Trump supporters, how do you square this?

[PCHawk]

In principle, I think most would agree that in the day and age of social media, gross misinformation is a real concern, primarily because people who can't or don't make an effort to critically evaluate what they are reading often make dangerous decisions based upon what they see.

The problem is, how is "misinformation" defined, and who defines it?

From a political perspective, 1st amendment rights were repeatedly violated over the past few years under the guise of suppressing what was deemed misinformation. Posts about the true efficacy of Covid-19 vaccines, the validity of Hunter Biden's laptop, Joe Biden's mental acuity (accusations that the media was altering videos), Hillary Clinton's wiping of mass emails and involvement in the Russian collusion hoax, etc., etc.) were all suppressed at some point. Some would argue that several of those accusations were later retracted and the information allowed, but that's the whole point, the suppression of TRUE misinformation would never require later retraction.

And, where does it stop?

Giving the State authority to determine what is a lie and what is not and the power to suppress it is a huge slippery slope. Obviously, the right to free speech is not absolute - hate speech, yelling "fire!" in a crowded venue, verbal threats, etc., are crimes for obvious reasons, but adding subjective interpretation of posted information with the possibility of censorship and/or punishment ultimately could be more egregious than the consequences of the potential spread of what was deemed misinformation in the first place.

This is exactly right. There are two ways to combat misinformation. One is to suppress it and the other is to give more information. If you suppress it, what you just said comes into play. Whoever is in charge gets to decide what's true and what's not. That's all fine and dandy when your "team" is in charge. But would the people who love suppressing information now still be ok with it when Trump and his team get to decide what info to suppress?

The only way that works is to add information to what you deem misinformation. That's how X works. Both with community notes and in comments. Probably 5 times a day I see something on X and think "is that really true?". So I click the comments and by the time I read five of them I almost always have more info that either makes me completely diiss what I previously read, or makes me question which side is actually true. In those instances I simply decide to not give any credit to either side and pretty much wipe it all out of my brain.

People like to belittle X because Musk supports Trump now. But it's by far the best way to get all the info. At least for me. I get how some people think too much info just makes things confusing. But at least I see everything so I don't end up like Fry and speak on a subject I have no info on other than a gut feeling. Over the course of all the political topics on this board I haven't seen a single new bit of info I haven't already seen and considered. You can really only say that if you scroll X.

 

[PCHawk]

So now Trump wants to make insurance companies pay for IVF. That's a far cry from making it illegal.

 

[MelroseHawkins]

There is misinformation to weed thru with all the info from social media out there now and from podcasters, definitely. But, this is in contrast with all the hypocrisy & propaganda that is forced down people's throats from the "National" media who are supposed to be professional journalists and objective, which at this point they are not.

 

[MelroseHawkins]

Replying to thedukeofearl

Republicans get pretty much Fox & X along with some independent podcasters.

Democrats get CNN, MSNBC, ABC, CBS, NBC, 60 minutes, SNL, late night talk shows, The View, Netflix, university and private colleges help in pushing their agenda, etc. etc. etc..

Some someone complaining that the Republicans get a couple of stations or platforms is hilarious.

Forgot to mention Facebook

 

[MelroseHawkins]

"Trump likewise champions freedom of speech for himself and his allies while attacking it when it protects his critics and political opponents. If Trump had his way, flag burners would be jailed, purveyors of "fake news" would lose their broadcast licenses, and news outlets would have to pay him damages when their coverage strikes him as unfair."

Is this the same free speech you talk of?

Dude, all you did was buy into the scare tactics which the dems are know for. You're gunna be just fine. Trump isn't going to jail purveyors and use martial law. Everybody is going to be fine. He was already pres once and it turned out just fine.

Hell, I'm still waiting for that acid rain from 1978 that we were promised.

 

[MelroseHawkins]

To be fair there's nothing wrong with agreeing that something needs to be done about the spreading of disinformation. In general, and I'm not simply applying it to campaigning, but there is a major problem with people making shit up and pushing it all over social media platforms so people can run with it thinking its real. It does happen and is a problem. I'm not a twitter guy, and couldn't care less whether it folded or not, but there's a fine line between wanting to stop the spread of BS and trying to take away one's first amendment rights.

