Trust me folks, it can get a lot worse

[tubahawk]

Teams like Iowa, Wisconsin and Michigan State get their one to three times a decade of flirting with greatness, but at the end of the day, those programs are all second tier programs and they always will be.

Then how can we justify spending money and investing in facilities like a top 10 -15 program if we have no intentions or ability to be a top tier program?

 

[pmchawk]

If a team is a reflection of the coach I know who we need for a coach. Charlie Shean. #winning

 

[tubahawk]

"I'll never understand this logic."

Here, I'll help you:

Consistency, validity, soundness, and completeness

Among the important properties that logical systems can have:

• Consistency, which means that no theorem of the system contradicts another.
• Validity, which means that the system's rules of proof will never allow a false inference from true premises. A logical system has the property of soundness when the logical system has the property of validity and uses only premises that prove true (or, in the case of axioms, are true by definition).
• Completeness, of a logical system, which means that if a formula is true, it can be proven (if it is true, it is a theorem of the system).
• Soundness, the term soundness has multiple separate meanings, which creates a bit of confusion throughout the literature. Most commonly, soundness refers to logical systems, which means that if some formula can be proven in a system, then it is true in the relevant model/structure (if A is a theorem, it is true). This is the converse of completeness. A distinct, peripheral use of soundness refers to arguments, which means that the premises of a valid argument are true in the actual world.

Some logical systems do not have all four properties. As an example, Kurt Gödel's incompleteness theorems show that sufficiently complex formal systems of arithmetic cannot be consistent and complete;however, first-order predicate logics not extended by specific axioms to be arithmetic formal systems with equality can be complete and consistent.

I either need to start drinking or put down the drink before reading this again. All I got was something about how I need be consistent in my sampling of home brew in order to validate the alcohol content gets me completely drunk during the game therefore allowing me to pass out in complete soundness and not have to worry about how bad we are playing this year

 

[herkytime]

If you don't beat the teams you should beat get the **** out of the way and give the job to someone who can. YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME! PERIOD.

This weekend after we are getting slaughtered by Indi ******* ana. When a commercial comes on or about the time you want to puke after watching JVB throw another 3 yd pass on 3rd and 10 flip the channel to any other football game on. You will instantly see how football should be played. It's ******* amazing how much better it is. Watching Hawkeye football has been brutal and almost comical the past 3 years.

 

[okeefe4prez]

I don't know what your definition of "2nd tier is", but I would say Iowa is not even at that point right now.

To me, 2nd tier means a Top 25 program but not one of the powerhouses that are in the running for the BCS title game every year - that is the FIRST tier. Iowa is certainly at least a couple tiers below that, considering our teams are almost always unranked at the end of every season.

Three tiers, top, middle and bottom. Top tier in our conference is Michigan, PSU, OSU and Nebraska. Next tier is Iowa, Wisconsin, MSU and Purdue. Bottom tier is Northwestern, Illinois, Minnesota and Indiana. There can be movement between tiers and over a short period, teams can obviously rise and fall, and over the long run teams can rise and fall (e.g., Minnesota and PSU's sanctions will hurt them). Second tier doesn't mean you are going to finish in the top 25 consistently, it means you are going to have some years there, maybe a few great years every now and then, but in general it means you have an average to slightly above average team. With ~60-ish BCS teams, you'll be somewhere in that 20-40 range on average, with years where you overachieve and years where you underachieve. We got that headfake in 2002-2004 and thought we had cracked the elite, but we quickly trended back to the mean where we belong. And of course, there are non-BCS teams exerting a lot of pressure as well, so maybe the range goes from 20 or 25 to 45 or 50 now.

 

[BryceC]

I sat behind several sets of parents at the Michigan State game (parents of several prominent players). We discussed the coaching staff and how those parents perceived the coaches. Here is what they said:

1. The coaches are excellent people who care about the players. They stress the right values and they are fair.
2. Their kids are happy they play for Iowa. They are learning values that carry over into life after football.
3. The coaches care about academics and are doing everything they can to help their kids get degrees.
4. The team believes in these coaches and believes that they can win. There is a winning attitude on this team.
5. The coaches teach the kids to give back; to give back to their teammates; their community; and to their parents. There is character and integrity on this team.

