The truth about CJ injury and the silver lining

[Northside Hawk]

Davis and Fran are a lot more similar than people want to believe.

Davis without GR's recruits made the NCAA 6/10 years and had 1 Sweet 16
Fran without TL's mess has made the NCAA 4/7 years with 0 Sweet 16s

Both coaches stressed fast pace and appear to not care much for half court D. Fran has to make 2 of the next 3 tournaments and get to a Sweet 16 to match the mark made by Davis.

And next year he'll most likely be without JW and LG and who knows if Jordan will ever recover so he better start recruiting some shooters. Because unless Iowa is hitting 3s, their D isn't good enough to win against good opponents and the B1G is full of them.

Here's them difference in the two programs.

Davis tended to lean heavily on his seniors and would bring them along layer by layer until they were ready to play their best ball their senior year.

Les Jepsen was a classic example of that. For two years he couldn't walk and chew gum at the same time. He started to contribute his junior year, thanks partially to injuries, then was the alpha dog his last year and actually played in the NBA a little bit. Other examples include James Moses, Wade Lookingbill, James Winters, Jim Bartles, Russ Millard, Darryl Moore and Ryan Bowen.

Fran has had some played peak early, then get lost in the shuffle and played over. This seems to be happening to Cordell right now. Dom Uhl was a classic example. Devon Archie and Andrew Brommer from the early teams. Davis would have brought those guys along and made sure they played their best ball their senior years.

 

[duhawk70]

Here's them difference in the two programs.

Davis tended to lean heavily on his seniors and would bring them along layer by layer until they were ready to play their best ball their senior year.

Les Jepsen was a classic example of that. For two years he couldn't walk and chew gum at the same time. He started to contribute his junior year, thanks partially to injuries, then was the alpha dog his last year and actually played in the NBA a little bit. Other examples include James Moses, Wade Lookingbill, James Winters, Jim Bartles, Russ Millard, Darryl Moore and Ryan Bowen.

Fran has had some played peak early, then get lost in the shuffle and played over. This seems to be happening to Cordell right now. Dom Uhl was a classic example. Devon Archie and Andrew Brommer from the early teams. Davis would have brought those guys along and made sure they played their best ball their senior years.

As I remember, I don’t think Devon Archie ever had a peak though he did shoot that wide left free throw that will live in infamy.

 

[PCHawk]

I'm sure there were plenty of players that peaked early under Davis. Just like there have been plenty of players that played their best ball as seniors under Fran.

 

[HaydenHawk56]

Here is a simple experiment. If Fran was a stock and based on everything you know, would you invest, right now, 10,000 dollars on them either winning the Big Ten or getting to the Sweet 16 this year or I will even give you next year.

Or you can invest it in Izzo and Michigan St for the same deal. Which would you choose? Honestly, and, remember, people can leave early and injuries happen.

 

[NikeHawk21]

Here is a simple experiment. If Fran was a stock and based on everything you know, would you invest, right now, 10,000 dollars on them either winning the Big Ten or getting to the Sweet 16 this year or I will even give you next year.

Or you can invest it in Izzo and Michigan St for the same deal. Which would you choose? Honestly, and, remember, people can leave early and injuries happen.

Wow. You seriously thought this up in your head and typed it?

 

[HaydenHawk56]

Wow. You seriously thought this up in your head and typed it?

Sure did. How much faith do you have in Fran to pull off where I think we would all like to go and how realistic is it? And, if the answer is no, then what is the goal of this program?

 

[NikeHawk21]

Sure did. How much faith do you have in Fran to pull off where I think we would all like to go and how realistic is it? And, if the answer is no, then what is the goal of this program?

Comparing Iowa basketball to Michigan State basketball is just dumb and likely weakens the argument you are trying to make.

You don’t think Fran can take Iowa to the next level, and there is nothing wrong with that belief, it’s the way you are going about arguing it that’s wrong.

