The “talent” question

[NikeHawk21]

Flame away, but Wieskamp is way, way overblown. You guys who are paying attention to recruiting rankings are the same ones who pay attention to Mel Kiper. And please don’t bring up watching his film. He’s ringing up ridiculous stats because he’s playing high school juniors and seniors, of which probably 99.9% won’t even play community college ball, and his teammates do nothing but feed him all game long. There have to be 20 assists per game to Wieskamp. Big fish, small pond.

He’s supposedly ranked 50th in the country, but go take a look at the rest of the top 50. Just about all of those kids have 15, 20, 25 offers from top P5 schools. Wieskamp has 6 including Iowa, from ISU, UNI, Creighton, Nebraska, and Wisconsin. Not exactly tip top schools.

Trust me, college scouts and coaches know a hell of a lot more about what to look for in a recruit than a bunch of chumps at Rivals and 24/7. And don’t give me the crap about him not getting offers because he’s so hard core Iowa. That’s a load of manure; there are plenty of kids with 30 some offers who are committed already.

Sorry but this is just wrong on so many levels.

1. Recruiting rankings come for performance in AAU ball, not really high school / stats. He played on a really good AAU team who competed with the best players in the country.

2. The offers thing you are completely wrong on as well. Joe was one of the first in his class to commit. Coaches are not going to waste their time on a kid who is firmly committed elsewhere. The other kids with all those offers committed much later in the process. If Joe would have stayed uncommitted he would have had plenty of offers.

 

[lightning1]

Exactly. I love it when people think they can hop on Rivals.com and have an exact certainty of who has offers where. Those sites try but they have no real way of knowing what was communicated between coaches and players.

Not to mention Joe was one of the first players in his class to commit. He attends Iowa practices and games quite frequently. Coaches are smarter than to waste their time on a guy who is firmly committed like that.

Every single one of them will send the obligatory offer in the mail. I'm sure he has a hundred of them or more. If JW doesn't contact them in return, they don't waste any more time on a committed player like him. If he announced his decision to de-commit tomorrow, his list of offers on those recruiting sites would explode by the end of the week. As if someone waved a magic wand.

 

[HawkGold]

Everyone is entitled to an opinion. I think you’re being a little harsh on certain guys but overall the point remains that after our first few the rest of the players just aren’t talented enough.

Who am I being too harsh on? Garza? He has to develop physically and get strength. That is not a Fran thing.

Baer? Every team has a catalyst that doesn't quite belong but can spark something in a short time. Other of these players are more athletic.

CM? You just don't see many players in the Big shoot like him. At best he's a 2 and shooting isn't his main things. He also loses height by his form.

Don't see anything else as arguable.

 

[Fryowa]

I don't know JW personally but I could probably make a couple of phone calls and get an idea what offer lists he has at home. But it would be a waste of time. I can tell you with 99% certainty that he has over 30 high D-1 offers in his mail pile.

A little bit of bias there...

I'd actually like you to make those phone calls. I'll admit I'm wrong.

Exactly. I love it when people think they can hop on Rivals.com and have an exact certainty of who has offers where. Those sites try but they have no real way of knowing what was communicated between coaches and players.

So what you're telling us is that recruiting sites don't have a way of knowing who is offered what, but you trust them enough to say that a kid is ranked 37th vs 41st?

Not to mention Joe was one of the first players in his class to commit. He attends Iowa practices and games quite frequently. Coaches are smarter than to waste their time on a guy who is firmly committed like that.

And Joe Wieskamp is somehow unique from the other "top 49?" No other kids are that committed and you know that for a fact? You're going to tell me with a straight face that Wieskamp is the only commit in the "top 50" who doesn't have one single offer from the entire rest of the country (not even outside a 250 mile radius) because he's so hardcore and goes to Iowa practices and games...

I think you're a fanboy friend of a friend of a relative with his rose-colored Mitch King glasses on.

I'm not saying he's not a good player, but I don't think he's going to come in and start blowing everyone out of the water like you make him out.

 

[homes]

Flame away, but Wieskamp is way, way overblown. You guys who are paying attention to recruiting rankings are the same ones who pay attention to Mel Kiper. And please don’t bring up watching his film. He’s ringing up ridiculous stats because he’s playing high school juniors and seniors, of which probably 99.9% won’t even play community college ball, and his teammates do nothing but feed him all game long. There have to be 20 assists per game to Wieskamp. Big fish, small pond.

