There goes Fleming

[HawkGold]

Any player at the D1 level is competitive and wants to play. Coaches play who they want to play for a variety of reasons, some accurate assessments and others the coach's bias, whether accurate or not. We've all seen coaches seemingly give up wins to go with their biases. It's a fact of basketball. I've seen up close and personal coaches be reluctant to play players who have huge positives on the scoring differential, only to see the coach continually not play them until the team is well behind. Reasons? Formation, shot selection, personality differences, stubbornness...who knows.

Certainly can't blame a player for wanting to play. Certainly couldn't have blamed Brad Lohaus if he wanted to go elsewhere. Was he a late bloomer or was it something else?

 

[BGOLD]

How about we stop throwing freshman under the bus, and actually give them some time to develop. Iowa isn't Kentucky, we don't bring in classes that compete for national titles as freshman.

He's not really a freshman though. He's about to enter his 3rd year removed from HS and doesn't even look close to being able to compete. And it's things that can't be coached up, like having the ability to get open or defend. His feet are too slow and and he doesn't have a D1 body and he's been in a college weight room for two years already. Even if he did find a way to get open to get a shot off he shot 15% from 3 in conference. No thanks.

 

[SteveGarvey]

He didn't just not shoot well, he shot 15% from 3 in conference play... His toughest challenge is even getting an open look, should he achieve that, he has a 15% of making the shot. I'd take Hutton, or Fleming, or just about anyone else over that.

Yet Fleming virtually didn't even play during the B1G season so there's nothing to compare BE's shooting % against. If he couldn't even beat out BE then that has to tell you something, no?

 

[SteveGarvey]

BTW, the quote I used ^ was someone else who quoted me, though it looks like I'm contradicting myself.

 

[PCHawk]

He's not really a freshman though. He's about to enter his 3rd year removed from HS and doesn't even look close to being able to compete. And it's things that can't be coached up, like having the ability to get open or defend. His feet are too slow and and he doesn't have a D1 body and he's been in a college weight room for two years already. Even if he did find a way to get open to get a shot off he shot 15% from 3 in conference. No thanks.

I know most people don't watch non televised non conference games, but I've seen every game and he actually did some things that impressed me. He's had a couple drives to the hoop and made tough finishes (tougher than most other iowa players ever make) that I didn't think he had in him. I not saying he's ever going to be starter material, but he could be a pretty good 2nd or 3rd guy off the bench. Right now he looks like a 16 year old white kid. That's what makes you think he's so unathletic.

 

[deanvogs]

I know most people don't watch non televised non conference games, but I've seen every game and he actually did some things that impressed me. He's had a couple drives to the hoop and made tough finishes (tougher than most other iowa players ever make) that I didn't think he had in him. I not saying he's ever going to be starter material, but he could be a pretty good 2nd or 3rd guy off the bench. Right now he looks like a 16 year old white kid. That's what makes you think he's so unathletic.

Fleming is too much of a tweener, and was never going to make a mark here. His foot speed is too slow to keep up with other 2 guards, and he isn't a pure enough shooter to be a 2 guard. He isn't athletic enough to be more of a scoring slasher and finish at the rim. He will be a very good MVC type player though, he will fit in well there.

 

[PCHawk]

Fleming is too much of a tweener, and was never going to make a mark here. His foot speed is too slow to keep up with other 2 guards, and he isn't a pure enough shooter to be a 2 guard. He isn't athletic enough to be more of a scoring slasher and finish at the rim. He will be a very good MVC type player though, he will fit in well there.

I was actually talking about Ellingson. There are more ways to get open then quickness. A lot of players that struggle with quickness have really good court awareness. I disagree on Fleming tho. Not necessarily saying you're wrong, just that the verdict wasn't in on him yet. I think he is probably more athletic than Gatens was.

 

[PCHawk]

Marble looked terrible as a freshman. He had one good game against Michigan. Other than that it wasn't good.

 

[deanvogs]

I was actually talking about Ellingson. There are more ways to get open then quickness. A lot of players that struggle with quickness have really good court awareness. I disagree on Fleming tho. Not necessarily saying you're wrong, just that the verdict wasn't in on him yet. I think he is probably more athletic than Gatens was.

Athletically Gatens and Fleming are very similar. As shooters Fleming doesn't hold a candle to Matt. Matt wouldn't have been a good player if he wasn't a great shooter. He never could get to the rim until his great run at the end of his Sr. season. I remember getting so frustrated with him when he would drive to the basket, it was worse than watching Gesell going to the rim!

 

[WindsorHawk]

Good luck to both kids transferring. I hope they have great careers wherever they land. No hard feelings.

I agree. And I think they might have developed into good players that could contribute. But I don't think either of them was going to turn a loss next season into a win.

 

[BigD]

How about we stop throwing freshman under the bus, and actually give them some time to develop. Iowa isn't Kentucky, we don't bring in classes that compete for national titles as freshman.

sad

 

[PCHawk]

Athletically Gatens and Fleming are very similar. As shooters Fleming doesn't hold a candle to Matt. Matt wouldn't have been a good player if he wasn't a great shooter. He never could get to the rim until his great run at the end of his Sr. season. I remember getting so frustrated with him when he would drive to the basket, it was worse than watching Gesell going to the rim!