 

[PCHawk]

I just did that same exercise with Duke, Kansas, and Kentucky too. The results were not good for Fran. He has to go.

 

[racerhawk]

Bottom line, Year 10, no Sweet 16s, no conferences tittles. And, likely no NCAA sniff this year. I don't blame Fran for injuries, but I do think responsibility lies with this staff to put together complete rosters, which, even if the team was healthy, still had question marks because of overall recruiting. JBo is more of a two, that can play the one if he has to. No stud point guard and we have to rely on a young freshman, JT, to carry the load. No proven stud at the 4 position.....even if Tyler would have stuck around....which would have helped no question....he can't shoot. Moss was recruited to play here and at the end of the day he did not want to be a Hawk anymore. It is the coaches who recruit these players and it is their job to inspire them and keep them happy (within reason).

Then, again, if Tyler stuck around, would Garza be having the year is having this year? Or would coach have played Tyler more at the 5 (playing him out of position) and Garza's role would have been a bit diminished. That would have not surprised me a bit.

I would consider 2 out of every 3 years average for making the NCAAs (66% clip). Actually, that would be better than average of the good Dr. In 7 years (throwing this year in as well and making the educated guess they will not make it), in reality, Fran's teams have cleanly made the NCAA tournament (no play-in games, which I consider as purgatory between the NIT and NCAAs) 3 times. Under 500 chance of making the tournament in a given year. Not good. And Mr. Davis had made appearances in the Sweet 16 and Elite 8 at Iowa (also an Elite 8 at another school prior to coming to Iowa).

Almost always seems like we are dangling a carrot on a stick with Fran at the helm. And, his peak, has been what Mr. Davis did most years when he was at Iowa.

Does not inspire a lot of confidence if you are attempting to build a championship team. Championship team, heck, this program is still trying to complete a year where the bowling ball does not spend a significant amount of time in the gutter.

I find myself wondering why, or if, you even watch Iowa Basketball if this is your perspective. The big ten is a brutally tough conference from top to bottom this year, and the amount of injuries would have affected any team. It's disappointing at times, but this year has provided a lot of highlights. I, for one, am proud of this team and Fran's coaching this year. Last night showed how tough this team can be, with a VERY short bench.

We will see how it ends up, but Iowa may make it to the tournament if they win their home games and steal a couple of road games. Given the limited roster, that would be awesome.

Mr. Davis coached decades ago. He is awesome. Whatevs.. It's a different world now.

Iowa is ranked 33 today in the NET. Not horrible considering the adversity.

 

[HaydenHawk56]

I find myself wondering why, or if, you even watch Iowa Basketball if this is your perspective. The big ten is a brutally tough conference from top to bottom this year, and the amount of injuries would have affected any team. It's disappointing at times, but this year has provided a lot of highlights. I, for one, am proud of this team and Fran's coaching this year. Last night showed how tough this team can be, with a VERY short bench.

We will see how it ends up, but Iowa may make it to the tournament if they win their home games and steal a couple of road games. Given the limited roster, that would be awesome.

Mr. Davis coached decades ago. He is awesome. Whatevs.. It's a different world now.

Iowa is ranked 33 today in the NET. Not horrible considering the adversity.

Because we are Hawkeye fans, probably more invested in the program than some (those who spend time on message boards anyway compared to the casual fan). I would like to see the program more than just taking 2-3 years to become an NCAA tournament team that is just fodder for a Top Seed in the first or 2nd round. And, I loved seeing the team beat those Twerps last night.....but it amuses me when I see the talks of "championship and maybe among Iowa's best teams ever" over a a few good wins when we struggle to even get out of the first round of the BTT tournament or first couple of rounds of the NCAAs.

I have seen far better years for the Iowa basketball program and a more consistent program. I hope we can get back there some day. I want this program to have moments like the football program has had over the last 30 years or so.