He’s supposedly ranked 50th in the country, but go take a look at the rest of the top 50. Just about all of those kids have 15, 20, 25 offers from top P5 schools. Wieskamp has 6 including Iowa, from ISU, UNI, Creighton, Nebraska, and Wisconsin. Not exactly tip top schools.

Trust me, college scouts and coaches know a hell of a lot more about what to look for in a recruit than a bunch of chumps at Rivals and 24/7. And don’t give me the crap about him not getting offers because he’s so hard core Iowa. That’s a load of manure; there are plenty of kids with 30 some offers who are committed already.

Why all the slings and arrows at Wieskamp? What is the basis for your assessment that he is "way, way overblown"?

 

[NikeHawk21]

Who am I being too harsh on? Garza? He has to develop physically and get strength. That is not a Fran thing.

Baer? Every team has a catalyst that doesn't quite belong but can spark something in a short time. Other of these players are more athletic.

CM? You just don't see many players in the Big shoot like him. At best he's a 2 and shooting isn't his main things. He also loses height by his form.

Don't see anything else as arguable.

Not those two. I’m not very high on Cmac either. Remember too I was talking about potential for what they can be next year.

Pemsl I would say was one for sure. He can be a quality role player in a P5 conference.

Freshman stats:
19.3 MPG / 8.9 PPG / 5.0 Reb / 61.7% FG

Struggled mightily this year at times I will admit but starting to improve as of late:
10 PPG / 4.5 Reb / 77% FG over last four games.

 

[lightning1]

Flame away, but Wieskamp is way, way overblown. You guys who are paying attention to recruiting rankings are the same ones who pay attention to Mel Kiper. And please don’t bring up watching his film. He’s ringing up ridiculous stats because he’s playing high school juniors and seniors, of which probably 99.9% won’t even play community college ball, and his teammates do nothing but feed him all game long. There have to be 20 assists per game to Wieskamp. Big fish, small pond.

He’s supposedly ranked 50th in the country, but go take a look at the rest of the top 50. Just about all of those kids have 15, 20, 25 offers from top P5 schools. Wieskamp has 6 including Iowa, from ISU, UNI, Creighton, Nebraska, and Wisconsin. Not exactly tip top schools.

Trust me, college scouts and coaches know a hell of a lot more about what to look for in a recruit than a bunch of chumps at Rivals and 24/7. And don’t give me the crap about him not getting offers because he’s so hard core Iowa. That’s a load of manure; there are plenty of kids with 30 some offers who are committed already.

No. He's not overblown. I've seen the kid play in person in high school and AAU tournaments. He can shoot from 3 and off the bounce. He can get to the rim. He's long for a 6'6 kid. He has ZERO help on that Muscatine roster, so he's constantly double teamed or triple teamed. The only thing I can't speak to is his on ball defense against P5 players like the ones he'll face in the BIG.
You can't disparage others for looking at the scouting sites and seeing his ranking - while you look at the scouting sites and see his offers list. JW committed the summer before his SO year in high school. All of the offers he has received in the mail aren't going to be passed on to these scouting services, unless he chooses to do it. College coaches still send them. They won't call these services and tell them that they just offered a kid that has been committed to his favorite local school. Why would they?

 

[Mountiejoe]

Let's keep in mind we're mainly rating freshmen and sophs. Iowa bball, just like Iowa FB, needs players to develop so they are all-conference level by their junior or senior year. So only having 1 senior who doesn't contribute in games is the true failure here. Will any of the current game-contributors be all-conference by their senior year? Cook - 1st team potential, Jbo-2nd or 3rd team potential, Moss - honorable mention potential, Garza - 3rd team potential, Nunge -???.

Having talented upperclassmen allows the underclassmen to acclimate to the college game & their own defined roles. Iowa does not get the talent level kids who are stars as underclassmen.

 

[SteveGarvey1]

Flame away, but Wieskamp is way, way overblown. You guys who are paying attention to recruiting rankings are the same ones who pay attention to Mel Kiper. And please don’t bring up watching his film. He’s ringing up ridiculous stats because he’s playing high school juniors and seniors, of which probably 99.9% won’t even play community college ball, and his teammates do nothing but feed him all game long. There have to be 20 assists per game to Wieskamp. Big fish, small pond.

