There goes Fleming

deanvogs said:
This is what I was basing my opinion on as well. Take off about 5% from your high school 3 pt shooting and there you go, for at least the first couple years. Maybe by his Jr or Sr. year he could have gotten it closer to 36-37%, but that isn't really elite. Plus his shot just doesn't look repeatable like a Jok or even Ellingson's does.

This is the one reason I'm kind of optimistic about Bohannon. He shot like 43-44% from 3 in HS, so he should come in and shot about 38% right away here. I would guess he will push that up and shoot over 40% his Jr./Sr. years.
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I'm with you Dean. I like Ellingson's shot and think they will start falling as he gets more confident/comfortable. I also think he has a high basketball IQ, better fundamentals and is quicker. And I agree with your Bohannon comments.

I was constantly arguing that Clemmons was worth his scholarship, had upside, was strong, could defend, etc. as others attacked him throughout his career. He turned out to be pretty important this year and became a solid Big 10 player. I'm prepared to defend Ellingson as well...at least through the next season plus.
 
WindsorHawk said:
I'm with you Dean. I like Ellingson's shot and think they will start falling as he gets more confident/comfortable. I also think he has a high basketball IQ, better fundamentals and is quicker. And I agree with your Bohannon comments.

I was constantly arguing that Clemmons was worth his scholarship, had upside, was strong, could defend, etc. as others attacked him throughout his career. He turned out to be pretty important this year and became a solid Big 10 player. I'm prepared to defend Ellingson as well...at least through the next season plus.
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I think Ellingson still has potential as floor-spacer, who doesn't make mistakes. There is value in that. Ellingson isn't a plus athlete, but his shooting percentage should increase as he gets more accustomed to the speed of the game.

Fleming's problem was that he was a jack of all trades (average or below average at those) and master of none. Fleming could kind of handle the ball, kind of shoot the ball, and was kind of athletic. But he didn't project to be particularly good at any of those things. Plus, when he did play, he showed glimpses of being a mistake-prone, reckless player.
 
Rather have bench warmers leave then projected starters.. Say Wagner and Uhl were the two wanting to leave... Then we'd have something to biotch about. So far the only issue I'd have with Frans personel moves is how he went so heavy with so many similar sized/style of players. Moss, Fleming, Ellingson, Hutton, Williams all so close together it was just a matter of who not if anyone was going to leave. All those guys are 6'4 to 6'6 wings around 200 lbs. If one of those spots would have been for a true pg (swung and missed on Ulis) or a center we'd be in pretty good shape. But as it sits this is where we are and it could be a heck of a lot worse. After the Licklighter fiasco rebuilding after this SR class won't be so bad.
 
BGOLD said:
Marble was also a TRUE freshman, 6'6, long, decently athletic, could handle the point, and the son of one of an NBA player. Ellingson is none of those.
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Lol this time I was talking about Fleming. Try to keep up people.
 
WindsorHawk said:
Fleming shot 25% from 3 this year and Ellingson shot 27.3%. Ellingson had more attempts obviously.

Fleming shot 38% from 3 at Oak Hill. I watched 2 or 3 of his televised games at Oak Hill. I was not overwhelmed with his shooting. The games I saw he was wide open when shooting...and shot 38% for the season. So it's hard for me to envision him shooting anywhere near this percentage in the Big 10 against Big 10 caliber defenses.

I'm not saying he would not have developed into a decent player someday. I'm saying he had work to do...not sure how coaching was going to make him quicker.
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I wonder what Fleming shot before Oak Hill. Or in the PTL. I'm just wondering if there is examples of him having a higher percentage. Watching him in the non conference he looked like he could get a shot up whenever he wanted. Not many players on our roster had that ability.
 
PCHawk said:
I wonder what Fleming shot before Oak Hill. Or in the PTL. I'm just wondering if there is examples of him having a higher percentage. Watching him in the non conference he looked like he could get a shot up whenever he wanted. Not many players on our roster had that ability.
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I honestly think any player on the roster can get up a shot whenever they want...if it doesn't have to go in.
 