Were at an a point in time where people have stopped researching things for themselves and there absolutely is a problem with pushing false claims and made up stuff out to the masses intentionally who will take off and run with it. I don't and have never had a X or twitter account and don't use facebook or other types of social media so as I said I'm not applying this necessarily to political stuff, but I have absolutely zero problems with what isn't true (and can be confirmed as such) being filtered out. There's a fine line between expressing an opinion and falsifying facts and it does need to stop.

I think more of the issue is people need to learn how to weed thru all the information or misinformation out there and educate and think for themselves, WITHOUT having to have the media or government tell them how they should think or lead them to the trough of water.

That is a real problem in this country now.

 

[Hay Man]

Dude, all you did was buy into the scare tactics which the dems are know for. You're gunna be just fine. Trump isn't going to jail purveyors and use martial law. Everybody is going to be fine. He was already pres once and it turned out just fine.

Hell, I'm still waiting for that acid rain from 1988 that we were promised.

Scare tactics? What about the Dems are coming for your guns, babies are being murdered after they're born, illegals are coming for your jobs, the Dems want to remove all religions, they want to turn the country into communism.....

See how that works for both sides

 

[MelroseHawkins]

Scare tactics? What about the Dems are coming for your guns, babies are being murdered after they're born, illegals are coming for your jobs, the Dems want to remove all religions, they want to turn the country into communism.....

See how that works for both sides

Nobody is going to come after guns. None of that can be put back in the bottle now. Never believed it. I don't ever buy into that chit or use it to evaluate my voting decision. Never have. I don't think the abortion topic should even be political. I think it's morally wrong but should have some kind of legality to it to a point. I base 100% on the decisions of who is in office that affects our economy, resources, deficit and keeping us safe, AS A WHOLE OF A NATION, not just individual small populations/groups or minorities which I am a part of to be open.

 

[MelroseHawkins]

Nobody is going to come after guns. None of that can be put back in the bottle now. Never believed it. I don't ever buy into that chit or use it to evaluate my voting decision. Never have. I don't think the abortion topic should even be political. I think it's morally wrong but should have some kind of legality to it to a point. I base 100% on the decisions of who is in office that affects our economy, resources, deficit and keeping us safe, AS A WHOLE OF A NATION, not just individual small populations/groups or minorities which I am a part of to be open.

To add. I don't think the dem party wants to turn us into N Korea, but who ran this election and those at the top I have no doubt want to turn us into California, which is NOT GOOD!

 

[thedukeofearl]

Replying to thedukeofearl

Republicans get pretty much Fox & X along with some independent podcasters.

Democrats get CNN, MSNBC, ABC, CBS, NBC, 60 minutes, SNL, late night talk shows, The View, Netflix, university and private colleges help in pushing their agenda, etc. etc. etc..

Some someone complaining that the Republicans get a couple of stations or platforms is hilarious.

Forgot to mention Facebook

Certainly Not complaining

Merely mentioning Fact

Rather tired of it all

 

[MelroseHawkins]

Certainly Not complaining

Merely mentioning Fact

Rather tired of it all

I hear ya.

 

[HuckFinn]

Scare tactics? What about the Dems are coming for your guns, babies are being murdered after they're born, illegals are coming for your jobs, the Dems want to remove all religions, they want to turn the country into communism.....

See how that works for both sides

Well said.

 

[kicker22]

I think more of the issue is people need to learn how to weed thru all the information or misinformation out there and educate and think for themselves, WITHOUT having to have the media or government tell them how they should think or lead them to the trough of water.

That is a real problem in this country now.

True, but to move it away from politics, I'm seeing more and more BS posts regarding the fake passing of a celebrity or athlete. While I agree that it should be up to the those viewing to sort out fact from fiction, false reports like this are messing with people's lives as well as individuals that may know them and IMO absolutely should not be tolerated and those putting that out there should be banned by the sites they're doing it on. Misinformation is one thing, but to flat out start rumors or falsify someone's death shouldn't be tolerated or accepted.

 

[Fryowa]

The problem isn’t misinformation. The problem is our populace getting dumber at an exponential rate and not being able to use critical thinking.