He’s supposedly ranked 50th in the country, but go take a look at the rest of the top 50. Just about all of those kids have 15, 20, 25 offers from top P5 schools. Wieskamp has 6 including Iowa, from ISU, UNI, Creighton, Nebraska, and Wisconsin. Not exactly tip top schools.

Trust me, college scouts and coaches know a hell of a lot more about what to look for in a recruit than a bunch of chumps at Rivals and 24/7. And don’t give me the crap about him not getting offers because he’s so hard core Iowa. That’s a load of manure; there are plenty of kids with 30 some offers who are committed already.

Well, we really ought to just fire Fran now if Wieskamp is what you think he is. Or isn't.

 

[NikeHawk21]

A little bit of bias there...

I'd actually like you to make those phone calls. I'll admit I'm wrong.
So what you're telling us is that recruiting sites don't have a way of knowing who is offered what, but you trust them enough to say that a kid is ranked 37th vs 41st?


And Joe Wieskamp is somehow unique from the other "top 49?" No other kids are that committed and you know that for a fact? You're going to tell me with a straight face that Wieskamp is the only commit in the "top 50" who doesn't have one single offer from the entire rest of the country (not even outside a 250 mile radius) because he's so hardcore and goes to Iowa practices and games...

I think you're a fanboy friend of a friend of a relative with his rose-colored Mitch King glasses on.

I'm not saying he's not a good player, but I don't think he's going to come in and start blowing everyone out of the water like you make him out.

Umm... I’m not extremely high on Joe. I said he would probably come in and be a Role player next year. I don’t trust recruiting ranking sites, same reason I’ve been saying Connor and Pat are way overrated. And yes if memory serves correctly Joe was one of the first if not the first top player in his class to commit.

So to summarize, you are still very much wrong about the offer thing.

 

[mopkins]

We often hear during Iowa broadcasts that Iowa has the talent. I brought this up in another thread but do we actually feel that is true?

We know this season is a lost but below I looked at what kind of talent we have going into next year compared to other B1G players. (Star - 1st Team, All conference, Starter, Role Player, Scrub)

Cook - All conference (not a star until defense appears)

Garza - Starter (he’s probably average to below average starting Center in the league next year)

Bohannon - Starter? (He would start on a few B1G teams but not many)

Baer - Starter? / Role Player

Weiskamp - Top 50 recruit, could be Starter level but more likely Role player as a freshman

Nunge - Role Player (chance to develop into Starter type)

Pemsl - Role Player

Moss - Role Player?

Dailey - Role Player / Scrub

Kriener - Role Player / Scrub

Wagner - Role Player / Scrub

Cmac - ???

Again these are just my opinions of where these guys rank compared to other B1G players. To me we have an All-Conference guy, a few fringe starter types, and then a bunch of role players. Not exactly loaded with talent in my estimation. What do you think?

The problem with this list is the roster is still super young. When Dakota Mathias was a Sophomore at Purdue you would've labeled him a role player or a scrub. Look at him today. Hell, Travis Trice was basically a role player until he burst on the scene his senior year for Izzo.

This year Ohio State is led by 2 seniors, 2 Juniors and a Freshman. Purdue is led by 4 seniors and a Sophomore. The vast majority of the time, players take time to develop at the college level.

 

[lightning1]

A little bit of bias there...

I'd actually like you to make those phone calls. I'll admit I'm wrong.

It's not bias. I coach AAU kids, so I know a lot of people. I don't know JW or his high school coach. I've never coached the kid but I have coached against him. I do know his AAU coaches. And I do know how the recruiting game is played. I don't need to waste my time making calls to find out what I already know. Trust me. Or don't trust me. You'll see for yourself next season.
I question most of talent on Fran's roster but I don't question JW's talent or his work ethic. And it has nothing to do with recruiting services, rankings or offers list. I've seen it enough times in person.

 

[PCHawk]

Umm... I’m not extremely high on Joe. I said he would probably come in and be a Role player next year. I don’t trust recruiting ranking sites, same reason I’ve been saying Connor and Pat are way overrated. And yes if memory serves correctly Joe was one of the first if not the first top player in his class to commit.