 

[PCHawk]

Because we are Hawkeye fans, probably more invested in the program than some (those who spend time on message boards anyway compared to the casual fan). I would like to see the program more than just taking 2-3 years to become an NCAA tournament team that is just fodder for a Top Seed in the first or 2nd round. And, I loved seeing the team beat those Twerps last night.....but it amuses me when I see the talks of "championship and maybe among Iowa's best teams ever" over a a few good wins when we struggle to even get out of the first round of the BTT tournament or first couple of rounds of the NCAAs.

I have seen far better years for the Iowa basketball program and a more consistent program. I hope we can get back there some day. I want this program to have moments like the football program has had over the last 30 years or so.

I'm not sure why you are bringing up past teams to judge this team. The last 3 and a half years have proved without a doubt that blowing close games was a player problem. These players don't have that problem. Past players didn't have one of the best centers in the nation and possibly the best trio of 3 point shooters in the nation. We will also have maybe the best closer in the nation. If everyone is back next year, the roster will be constructed perfectly to win big. And that is with getting nothing out of all 5 freshmen. If one of them steps up big, we will be the best team in the conference. The best team doesn't always win, but it has the best chance to win.

 

[HaydenHawk56]

I'm not sure why you are bringing up past teams to judge this team. The last 3 and a half years have proved without a doubt that blowing close games was a player problem. These players don't have that problem. Past players didn't have one of the best centers in the nation and possibly the best trio of 3 point shooters in the nation. We will also have maybe the best closer in the nation. If everyone is back next year, the roster will be constructed perfectly to win big. And that is with getting nothing out of all 5 freshmen. If one of them steps up big, we will be the best team in the conference. The best team doesn't always win, but it has the best chance to win.

I hope you are right. I really do PC. But, I guess I still need to see more. A lot more. And, I still can't get passed who is leading the program. He still has a lot to prove as well.

 

[Xerxes]

Here's them difference in the two programs.

Davis tended to lean heavily on his seniors and would bring them along layer by layer until they were ready to play their best ball their senior year.

Les Jepsen was a classic example of that. For two years he couldn't walk and chew gum at the same time. He started to contribute his junior year, thanks partially to injuries, then was the alpha dog his last year and actually played in the NBA a little bit. Other examples include James Moses, Wade Lookingbill, James Winters, Jim Bartles, Russ Millard, Darryl Moore and Ryan Bowen.

Fran has had some played peak early, then get lost in the shuffle and played over. This seems to be happening to Cordell right now. Dom Uhl was a classic example. Devon Archie and Andrew Brommer from the early teams. Davis would have brought those guys along and made sure they played their best ball their senior years.

If I was making a case for Davis, personally I wouldn't go with the SR's playing their best ball argument.

His 1988-1989 team might be the most disappointing Iowa teams ever in any sport. Led by 3 SRs all of which would be drafted in the top 40 picks of the NBA draft that summer, went 10-8 in the B1G. And Indiana already had the conference title wrapped up going into the season finale and rested their top players against Iowa. Otherwise Iowa would have gone 9-9 that year. And to top if off they lost in the 2nd round of the NCAA tournament.

 

[Xerxes]

Because we are Hawkeye fans, probably more invested in the program than some (those who spend time on message boards anyway compared to the casual fan). I would like to see the program more than just taking 2-3 years to become an NCAA tournament team that is just fodder for a Top Seed in the first or 2nd round. And, I loved seeing the team beat those Twerps last night.....but it amuses me when I see the talks of "championship and maybe among Iowa's best teams ever" over a a few good wins when we struggle to even get out of the first round of the BTT tournament or first couple of rounds of the NCAAs.

I have seen far better years for the Iowa basketball program and a more consistent program. I hope we can get back there some day. I want this program to have moments like the football program has had over the last 30 years or so.

I can respect this take if you look at Davis era as a whole. But as I mentioned in an earlier post, once he had to do things with his own guys, his numbers are very similar to Fran when Fran had his guys in place. Too me the program looks very similar under those two.