Thinking twitter going out of business will lead to dystopia is a result of that degradation in intelligence.

We are talking about a whole lot of symptoms here, and forgetting that stupidity is the cause. How some people can tie their shoes in the morning and remember to breathe is absolutely baffling to me.

 

[CP87]

The problem isn’t misinformation. The problem is our populace getting dumber at an exponential rate and not being able to use critical thinking.

Thinking twitter going out of business will lead to dystopia is a result of that degradation in intelligence.

We are talking about a whole lot of symptoms here, and forgetting that stupidity is the cause. How some people can tie their shoes in the morning and remember to breathe is absolutely baffling to me.

Agreed, but beyond that, the devaluation of expertise is a problem. It is a double-edged sword...over-reliance on expertise leads to degradation of intellect, but let's be honest, the world is fricking complicated these days. No one can be an expert on novel viruses that lead to pandemics, emergent AI technology, global geopolitical conflicts, your child's education, your coronary artery disease, and how to fix your 2024 Toyota Sequoia all at once. We have built a world so complicated that we depend on experts, whether we like it or not. And while we all acknowledge that we don't know how to fix our computer-integrated modern vehicle, all of a sudden a good chunk of the population assumes they are experts on topics they are even less informed about than how their car works.

Our expert-led institutions have not exacty done us a solid, as there are plenty of mistakes, corruption, and bias that can be highlighted. But we want to throw the baby out with the bathwater instead of trying to improve the flawed systems.

I got no solutions, I am just ranting.

 

[Fryowa]

Agreed, but beyond that, the devaluation of expertise is a problem. It is a double-edged sword...over-reliance on expertise leads to degradation of intellect, but let's be honest, the world is fricking complicated these days. No one can be an expert on novel viruses that lead to pandemics, emergent AI technology, global geopolitical conflicts, your child's education, your coronary artery disease, and how to fix your 2024 Toyota Sequoia all at once. We have built a world so complicated that we depend on experts, whether we like it or not. And while we all acknowledge that we don't know how to fix our computer-integrated modern vehicle, all of a sudden a good chunk of the population assumes they are experts on topics they are even less informed about than how their car works.

Our expert-led institutions have not exacty done us a solid, as there are plenty of mistakes, corruption, and bias that can be highlighted. But we want to throw the baby out with the bathwater instead of trying to improve the flawed systems.

I got no solutions, I am just ranting.

Again I don't think it's any more complex than just people getting dumber and lazier.

People get lazy and dumb, and instead of going through the work of reading many different sources, learning about topics for themselves, and using the critical thinking framework we were all given in high school, they see twitter and facebook and fox and cnn and Rachel Maddow and Alex Jones, latch on to which ever flavor makes them feel warm and fuzzy, and roll with it. They don't need to do any critical thinking for themselves at that point and then you end up with folks like @PCHawk who feel that if you take the pacifier ("news" source) away, they're being robbed of their truth. But they're too lazy to read and find their own educated truth.

If you value intelligence, the valuation of expertise will follow naturally.

To be honest with you, I'm of the opinion that it'd be good if sites like twitter went away (on their own, I'm a capitalist). twitter is a full mix of right and left wack jobs and it does more harm than good.

 

[CP87]

If you value intelligence, the valuation of expertise will follow naturally.

That is a great point.

Are you familiar with the island of knowledge surrounded by a sea of ignorance analogy? The shoreline represents your awareness of your own ignorance.

The sea of topics you are ignorant of is essentially infinite, it represents the total knowledge in the universe, of which any person can only master a teeny tiny fraction. If your knowledge (the island) is tiny, so is the shoreline, and hence your awareness of what you do not understand. This idea fits in with the Dunning Kruger effect, as well as the general idea that conspiracies are dreamt up by people who do not understand how the world actually works.

The more you learn, the larger your island of knowledge becomes, but also the greater your awareness of your own ignorance. Ultimately, this will lead to the appreciation that you cannot possibly know all things at an expert level, and hence you will need to lean on those whose expertise you lack.