So to summarize, you are still very much wrong about the offer thing.

I remember the top 25 list when Joe first committed. He was ranked 16th and was the only one in the top 25 to commit. He was the first for sure.

 

[NikeHawk21]

The problem with this list is the roster is still super young. When Dakota Mathias was a Sophomore at Purdue you would've labeled him a role player or a scrub. Look at him today. Hell, Travis Trice was basically a role player until he burst on the scene his senior year for Izzo.

This year Ohio State is led by 2 seniors, 2 Juniors and a Freshman. Purdue is led by 4 seniors and a Sophomore. The vast majority of the time, players take time to develop at the college level.

While I agree with your sentiment, my post is a projection for next year, where like or not we won’t be all that young anymore.

JBo - JR
Moss - JR (4th year)
Baer - SR
Cook - JR
Garza - SO

Basically saying I just don’t think we will have the talent next year to be a tournament team, and we won’t even be that young. Would need to see big improvements from several guys, which is possible but unlikely.

 

[lightning1]

Let's keep in mind we're mainly rating freshmen and sophs. Iowa bball, just like Iowa FB, needs players to develop so they are all-conference level by their junior or senior year. So only having 1 senior who doesn't contribute in games is the true failure here. Will any of the current game-contributors be all-conference by their senior year? Cook - 1st team potential, Jbo-2nd or 3rd team potential, Moss - honorable mention potential, Garza - 3rd team potential, Nunge -???.

Having talented upperclassmen allows the underclassmen to acclimate to the college game & their own defined roles. Iowa does not get the talent level kids who are stars as underclassmen.

And we only have 1 JR that contributes (Baer).

 

[ibahawkeye]

Cook - Yes
JBo- He's our best PG on the roster, one of the best shooters to wear a hawkeye jersey but I'm just not sure how much of the blame on D needs to be directed his way. There are certainly times that his shooting seems to more than make up for his deficiencies on D but then there are times that it doesn't and I think I would give up the 3 point shooting if we had a better defender.
Garza- I don't know how you can't be excited about this guy... he's a freshman big and he's had his ups and downs but I've seen enough ups that i think his future is very bright.

After these 3 is where the talent really drops in my opinion:

Moss - No consistency but other than Nunge, I think he might have the most potential
Nunge- Potential is there but haven't really seen it come to frui
Baer- Off the bench role player. He had the injury early in the year but his stats have certainly regressed in comparison to last year. points, rebounds, steals, assists, FG %, 3PT FG %, FT% are all down compared to last.
Pemsl- Same as Baer- he was better last year
Dailey- Again A role player

 

[mopkins]

While I agree with your sentiment, my post is a projection for next year, where like or not we won’t be all that young anymore.

JBo - JR
Moss - JR (4th year)
Baer - SR
Cook - JR
Garza - SO

Basically saying I just don’t think we will have the talent next year to be a tournament team, and we won’t even be that young. Would need to see big improvements from several guys, which is possible but unlikely.

I'll be curious to see what Nunge and Garza do this offseason. Freshman years tend to be wake-up calls for players who were used to dominating in high school. I still love Nunge's upside, and even if Garza just incrementally improves he's going to be a stud in a couple years.

It still doesn't address the glaring issues at PG and on defense though.

 

[HawkGold]

Not those two. I’m not very high on Cmac either. Remember too I was talking about potential for what they can be next year.

Pemsl I would say was one for sure. He can be a quality role player in a P5 conference.

Freshman stats:
19.3 MPG / 8.9 PPG / 5.0 Reb / 61.7% FG

Struggled mightily this year at times I will admit but starting to improve as of late:
10 PPG / 4.5 Reb / 77% FG over last four games.

His struggles are because he's undersized for what he is. Therefore the D2 rating. I do think he has decent skill set. Just too little and that won'd change. Hustle? He's great at that. There are some really good D2 players. Vince Brookins brother was one. He just wasn't big enough for D1 and ended up at SEMO. Kellen Winslow's brother played a lot like Pem. He was a terrific D2 player as he was too small for D1.

There is a kid at IL state that isn't playing much that was recruited at the same time as Pem by Iowa. The kid had much more upside and was 3 inches taller. He was faster and could do some cool above the basket stuff. I'd still take him over Pem and Pem is a favorite Hawkeye of mine by effort. The kids ranking was about like Moss. Another similar kids ended up in the Ivy league.

