The Lloyd Carr lesson as applied to KF-Would Mich do it that same way again???

[uihawk82]

I dont know or remember all the goings on with Lloyd Carr's removal as Mich head coach, except he was losing too much to OSU and UM was like 8-4 or 9-3 Carr's last year.

But looking back UM really screwed the pooch as they say by the probably knee jerk reaction of firing him and trying to shift to Rich Rod's offense. Now Brady Hoke is having a struggle as I have never seen Mich have since probably the mid to late 60's under our beloved Bump Elliott.

I have voiced my displeasure with KFs use of timeouts, not going for it on 4[SUP]th[/SUP] down sometimes, not blitzing and mixing it up. But Fire Ferentz, come on, even some people yesterday were calling in saying to Fire Ferentz.
If this season would have been 3-9 and next year 4-8 then I would be for change.
But just look at Michigan. They fired Lloyd Carr or “moved him to a VP job in the AD dept” if you want to describe it that way and then Carr and the Wolverines went out and blasted a good Florida team in a bowl game. I think that was the last show of power Michigan has had since Carr’s departure.
Be careful if you fire Ferentz without a good plan.

 

[ibahawkeye]

I agree and mich has more $ and more tradition than Iowa.

I know somebody else brought up Tennessee and as another school that has went through a couple coaches recently and continue to struggle to get the program back to where it was.

It's not easy to win in college football. There are going to be some ups and downs.

We've been down but it feels like we're on our way back up again.

 

[olddude]

My biggest complaint has been his inability to go with the flow. Different players stand a better chance in different games. Getting a 4th and one changes the tempo of a game. Getting a strip after a punt changes even more than just tempo.
That said i am not a big one for firing anyone without very just cause. Football moves fast, when you think you have it, its gone. You have to be on a swivel, and adjust adjust adjust. After yesterday i am hopeful that point has come to light again.

 

[ColoradoHAWKEYE]

Going to have to wait and see how next season plays out anyways. Agree that there are A LOT of respectful schools out there that would trade places with iowa in an instant.

It was interesting to hear holtz and may debate out whether Florida should be pulling the trigger or not after 3 terrible years, this being their worst year in like 40 some years, and they used Va Tech (i think) as an example of patience for allowing a coach a long leash (our situation is much different then a new hire, but in the setting of a new coach it could be that long...ie see mich examle in last post.)

Who knows what those coaches all over the country do for their programs behind the w/l record. Kfz does many good things for the hawks, and you never hear ex-players bad mouth him or the program. Everyone "wants" to win.

The problem as we have experienced has not been "embarrasing" to our school, and we are not "the laughingstock" of college football as some others on here "try" to say. Our problem seems to be more with in game play calling and adjustments and inexplicable game/clock mgmt.....it is a veey frustrating thing to see play out wek after week.

I dont know the solution, (maybe to have kf admit he needs to release some in game control to gd, or hire someone to be a voice in his ear, that he listens too), but he does have us in a position to win 8 or 9 (w bowl) games this year (way more than many ever thought).

Regardless of how or to whom those w's arrive. We dont have to love him, but he is better than many alternatives or bad hires in changing our program to be in the top 20 again, which is what we, and 90 other schools want.

 

[LASBUR]

Funny thing, as I heard it KF was Mich first choice to replace Carr. Thought RR was a terrible choice. Like Hoke. But am surprised by this year. I agree it just goes to show how hard it is to win at this level even if most on here dont understand that

 

[volhawk50]

I agree and mich has more $ and more tradition than Iowa.

I know somebody else brought up Tennessee and as another school that has went through a couple coaches recently and continue to struggle to get the program back to where it was.

It's not easy to win in college football. There are going to be some ups and downs.

We've been down but it feels like we're on our way back up again.

You are correct and 82 is also correct but he should've named the thread The Philip Fulmer Lesson, because the Tennessee mistake was so much worse. Michigan replaced their successful coach with a Lickliter type, a guy who was successful somewhere else but just didn't work well for them. Tennessee fired a coach who won almost 10 games per year, six division titles, two conference titles and a national title, and replaced him with a guy who had coached the Raiders to about a .300 record and had never been a college head coach (and when he bolted, they hired someone arguably even less proven and less qualified).

That was 82's point: don't fire your accomplished coach just because, and then replace him with just anyone. I don't think any of us would be upset if Barta fired the coach tomorrow because he has someone like Bob Stoops on the line. What's more likely is he fires Ferentz, as OP said, without a good plan, then we end up with someone like Derek Dooley and soon enough we are where Purdue is now.

 

[bigjim]

Wih me being from TN and a Vol fan I don't want to see my Hawks go through what the Vols are going through right now. If they get rid of Ferentz I hope and pray they have got it all planned out and don't do it at the last minute. GO HAWKS!

 

[weezer]

Sometimes the grass isn't greener on the other side.

 

[uihawk82]

You are correct and 82 is also correct but he should've named the thread The Philip Fulmer Lesson, because the Tennessee mistake was so much worse. Michigan replaced their successful coach with a

where Purdue is now.

Yeah, I definitely know what Tennessee did and wanted more to make a B1G type comparison. Yes, Tennessee and Michigan were identical with both coaches having won national titles, league championships, etc and fulmer and Carr had neither really crapped out.

Of course there are a lot of egos involved and big money donors who want control.

KF tries to maintain a high graduation rate, a clean program, and now doesnt want to recruit even close-to-bad apples, even if they may be highly touted.