I love to share this analogy with students because the amount of stuff they DON'T KNOW is beginning to dawn on them at that age. This is overwhelming, and it can easily lead to anti-intellectualism (relying on feeling, not thought, as you have described). But if they understand that this is the general way things work, i.e. the more you learn the more you are aware of your ignorance, they can venture forth into the world of learning with peace of mind.

I also heard it described decades ago as, "The importance of stupidity in [learning]." I actually read this in the context of scientific research, but it applies to any intellectual exploration. If the feeling of stupidity scares you away from further exploration, then you are never going to get very far. As soon as things get complex, you are out. But if you are willing to sit with that feeling of stupidity, and try to reason your way to a solution, you will reach a higher level of understanding. It is why I like math, it provides one of the most visceral confrontations between humans and their own stupidity. All that, "When will I ever use this down the road?" noise is beside the point...you are learning how to come to terms with your own stupidity and come out the other side to tell the tale. That matters.

 

[PCHawk]

The problem isn’t misinformation. The problem is our populace getting dumber at an exponential rate and not being able to use critical thinking.

Thinking twitter going out of business will lead to dystopia is a result of that degradation in intelligence.

We are talking about a whole lot of symptoms here, and forgetting that stupidity is the cause. How some people can tie their shoes in the morning and remember to breathe is absolutely baffling to me.

It's not that people aren't using critical thinking. It's that information is dispersed on both sides to set people up to connect dots that may or may not be there. The dots I've connected over the last 4-8 years couldn't paint a more clear picture of what's going on. Problem is, people on the other side can say the exact same thing about the dots they've connected. Hell, people can look at the exact same dots and draw two polar opposite conclusions, based on the importance level they put on each individual dot.

Take Jan 6th for example. People can see the things Trump said in the days leading up to it and be so convinced he single handedly caused an insurrection that they look at every single dot after that with a bias. And if you hear some of the things he said (especially if you take some out of context) they would have a legit argument that's true. But then someone like me hears the exact same words and completely dismisses them because his words had absolutely no affect on my thoughts on the election, so it's hard to fathom they swayed other people that much. Because of that, i can look at other dots without that bias.

Then you get into Ray Epps. Someone like me sees how he was treated completely different for doing way worse than most people who got in trouble and can't ignore it because I already have a bias that government is corrupt. Whereas someone without that bias can probably more easily dismiss that dot as just one random guy who got away with it.

Point is, it's entirely possible for two people to use completely reasonable critical thinking and come to two completely different conclusions. And a lot if times the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle. Except this example of course, where I'm completely right and certain people provoked a peaceful protest into a riot to simultaneously get rid of Trump and silence his message.

 

[PCHawk]

Again I don't think it's any more complex than just people getting dumber and lazier.

People get lazy and dumb, and instead of going through the work of reading many different sources, learning about topics for themselves, and using the critical thinking framework we were all given in high school, they see twitter and facebook and fox and cnn and Rachel Maddow and Alex Jones, latch on to which ever flavor makes them feel warm and fuzzy, and roll with it. They don't need to do any critical thinking for themselves at that point and then you end up with folks like @PCHawk who feel that if you take the pacifier ("news" source) away, they're being robbed of their truth. But they're too lazy to read and find their own educated truth.

If you value intelligence, the valuation of expertise will follow naturally.

To be honest with you, I'm of the opinion that it'd be good if sites like twitter went away (on their own, I'm a capitalist). twitter is a full mix of right and left wack jobs and it does more harm than good.

Hey if I'm wrong it's not from lack of critical thinking or laziness. Look at my posts on covid in 2020. I spent a lot of time arguing with people who thought it was all a scam. You don't completely change your mind by looking for things that confirm what you already think. I've probably seen more on both sides of the covid debate than anyone on here. It's borderline stupid how much I cared about that topic. Probably because I'm a small business owner so it affected me more than most. Call me stupid for my options (honestly it would make me feel smarter if someone like you called me stupid). But don't call me lazy for not even looking for info.

 

[PCHawk]

Fry in one breath you say how you don't pay attention to politics because it's a waste of time and in the next breath you call someone lazy for something you clearly know nothing about. That's like me calling someone lazy after they give their in depth option on the best way to sew. Like I'd have a clue what they were even talking about because I admittedly don't pay attention to sewing.