I got to watch Iowa recruiting a kid. There were other coaches there too. Recruiting other kids who are now Big contributors. Iowa never talked to those kids. Painter, Matta, IU, Weber, whoever NW's coach was then. It was funny to watch. The other coaches never talked to the other kid that Iowa was. He was mostly competing against Mo Valley type schools.

It's mostly about speed and you can't really see it until you see it when real D1 players are playing against other read D1 players. The only real way to watch it is at Holiday Tourneys in other states when they go head to head. AAU isn't the same. It's about showcasing offense.

In fairness, Happ wasn't highly recruited as a high level player. However, it was easy to see right away. It's easier to see also when you have good players around you.

We need Iowa to win 2 more including a mild upset and then pack it in this year. Lute Olson made the Final 4 with 1 great player and a bunch of role players outside of Kenny Arnold.

When I see the Iowa team that played IU in the Big Championship years ago, I wonder how that team didn't win the conference outright. They are so much better than a lot of what I see in the Big today.

 

[lightning1]

The problem with this list is the roster is still super young. When Dakota Mathias was a Sophomore at Purdue you would've labeled him a role player or a scrub. Look at him today. Hell, Travis Trice was basically a role player until he burst on the scene his senior year for Izzo.

This year Ohio State is led by 2 seniors, 2 Juniors and a Freshman. Purdue is led by 4 seniors and a Sophomore. The vast majority of the time, players take time to develop at the college level.

MSU is led by 4 SOs and a FR
Michigan is led by 2 SRs, 2 JRs and a SO but they have the #13 ranked class in 2018
Nebraska is led by 1 SR, 3 JRs and a SO.
PSU is led by 1 SR, 1 JR and 3 SOs.
NW is led by 3 SRs and 2 JRs but they are bringing in the 20th ranked class in 2018
Maryland is led by 3 SOs and 2 FR.
Indiana is led by 2 SRs, 1 JR and 2 SOs but they have the 19th ranked class in 2018
All of these teams are ahead of us in the BIG conference standings and we've lost by double digits to every team except Michigan. Every single one of those teams are better than us now and either return their entire rosters or are bringing in better classes than we have coming in. It's not a recipe for conference improvement.

 

[NikeHawk21]

His struggles are because he's undersized for what he is. Therefore the D2 rating. I do think he has decent skill set. Just too little and that won'd change. Hustle? He's great at that. There are some really good D2 players. Vince Brookins brother was one. He just wasn't big enough for D1 and ended up at SEMO. Kellen Winslow's brother played a lot like Pem. He was a terrific D2 player as he was too small for D1.

There is a kid at IL state that isn't playing much that was recruited at the same time as Pem by Iowa. The kid had much more upside and was 3 inches taller. He was faster and could do some cool above the basket stuff. I'd still take him over Pem and Pem is a favorite Hawkeye of mine by effort. The kids ranking was about like Moss. Another similar kids ended up in the Ivy league.

I got to watch Iowa recruiting a kid. There were other coaches there too. Recruiting other kids who are now Big contributors. Iowa never talked to those kids. Painter, Matta, IU, Weber, whoever NW's coach was then. It was funny to watch. The other coaches never talked to the other kid that Iowa was. He was mostly competing against Mo Valley type schools.

It's mostly about speed and you can't really see it until you see it when real D1 players are playing against other read D1 players. The only real way to watch it is at Holiday Tourneys in other states when they go head to head. AAU isn't the same. It's about showcasing offense.

In fairness, Happ wasn't highly recruited as a high level player. However, it was easy to see right away. It's easier to see also when you have good players around you.

We need Iowa to win 2 more including a mild upset and then pack it in this year. Lute Olson made the Final 4 with 1 great player and a bunch of role players outside of Kenny Arnold.

When I see the Iowa team that played IU in the Big Championship years ago, I wonder how that team didn't win the conference outright. They are so much better than a lot of what I see in the Big today.

I look at it as Pemsl has proven he can be an effective player at this level, regardless of his size. Bonzie Colson is a 6’5 power forward whose had tons of success at the D1 level.

Everything else is just kind of your thoughts, which you are entitled too.