Story: How Hawkeyes Match Up with Purdue from Recruiting Standpoint

[Northside Hawk]

So, so true.

How is a player going to react when they can't get by on sheer ability anymore?

When every other player on the floor has their talent?

When they face the fact for the first time that they have weaknesses in their game, and that they to improve the weaknesses to get better?

Who can tune out the outside noise from their entourages and shoe hounds, etc., and listen to their coaches?

Who can handle honesty and constructive criticism?

Who are the late bloomer physically? Mentally?

Figure out the answers to those and more questions and you can probably figure out why Kyle Korver has been in the NBA for over a decade while Diamond Stone can't stick.

 

[teachercoach]

'Player development' assuming talent being somewhat comparable. That is coaching, program operation.

Do Iowa assistants have specific roles? I don't know enough to answer that.

Is there a shooting coach (Gary Close was the reason for the Tom Davis / Bo Ryan shooters)?
Who is the post coach (see Jan Jensen w/ women)?
Is there a 'Def Coordinator' (watch Michigan timeouts, listen to TxTech coach talk about their assistants)?
Some schools do have assistants who don't do a ton of indy work w/ players, just recruit.


Interesting how some praise Iowa basketball opponents for 'player development' & how 'their players get better' comparing to Iowa, yet when the sport is football being a 'developmental program' is viewed by many as a negative label.

 

[RobHowe]

'Player development' assuming talent being somewhat comparable. That is coaching, program operation.

Do Iowa assistants have specific roles? I don't know enough to answer that.

Is there a shooting coach (Gary Close was the reason for the Tom Davis / Bo Ryan shooters)?
Who is the post coach (see Jan Jensen w/ women)?
Is there a 'Def Coordinator' (watch Michigan timeouts, listen to TxTech coach talk about their assistants)?
Some schools do have assistants who don't do a ton of indy work w/ players, just recruit.


Interesting how some praise Iowa basketball opponents for 'player development' & how 'their players get better' comparing to Iowa, yet when the sport is football being a 'developmental program' is viewed by many as a negative label.

Speraw is the shooting coach. Francis is the post coach.

 

[Hawkfnntn]

Difference is their PG developed into a 5 star talent at the position.. Edwards has been a big time difference making player for them the last 2 yrs. That position to me is the most important in college ball. Having a player like that can just elevate everyone else. I agree talent wise beyond that we aren't too different. Lots of teams wish they had a front court combination of Cook and Garza. Plus Wieskamp and Baer. Shooters like Moss and JBo when their hot.
So yeah the difference to me isn't just how they play defense (although that can be one too) it's having a stud PG running the overall show that can dominate the game a couple different ways.

 

[tksirius]

Speraw is the shooting coach. Francis is the post coach.

Did you ever send your info to Tamisha with SprintCare? She really wants to help.

 

[lightning1]

'Player development' assuming talent being somewhat comparable. That is coaching, program operation.

Do Iowa assistants have specific roles? I don't know enough to answer that.

Is there a shooting coach (Gary Close was the reason for the Tom Davis / Bo Ryan shooters)?
Who is the post coach (see Jan Jensen w/ women)?
Is there a 'Def Coordinator' (watch Michigan timeouts, listen to TxTech coach talk about their assistants)?
Some schools do have assistants who don't do a ton of indy work w/ players, just recruit.


Interesting how some praise Iowa basketball opponents for 'player development' & how 'their players get better' comparing to Iowa, yet when the sport is football being a 'developmental program' is viewed by many as a negative label.

The truth is, developmental coaching at this level, isn't nearly as important as whether or not the players will go into the gym on their own time and put in the right kind of work. Speraw can spend 60 minutes on correcting 1 player's shooting form but it won't make 1 bit of difference if that player doesn't put in the hours needed to implement those changes. Fran can tell a player they need to dribble with their head up, until the cows come home. That player has to go to the gym and practice dribbling with his head up, for hours and hours and hours. On his own.
What these coaches can do is coach the IQ part of their games, with film and practice sessions, etc. Coach their team concepts. And the coach ultimately controls how hard the players are willing to work on their games, by handing out playing time.
This goes directly towards mental toughness. Mentally tough players will spend the time working on the weaknesses in their games. mentally tough players accept criticism for what it is. Mentally tough players are coachable.
How to find and recruit mentally tough players? I start and stop with defense and rebounding. There are few accolades involved in playing defense to the best of your ability. So, it's completely on the player to decide that's what he's going to do. I wouldn't recruit a player that hasn't shown the ability to defend and rebound. From any position. That's a choice that involves effort with little or no stats to brag about.
If a player hasn't made the decision to defend and rebound by the time they are in 10th grade, how coachable could they possibly be?