I can't believe people are complaining about Fran's recruiting AND coaching in the same thread lol. I'm content with Fran. He's taken us to 2.5 straight NCAA tournaments and the NIT championship game before that. We've seen some talented players come through the program. Before Marble who was the last Iowa player to get drafted? Haluska? I was disappointed to see Hutton leave as I was always impressed with his defense and athleticism. I'm okay with Fleming leaving since there likely wasn't going to be playing time for him. As far as Ellingson I'm cool with him playing as long as he's the 4th or 5th guy off the bench. If he's one of the first people off the bench that is not a good thing. People need to remember that we are going to be very young and inexperienced next season so please have patience. There is a lot of potential here but the likelihood of them all gelling right away is small. I'm looking forward to next season.
 
It's really one of those no win situations. You can say a player never was that good or that he never developed. Probably true statements in most cases. However you have to be honest and then ask who was responsible for recruiting such under skilled athletes to a major college sports conference like the B1G?

More and more White is beginning to look like an anomaly rather than a pattern of identifying overlooked and under recruited talent.

Before anyone bites my head off you guys that have been on here for several years know I have been fully supporting the Coach. I guess with two melt downs in three years I am beginning to reevaluate a little.

Also remember that I stated towards the end of the season that I would not be surprised if this transfer happened. So I am the least shocked that it did happen.
 
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Stanzi said:
I can't believe people are complaining about Fran's recruiting AND coaching in the same thread lol. I'm content with Fran. He's taken us to 2.5 straight NCAA tournaments and the NIT championship game before that. We've seen some talented players come through the program. Before Marble who was the last Iowa player to get drafted? Haluska? I was disappointed to see Hutton leave as I was always impressed with his defense and athleticism. I'm okay with Fleming leaving since there likely wasn't going to be playing time for him. As far as Ellingson I'm cool with him playing as long as he's the 4th or 5th guy off the bench. If he's one of the first people off the bench that is not a good thing. People need to remember that we are going to be very young and inexperienced next season so please have patience. There is a lot of potential here but the likelihood of them all gelling right away is small. I'm looking forward to next season.
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I am not saying that Fran doesn't deserve credit for bringing this program from the deep abyss. I am thankful for what he has done. I am dissapointed that he has not landed a true play maker go to type of player. We have yet to see that. I guess Marble would come the closest.

Recruiting seems to have edged up but that is soley based on his most recent and future classes. Iowa basketball is like a box of chocolates, you don't know what your going to get. When we landed Fleming that was considered a significant get. So none of us really know how any of these younger players are going to play or develop. In some ways it will be fun to see what happens. I anticipate a down year ahead but this is where Fran will get a chance to put his coaching abilities on display........ or not.
 
BigD said:
It's really one of those no win situations. You can say a player never was that good or that he never developed. Probably true statements in most cases. However you have to be honest and then ask who was responsible for recruiting such under skilled athletes to a major college sports conference like the B1G?

More and more White is beginning to look like an anomaly rather than a pattern of identifying overlooked and under recruited talent.

Before anyone bites my head off you guys that have been on here for several years know I have been fully supporting the Coach. I guess with two melt downs in three years I am beginning to reevaluate a little.

Also remember that I stated towards the end of the season that I would not be surprised if this transfer happened. So I am the least shocked that it did happen.
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This question isn't just for you, it's for anyone who can answer it. What can a coach possibly do wrong to make the team collapse 2 years? Especially when the team finished strong the other 4 years. Isn't it more reasonable to assume that players couldn't handle the pressure of being a top 10 team? What pressure is on the coach to make him choke? How does a coach choke? People say the conference figured us out and Fran couldn't counter. How did the conference not figure us out last year? Do other teams only care to figure us out the years we're top 10? These are serious questions for anyone who can answer.
 
WindsorHawk said:
Sorry PC...I am totally messing with you.
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I knew you were. But I also knew I would get that response from someone. The truth is, it's pretty easy to tell the difference between an under control shot and an out of control shot. It looked like Fleming was really good at creating under control shots, which isn't easy for most guys on the team. It really makes me wonder how he scored so much in the PTL. Was he a high efficient scorer or did he just chuck upa bunch of shots. All the other player's played against the same bad defenses as he did but they didn't put up the numbers he did. I really think he is a natural scorer and his defense could have come along had he had the pacience to stay.
 