Do you feel like this is unique to the Iowa coaching staff?

I agree with tm3308 - the whole thing boils down to if you think Ferentz can turn it around or not. I think a fair argument can be made both ways, some feel he has peaked and we're on the downslide, some feel this is just a lull and once the recruiting bounces back success will return.

I am concerned about the coordinators - I questioned the Greg Davis hire from day one, and as we're seeing here it's tough to replace somebody who is as good as Norm Parker. I think it could be argued that the Fry era started to fade once all the assistants had been cannibalized by other programs.

 

[PJHawk]

yeah because the threads that don't include "folks" in the title don't include some condescending lecture instructing the rest of us how we should think about the current state of the program. but you don't complain about those...just the ones that don't agree with your viewpoint

And how do you know I don't complain about them? You're confused but that's okay - feel free to hate or not hate any thread you'd like (just as I do). I'm just offering this board a little internets tip that if you see a "Folks" titled thread go ahead and jump to the conclusion that said thread sucks.

 

[vgshwk]

This thread doesn't change the season or make it any better it still s---- and I have my doubts about when we will be better.

 

[WindyCityHawkI]

If I have to read or hear one more time about what the team was like 40 years ago.....it's totally irrelevant, especially in this day in age with the massive TV contracts for the Big 10 and the ability to use that money on facilities and other things, what the team was like in 1973 means nothing.

 

[eveningnewsteam]

Wow. You sound like a Nebraska fan. I guess it all boils down to your definition of a good year. Here is my definition:

2002 11-2 Big Ten co-champs
2003 10-3 Outback Bowl champs
2004 10-2 Big Ten co-champs
2008 9-4; defeated then #2 Penn State; Outback Bowl champs.
2009 11-2; defeated #5 Penn State; Big Ten runnerup; Orange Bowl champs
2010 8-5; beat then #6 MSU; defeated then ranked Michigan on the road; defeated a ranked Penn State at home; defeated #12 Missouri

My expectations are lower than yours, to be sure. I sat through 20 consecutive losing seasons of Iowa football. We were the worst college football program in the country. A bowl game, any bowl game, is my definition of a good season. I'm as frustrated as anyone about this season, but this staff has recruited well the past 2 years and I believe the future is bright.

Also, for what it is worth, Iowa still has a lot to play for this year. I wouldn't give up on this season just yet.....

Dont even try to spin 2010 as a positve. That was as big of a cluster **** year there has been under Ferentz. 2008? F that too. NFL players all over the field and Iowa still managed to lose 4 games.

 

[JonDMiller]

While on the one hand I agree that history tells us things can get really bad, and it's NEVER going to be easy to recruit to Iowa in comparison to several teams in the league, the program is in a position now unlike it was in the 60's and 70's. It has Top 20 facilities, it's one of the Top 20 revenue generators in college football...it pays its head coach extremely well.

 

[kicker22]

I'll be honest. Alot of us younger fans weren't around in 1973, so we don't know how bad it was. We also weren't alive for the great depression and I'm pretty sure no body wants to live through that again. The fact is, regardless of where the program has been, it is what it is now. Whether or not we've been spoiled by success, why shouldn't we want that same success we've had recently year in and year out. Am I spoiled, maybe, but we've all seen this team play better than they are right now. Whats wrong with wanting any type of change in general.

 

[1977Hawkeye]

If I have to read or hear one more time about what the team was like 40 years ago.....it's totally irrelevant, especially in this day in age with the massive TV contracts for the Big 10 and the ability to use that money on facilities and other things, what the team was like in 1973 means nothing.

Amen to that. Some of these "I was there in 1973" people don't seem to realize that dark period is now roughly 40 to 50 years in the rear view mirror. That's going on a half-century. Think about that for a minute. Iowa has been pretty competetive for the past 3 decades and counting. Yeah, not EVERY year has been good, but in that time frame, we've achieved a #1 ranking, multiple conference championships and BCS appearances. I think it's safe to say that Iowa is a PROGRAM now, thanks to Hayden and Kirk. While it's not good to live in the past and pine for the good ole days (not just football, but life in general), I think the same can be said about hanging on to a horrible past.

