need to keep making it better.Go Hawks
If you have been reading my posts, you would see that I state there are different ways that receivers get open against different coverages and you make good points adding to that. NO WHERE have I ever stated that the only way receivers get open is blown coverage so I have no idea why you would make such a ridiculous statement.
No one is arguing that some WR's are better than others and we shouldn't always be trying to get playmakers at WR. The argument is that our WRs are slower than everyone else's or that we need faster ones, which is not necessarily true. Our receivers got open as much or more than every team we played and certainly caught more deep balls than we gave up, in fact, name one time that a receiver blew by our corners, so we can deduce by some of the poster's logic, that every team we played this year has no speed at receiver and they all need better and faster receivers. It's all failed logic friends.
And don't bring up the play in the Illini game because THAT WAS TOTALLY BLOWN COVERAGE as was the McCaffrey touchdown pass.
And I'll add, that you are correct that a lot of it is the QB's reads and I'll tell you right now, CJ doesn't read that well (which is why he didn't play over JR) and it got worse as the season went on. I already brought up the MSU game example, and I'll give you another one that is fresh in my mind from the Stanford game. Our first series on third down, CJ just locks in on the out to Smith which was never open, but he had vandy WIDE OPEN on a slant, and he didn't learn a damn thing from it, because he stared down the out again on our next drive with Smith wide open on a quick slant, and that one was returned for a TD and pretty much sealed the game. We have receivers open a lot, CJ has to do a better job of finding them and hopefully he will improve his SR year but with GD coaching him, I have my doubts. I love how everyone puts it all on the WR's and never on their golden boy CJ. Our receivers are better than GD's scheme or CJ reads make them look at times.
hawkeyebob62
Well-Known Member
I think as season went on, CJ didn't have adequate time to progress through all his reads...and like any QB, you develop tendencies some times.
trj
Well-Known Member
i will take it a step further.....I think it all started after he got beat up in the Pittsburgh game.