PCHawk said:
I knew you were. But I also knew I would get that response from someone. The truth is, it's pretty easy to tell the difference between an under control shot and an out of control shot. It looked like Fleming was really good at creating under control shots, which isn't easy for most guys on the team. It really makes me wonder how he scored so much in the PTL. Was he a high efficient scorer or did he just chuck upa bunch of shots. All the other player's played against the same bad defenses as he did but they didn't put up the numbers he did. I really think he is a natural scorer and his defense could have come along had he had the pacience to stay.
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He scored so much in the PTL due to his three point range. I remember he was hitting shots at Uthoff or Steph Curry range. He was jacking up quite a few shots and some weren't the best shot but he definitely had confidence to hit them. He is a player I was very high on after watching him in PTL but it seems like he could never get it going when it really mattered. He seemed to get lost on defense and a few years ago Fran would of left him out there and had him learn trial by fire but with all of the seniors on this team he just couldn't do that. I wouldn't be surprised to see him end up at Florida or Miami. Or even Tennessee now that Rick Barnes is there. I also think he would be fairly successful in any of these places.
 
Casey388 said:
He scored so much in the PTL due to his three point range. I remember he was hitting shots at Uthoff or Steph Curry range. He was jacking up quite a few shots and some weren't the best shot but he definitely had confidence to hit them. He is a player I was very high on after watching him in PTL but it seems like he could never get it going when it really mattered. He seemed to get lost on defense and a few years ago Fran would of left him out there and had him learn trial by fire but with all of the seniors on this team he just couldn't do that. I wouldn't be surprised to see him end up at Florida or Miami. Or even Tennessee now that Rick Barnes is there. I also think he would be fairly successful in any of these places.
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I will be super surprised if he ends up at a power 5 school. He lacks the agility to play defense and his shooting is over-rated. Just watching him in warm-ups before games moving around and shooting the group I sit with were all wondering if he would make it at this level. Not fluid at all and threw up a ton of bricks. He would be like 1-7 from 3 with no one guarding him with 5 of the misses being absolute bricks. Then you watch Jok canning 10 straight that barely touch the net. Watch Utoff canning shots. Then you realize if you cannot make them in warm-ups how are you going to hit anything in a game with tight defense.

I had high hopes for Fleming but watching him in person you can understand why he got buried on the bench and is transferring. I do wish him the best of luck.

There's another player still on the roster I really wonder about too making it at this level. It just shows how freaking good you have to be to play at a power 5/6 school.
 
deanvogs said:
This is what I was basing my opinion on as well. Take off about 5% from your high school 3 pt shooting and there you go, for at least the first couple years. Maybe by his Jr or Sr. year he could have gotten it closer to 36-37%, but that isn't really elite. Plus his shot just doesn't look repeatable like a Jok or even Ellingson's does.

This is the one reason I'm kind of optimistic about Bohannon. He shot like 43-44% from 3 in HS, so he should come in and shot about 38% right away here. I would guess he will push that up and shoot over 40% his Jr./Sr. years.
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Ellingson could shoot in High School and it didn't translate to the Big 10. The biggest worry for me with Bohannon is his defense though
 
Flemming had some great offers. Florida, miami, unlv... I have trouble believing he doesnt have the physical tools to play for a power 5 team. He just didnt seem to buy into the team philosophy or getting coached up. He looked lost in offense and defense, and i think it was effort to develop than iq. Its going to suck to see him put up big numbers in a couple years If he does mature and actually work on his game.

He was a good cheerleader for hawks but he did not appear "driven" by competition, and that can be poisonious to chemistry of a team. Hopefully these two recruiting misses arent the beginning of a trend. Dont wanna see hawks fall in the gopherhole of the big ten.
 
smhawk said:
Flemming had some great offers. Florida, miami, unlv... I have trouble believing he doesnt have the physical tools to play for a power 5 team. He just didnt seem to buy into the team philosophy or getting coached up. He looked lost in offense and defense, and i think it was effort to develop than iq. Its going to suck to see him put up big numbers in a couple years If he does mature and actually work on his game.

He was a good cheerleader for hawks but he did not appear "driven" by competition, and that can be poisonious to chemistry of a team. Hopefully these two recruiting misses arent the beginning of a trend. Dont wanna see hawks fall in the gopherhole of the big ten.
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You mention his great offers and then call him a recruiting miss. That's contradictory IMO. Some guys don't pan out. But that doesn't make them misses. He left his high school team to play at Oak Hill. Now he's leaving Iowa to play elsewhere. I won't be surprised if he's a graduate transfer and plays at 3 schools in 5 years.
 
I didn't know we have fire safety program going on at Carver"s
th
 
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