 

[Northside Hawk]

If I was making a case for Davis, personally I wouldn't go with the SR's playing their best ball argument.

His 1988-1989 team might be the most disappointing Iowa teams ever in any sport. Led by 3 SRs all of which would be drafted in the top 40 picks of the NBA draft that summer, went 10-8 in the B1G. And Indiana already had the conference title wrapped up going into the season finale and rested their top players against Iowa. Otherwise Iowa would have gone 9-9 that year. And to top if off they lost in the 2nd round of the NCAA tournament.

Agree on 1989. That team on paper was better than 1987. But Matt Bullard missed two months, Michael Ingram almost the whole year, and Rodell Davis almost two years (all knees). Add the Ray Thompson ineligibility saga and you had a classic underachiever.

It's too bad. Illinois and Michigan both made the final four that year and we should have joined the party. It's also a shame that we never got to see a healthy Rodell Davis. Unbelievable leaper, could still do a reverse dunk after all the knee problems with a heavy brace on his knee. If healthy, he could have been a Greg Graham type player.

 

[#1DieHardHawk]

Agree on 1989. That team on paper was better than 1987. But Matt Bullard missed two months, Michael Ingram almost the whole year, and Rodell Davis almost two years (all knees). Add the Ray Thompson ineligibility saga and you had a classic underachiever.

It's too bad. Illinois and Michigan both made the final four that year and we should have joined the party. It's also a shame that we never got to see a healthy Rodell Davis. Unbelievable leaper, could still do a reverse dunk after all the knee problems with a heavy brace on his knee. If healthy, he could have been a Greg Graham type player.

I actually like the '87 team better.

The trio of Marble, Horton and Armstrong were finding their games. Lohaus had developed into a solid front-court player along with Lorenzen and Wright. Gamble was a defensive liability but was deadly offensively, and, if we needed better defense, we had Bill Jones available. Jeff Moe and Kent Hill were very good role players as well.

That melt-down against UNLV to this day still gives me pain in the pit of my stomach.

 

[PCHawk]

I hope you are right. I really do PC. But, I guess I still need to see more. A lot more. And, I still can't get passed who is leading the program. He still has a lot to prove as well.

Well you're more than likely not going to see more this year.

 

[HaydenHawk56]

Well you're more than likely not going to see more this year.

For sure, most likely. But, it will be very impressive if they make the NCAAs with as many injuries as they have. Next year we will see if they more than just an NCAA qualifier.

 

[Northside Hawk]

I actually like the '87 team better.

The trio of Marble, Horton and Armstrong were finding their games. Lohaus had developed into a solid front-court player along with Lorenzen and Wright. Gamble was a defensive liability but was deadly offensively, and, if we needed better defense, we had Bill Jones available. Jeff Moe and Kent Hill were very good role players as well.

That melt-down against UNLV to this day still gives me pain in the pit of my stomach.

Davis deserves a ton of credit for giving Lohaus and Gamble a clean slate. Neither would have had a ten year NBA career without Davis, as they both had slid farther and farther down Raveling's bench.

With both hands on deck both teams were obviously very talented and deep. We never saw the full potential of the 1989 team and don't forget Acie Earl redshirted that hear. The only significant injury the 1987 team endured was Gerry Wright's broken hand, rumored to be from punching a wall when he found out it was too late to drop a class.

The 1989 team, if healthy, would have had better interior defense than 1987. The 1987 team was probably a better team at scoring inside, thanks in large part to Marble and Gamble around the rim.

 

[HaydenHawk56]

Comparing Iowa basketball to Michigan State basketball is just dumb and likely weakens the argument you are trying to make.

You don’t think Fran can take Iowa to the next level, and there is nothing wrong with that belief, it’s the way you are going about arguing it that’s wrong.

Then what is the goal of the program? Right now we are washing lettuce, soon we will be on fries, before you know it....Assistant Manager...... How would you go about it?