Can things return to that lowly level that we saw back in the 60's and 70's? If the AD makes a bad hire or two, of COURSE it can! But it's possible that the program can also return to the point of where we were in 1985, 1990-91, 2002-04, 2009, etc. That knife cuts both ways.

I'm not saying we'll ever be the Florida Gators - I'm not naive to the challanges teams from low-population states face, but don't sell the program short, because Iowa football is, and has been, better than that for a long time now. Remember - WE'RE IOWA!

 

[redhawk55]

MSU who Iowa beat 3 weeks ago is 5-4 does that mean they have to fire everybody or their team is going down the drain? Auburn is 1-7 this year maybe they need to fire everybody because its obvious that teams coach can't coach anymore, OMG TCU is 5-3 quick fire the coaching staff they have lost their desire to win fire everybody, this is the reality of CFB teams, win and they lose . its a cycle everyboby goes thru it. Iowa is going thru it. Nebraska fans are upset about being 6-2 just as Texas fans are upset about a 6-2 record. its time for people to relax
with age comes patience and we don't go around like chicken littles

 

[tm3308]

MSU who Iowa beat 3 weeks ago is 5-4 does that mean they have to fire everybody or their team is going down the drain? Auburn is 1-7 this year maybe they need to fire everybody because its obvious that teams coach can't coach anymore, OMG TCU is 5-3 quick fire the coaching staff they have lost their desire to win fire everybody, this is the reality of CFB teams, win and they lose . its a cycle everyboby goes thru it. Iowa is going thru it. Nebraska fans are upset about being 6-2 just as Texas fans are upset about a 6-2 record. its time for people to relax
with age comes patience and we don't go around like chicken littles

MSU won the division last year. And they've been good for the last 2 years. This year has been disappointing for them, no doubt. But they aren't coming off the heels of two very disappointing or average seasons.

Auburn is in bad shape, and yes, Chizik should be fired. Everybody knew two years ago he wasn't a very good coach. He just happened to have Cam Newton fall into his lap (officially, anyway).

TCU was looking damn good until their starting quarterback was suspended and subsequently quit. They've also won 7 bowl games (including a Rose Bowl), finished ranked 9 times (including 4 top-10 finishes), and have finished a season with fewer than 10 wins just three times under Gary Patterson (this is his 13th year). Now, you can chalk that up to the competition TCU has faced over the years, but either way, this was a ****-poor example to support your argument.

Nebraska and Texas fans (along with the other current and former elites) hold their coaches to higher standards. They're used to competing for national championships.

Iowa, on the other hand is not coming off the heels of a couple good years. They didn't win a title simply because Cam Newton came to town. And they haven't been consistently good for over a decade.

The program has been on a downward trend for going on eight years. This isn't just a wild overreaction to one bad season. It's the culmination of a near decade of mediocrity (with a bone thrown to the fanbase in 2009). I don't advocate firing Ferentz, but I can certainly see where people who do are coming from (and it ain't the nearest mental institution).

 

[redhawk55]

a decade, give me a break 20O2 thats 10 years ago 8-0 in conference

 

[tm3308]

a decade, give me a break 20O2 thats 10 years ago 8-0 in conference

Reading comprehension fail, and in more ways than one.

Iowa has not been CONSISTENTLY good over the last 10 years, unlike TCU. Four (Five, if you include 2008) good years over a 10-year span is not consistency. That's the definition of hit and miss.

In addition, I said Iowa has been largely mediocre for NEARLY a decade. Eight years is nearly a decade, and doesn't include 2002-04. Six seasons out of those eight have either been HUGE disappointments (2010) or just downright average, at best.