I agree about Gatens, and maybe they are close athletically. But why do you think Fleming wasn't a good shooter? From the limited shots this year or have you heard something? He was considered a shooter in high school and he lit up the PTL. Not saying that means he is good, but it's all I know.

 

[BigD]

Fleming stated that he wanted to find a coaching staff that would give him a chance.

Worse than that he said he wanted to play for a coach that could ultilize his skills. SLAM!!!! Coaches that have systems have a tendency to play the system and plug in players. Coaches like Lute Olsen analysis their players strongest abilities and shape an offense that gets the most out of those abilities. We haven't seen that in Iowa City since. Just a lot of systems mentalities. Mr. Davis was ok but again he had that play eleven or twelve player system.

 

[WindsorHawk]

Fleming shot 25% from 3 this year and Ellingson shot 27.3%. Ellingson had more attempts obviously.

Fleming shot 38% from 3 at Oak Hill. I watched 2 or 3 of his televised games at Oak Hill. I was not overwhelmed with his shooting. The games I saw he was wide open when shooting...and shot 38% for the season. So it's hard for me to envision him shooting anywhere near this percentage in the Big 10 against Big 10 caliber defenses.

I'm not saying he would not have developed into a decent player someday. I'm saying he had work to do...not sure how coaching was going to make him quicker.

 

[Tierney]

Do you follow Iowa basketball? Basabe went to the bench. McCabe went to the bench BEFORE he graduated. White, Woodbury, Geselll, Clemmons, Basabe, McCabe and others started as true freshmen. Fran plays the best players. This year's senior class went to an NIT championship game followed by 3 straight NCAA tournaments. They started because they were successful and better than the guys sitting on the bench.

If you say so. I'm not trying to knock anyone, but the coaching staff seems to take experience over potential which isn't a bad thing. It would of been nice if the coaching staff would give these guys some minutes when Iowa is twenty five points ahead in a game. It seems that if they ever did that and the guy was successful, the coaching staff would be getting a lot more negative responses from fans if they didn't play them more. I can understand why someone would want to look after themselves, but I would of enjoyed some of the games a lot more if I could of seen more of Williams and Fleming. I would of enjoyed watching Hutton if he hadn't been redshirting.

 

[InGoodCo]

So if Fran's recruiting AND coaching stinks, how in the world did he pull us out of the Lick crater? If Fran can't recruit or coach how did he get us into 3 straight NCAA tournaments? If Fran can't recruit or coach, how has Iowa had 3 different players be 1st team All B1G team in the last 3 years? If Fran can't recruit or coach, how has Iowa finished 3rd in the B1G two consecutive years?

When you get rid of your #13 & #14th best players on your roster move on (yes, neither is as good as a walk on), that is actually HEALTHY for the program. Recruiting is an inexact science, and when you miss on a kid, the quicker the mistake is taken care of, the better off you are.

This is one of the only things worth reading on this thread

 

[deanvogs]

Fleming shot 25% from 3 this year and Ellingson shot 27.3%. Ellingson had more attempts obviously.

Fleming shot 38% from 3 at Oak Hill. I watched 2 or 3 of his televised games at Oak Hill. I was not overwhelmed with his shooting. The games I saw he was wide open when shooting...and shot 38% for the season. So it's hard for me to envision him shooting anywhere near this percentage in the Big 10 against Big 10 caliber defenses.

I'm not saying he would not have developed into a decent player someday. I'm saying he had work to do...not sure how coaching was going to make him quicker.

This is what I was basing my opinion on as well. Take off about 5% from your high school 3 pt shooting and there you go, for at least the first couple years. Maybe by his Jr or Sr. year he could have gotten it closer to 36-37%, but that isn't really elite. Plus his shot just doesn't look repeatable like a Jok or even Ellingson's does.

This is the one reason I'm kind of optimistic about Bohannon. He shot like 43-44% from 3 in HS, so he should come in and shot about 38% right away here. I would guess he will push that up and shoot over 40% his Jr./Sr. years.

 

[BGOLD]

Marble looked terrible as a freshman. He had one good game against Michigan. Other than that it wasn't good.

Marble was also a TRUE freshman, 6'6, long, decently athletic, could handle the point, and the son of one of an NBA player. Ellingson is none of those.

 

[Knight78]

Concerning. That's all I'll say. 2 players in 2 days and neither has been on campus for 12 months. Either mccaffrey is missing or they don't like playing for him. It's not like Iowa has all Americans waiting in the wings for scholarships to open. I like Fran, but there's an issue here.

Really? Neither has been on campus for 12 months? I guess it was an actor pretending to be Fleming that was on Iowa's bench all season, eh?

 

[Knight78]

Gesell and Woodbury were four year starters, and Clemmons was a three year starter. Who exactly did Gesell, Woodbury, and Clemmons knock out of the lineup. Of course, Uthoff replaced McCabe after he graduated. Anyone that follows Iowa basketball knows that experience is one of the main factors that McCaffery looks at. I really don't believe that if Ulis would of came to Iowa he would of replaced a guy that was looking to start his third straight year in Gesell. Oh, never mind.

The point was that Fran needed to get the freshmen playing time, but he never does give underclassmen a chance. How soon we forget that the current group of graduating seniors were once freshmen and started. Yes, Fran plays underclassmen.... if they are good enough. Since all he has to go on is how they perform in practice, he must have seen something lacking in practice from some underclassmen this year.