 

[brhawks18]

Funny thing, as I heard it KF was Mich first choice to replace Carr. Thought RR was a terrible choice. Like Hoke. But am surprised by this year. I agree it just goes to show how hard it is to win at this level even if most on here dont understand that

I am in Detroit, Ann Arbor and Lansing/East Lansing often on business.

KF was partially UM's choice. It was mostly Coleman and Carr who wanted him. Many fans, including a few big boosters, liked KF but didn't particularly care for KOK as part of the package. As Jon has pointed out for several years now, it's not who the OC is as much as it's what KF wants to run offensively.

With that said, in my position as an armchair QB I'd take the offense KOK ran over GD. If things fall apart in Miami, is it possible for GD to retire and KOK to come back? I'm not a fan of the conservative nature of KF offensively, but are there any good alternatives out there for Iowa?

 

[okeefe4prez]

You are correct and 82 is also correct but he should've named the thread The Philip Fulmer Lesson, because the Tennessee mistake was so much worse. Michigan replaced their successful coach with a Lickliter type, a guy who was successful somewhere else but just didn't work well for them. Tennessee fired a coach who won almost 10 games per year, six division titles, two conference titles and a national title, and replaced him with a guy who had coached the Raiders to about a .300 record and had never been a college head coach (and when he bolted, they hired someone arguably even less proven and less qualified).

That was 82's point: don't fire your accomplished coach just because, and then replace him with just anyone. I don't think any of us would be upset if Barta fired the coach tomorrow because he has someone like Bob Stoops on the line. What's more likely is he fires Ferentz, as OP said, without a good plan, then we end up with someone like Derek Dooley and soon enough we are where Purdue is now.

good post. Part of Michigan's mistake was their desire to let Rodriguez completely rejigger their program to a full on spread and a 3-3-5 defense, neither of which a program like Michigan needs to rely on. With those changes, Michigan stopped recruiting its historic type of ball players and a lot of the in state talent has moved to Sparty. Hoke called a real turd of a game yesterday, though. That program looks like it has fallen a long way.

 

[kmurp]

Wih me being from TN and a Vol fan I don't want to see my Hawks go through what the Vols are going through right now. If they get rid of Ferentz I hope and pray they have got it all planned out and don't do it at the last minute. GO HAWKS!

They are having a great year in recruiting though. Of course, in the SEC, almost everyone does.

 

[okeefe4prez]

I am in Detroit, Ann Arbor and Lansing/East Lansing often on business.

KF was partially UM's choice. It was mostly Sally Mason and Carr who wanted him. Many fans, including a few big boosters, liked KF but didn't particularly care for KOK as part of the package. As Jon has pointed out for several years now, it's not who the OC is as much as it's what KF wants to run offensively.

With that said, in my position as an armchair QB I'd take the offense KOK ran over GD. If things fall apart in Miami, is it possible for GD to retire and KOK to come back? I'm not a fan of the conservative nature of KF offensively, but are there any good alternatives out there for Iowa?

Excellent post. I liked what Davis did yesterday. With the bye, perhaps we'll see another few wrinkles in the final two games. I think those games can go either way, but if Davis puts up 3 TDs in each and controls the clock, I could maybe get behind him. This season has definitely exceeded my expectations.

 

[Sooby]

Michigan should have seen what happened to Nebraska, earlier.
Nebraska pushes out Frank Solich, and had to settle on Beau Bridges (Bill Callahan).
Michigan pushes out Lloyd Carr, and had to settle on Rich Rod (a coach who should have played in the NC game, but lost to a 4-7 team on this home turf on the last game of the season).

Tennessee AD and others were enamored with the "Buy 1, Get 1 Free" with Lane and Monty Kiffin.
It'll be a long time until Lane gets a job without his Dad with him.

The Derek Dooley hire was laughable. Tennessee was desperate to find a warm body for a coach, and gave Derek Dooley $7.5M in guaranteed money. UT could have given Dooley half of that, and we would have said, yes.

 

[tksirius]

Sometimes the grass isn't greener on the other side.

Can't get much more chit brown at this point though.

 

[judzeehawk]

Without going back and double checking I also read where in 2010 Michigan had like 20 recruits and there are only 9 left today. I also saw some of the same things posted at Ohio state. What I'm trying to say is these 4 and 5 * kids just aren't working out. Bad grades getting into trouble and just leaving the programs. We all know how that works out! It sets a program back a few years.

 

[judzeehawk]

Can't get much more chit brown at this point though.

Are you really serious?

 

[trj]

I can't remember how that even went down.....did Lloyd Carr get the Tom Davis "retirement" ?

 

[okeefe4prez]

Without going back and double checking I also read where in 2010 Michigan had like 20 recruits and there are only 9 left today. I also saw some of the same things posted at Ohio state. What I'm trying to say is these 4 and 5 * kids just aren't working out. Bad grades getting into trouble and just leaving the programs. We all know how that works out! It sets a program back a few years.

Good point. We've also had fairly mediocre results with some of our highly ranked recruits. Guys don't always pan out.

 

[uihawk82]

I can't remember how that even went down.....did Lloyd Carr get the Tom Davis "retirement" ?

No they were not the same. Bowlsby didnt renew or extend Tom Davis's contract so he knew and everyone knew he was 'retiring' at the end of the season, a season that his player's played their arses off because he was a great coach.

Carr at michigan just got retired after the end of the regular season but they let him coach the bowl game, very weird deal. And the MIchigan Off line and Mike Hart just burned Florida.