 

[redhawk55]

let me explain this S..L..O..W..L..Y
2002 top 10 finish losing to USC IN THE OB RECORD 11-2
2003 TOP10 FINISH beating Florida record 10-3
2004 top 10 finish beating LSU record 10-2
2005 7-5 losing to ISU, OSU, Michigan, NW and Florida in the bowl game
2006 6-7 losing to OSU, Michigan and a 5 game losing streak to NW, Minnesota who broke a 6 game losing streak to Iowa, Oh wait that is impossible Iowa is to never lose to this team, Wisconsin and Texas in the Bowl game
2007 6-6 with losses to ISU, Wisconsin, Indiana, PSU, Purdue and the biggest heart breaker Western Michigan no bowl
2008 9-4 losses to Pitt, MSU, NW, Illinois this is the year Stanzi and JC battled it out for the starting QB job. bowl win over South Carolina State
2009 11-2 bowl win over ACC Champion GT, with losses to NW and OSU
2010 8-5 BOWL WIN over Missouri, with losses to Arizona, Wisconsin,NW, OSU and Minnesota
2011 7-5 bowl loss to Oklahoma and losses to ISU, PSU, MSU, Nebraska and Minnesota
2012 to date losses to ISU, CMU, PSU and NW
and it looks to me like Iowa has lost to some pretty good teams except CMU and WM
and only a hater won't give credit to ISU AND nw gredit for being good.
that's your last decade of MEDIOCRITY
YOU NEED TO SERIOUSLY OVERHAUL YOUR VIEW OF WHAT HAPPENED

 

[tm3308]

let me explain this S..L..O..W..L..Y
2002 top 10 finish losing to USC IN THE OB RECORD 11-2
2003 TOP10 FINISH beating Florida record 10-3
2004 top 10 finish beating LSU record 120-2
2005 7-5 losing to ISU, OSU, Michigan, NW and Florida in the bowl game
2006 6-7 losing to OSU, Michigan and a 5 game losing streak to NW, Minnesota who broke a 6 game losing streak to Iowa, Oh wait that is impossible Iowa is to never lose to this team, Wisconsin and Texas in the Bowl game
2007 6-6 with losses to ISU, Wisconsin, Indiana, PSU, Purdue and the biggest heart breaker Western Michigan no bowl
2008 9-4 losses to Pitt, MSU, NW, Illinois this is the year Stanzi and JC battled it out for the starting QB job. bowl win over South Carolina State
2009 11-2 bowl win over ACC Champion GT, with losses to NW and OSU
2010 8-5 BOWL WIN over Missouri, with losses to Arizona, Wisconsin,NW, OSU and Minnesota
2011 7-5 bowl loss to Oklahoma and losses to ISU, PSU, MSU, Nebraska and Minnesota
2012 to date losses to ISU, CMU, PSU and NW
and it looks to me like Iowa has lost to some pretty good teams except CMU and WM
and only a hater won't give credit to ISU AND nw gredit for being good.
that's your last decade of MEDIOCRITY

Let me explain THIS slooooowly. 2002-2004 are fading in the rearview mirror. Since then, Iowa has had two seasons that would qualify as good. The rest were either big disappointments or just plain average, at best. What's a better indicator of the state of the program? What happened 8 years ago, or what's happened pretty consistently in the 8 years since?

Sure, Iowa has lost to good teams over the last 8 years. That really isn't all that relevant. ISU had one of the toughest schedules in the nation last year, and didn't make a bowl game. How long do you think Rhoads would last if they repeated last season over and over and came back with "well, those are good teams we're losing to"? They've had just as tough a slate this year, and they're on the cusp of bowl eligibility with at least two winnable games left to play.

Since 2004, Iowa has had four seasons in which they finished within 1 game of a .500 record. That's not exactly employee of the month material. That's not consistent success. And by success, I don't mean 10 wins or better. I mean 8 wins or better. Iowa is 58-35 since the Cap One Bowl, and 30-26 in the Big Ten.

Compare that to Wisconsin, a program that's widely considered to be on our level.

Since 2004, Wisconsin's record is 76-25, and 38-18 in conference. The Badgers have experienced consistent success, with just one average season (7-6 in 2008) and one disappointing one (9-4 in 2007 after starting 5-0) in the last 8 years. Iowa is almost the exact opposite.