 

[STILLBUSTER]

Some people will make excuses out of anything. Any opportunity. You're that guy.

Yes, this is long but it's correct and it's cathertic...

There's no denying Iowa was in bad shape after Lickliter but this decade old "woe is Iowa" narrative that it was the most destroyed, fallen from grace program in the country is way too overplayed. With the fluidity of basketball from season to season - it only takes one stud and a competent supporting cast (players or coaches) to turn around.

Look at a team like Va Tech, Auburn, even Liberty. The thing you see is when they get "that guy" - player or coach or both - you see an upward trend, with performance improving and matching (sometimes exceeding) expectation at it's peak. You look at Iowa and it's an up and down discombobulation with the same players, year to year.

Perfect example last 3 seasons with virtually the same core guys, year over year - TC, JoBo, Moss, Baer. You just don't see the inexplicable inconsistencies and under-performance from "peer" teams with similarly rated talent - let alone, with the additions of highly rated talent (Garza, Jo-Vies, Nunge).

This is a TOTAL exposure / indictment of COACHING.
Fran has lost a more than his share of winnable games due to:
poor strategy
- ill-timed man defense;
- took 9 years to recognize zone should be primary with the length but lack of athleticism;
- took 8 years to finally minimize the f-ing hedging and leaving the basket undefended
- zero timely use of time-outs

poor player management
- scripted platoon rotations;
- horrible combinations with 2 or 3 of 5 players being zero threat on either end of the floor;
- misuse of players outside their skill set - TC, TC, TC
- little skill-set development - ESPECIALLY the 4's and 5's (does a single guy on staff know post play?)

(Feel free to add because there's no doubt other issues.)

You give Bruce Pearl, Buzz Williams, Matt Painter, (I'll throw in Lisa Bluder!) with the last 5-7 years of core talent

Gabe, Basabe, Marble, White, Uthoff, Gesell, Woodbury, Clemons, May, Jok, JoBo, Moss, Cook, Baer and now, Garza, Jo-Vies, and Touissant ...

you would've had consistent NCAA 2nd round and 2 or 3 sweet 16's (2013, 2015 / 2016, this year) because those coaches would've not allowed Iowa to shit their bed at various games and untimely stretches of the season (thus, lowering their seed and making it more difficult).

Those coaches would've taken that load of 3+ and 4* talent - many played together, for multiple years - and utilizated, strategized and developed them to the sweet 16 (or beyond) teams they had the potential to be.

Fran has that opportunity, next year, especially if TC and Moss return.
The entire starting line-up is 4* guys (JoBo, JoWies, Toussaint, Moss, Cook, Garza, as are the McCaffery boys)
He has 8 f-ing 4* guys + Kriener, Nunge, Pemsl and Frederick!!

It's time to start doing more with more! Unfortunately, I have little confidence in his (and his staff's) ability to utilize, strategize and maximize up to potiential.

 

[STILLBUSTER]

'Player development' assuming talent being somewhat comparable. That is coaching, program operation.

Do Iowa assistants have specific roles? I don't know enough to answer that.

Is there a shooting coach (Gary Close was the reason for the Tom Davis / Bo Ryan shooters)?
Who is the post coach (see Jan Jensen w/ women)?
Is there a 'Def Coordinator' (watch Michigan timeouts, listen to TxTech coach talk about their assistants)?
Some schools do have assistants who don't do a ton of indy work w/ players, just recruit.


Interesting how some praise Iowa basketball opponents for 'player development' & how 'their players get better' comparing to Iowa, yet when the sport is football being a 'developmental program' is viewed by many as a negative label.

Apples and oranges. Bball is MUCH more suited to plug-n-play. Problem is Fran plugs 'em, unplugs 'em, then plugs 'em the wrong way, short-circuits.

KF's usually lauded, not critized for his development. The gripe is more frustration that he starts with lower talent and development is necessary, culminating in NFL ability that wasn't realized at Iowa. A more prominent gripe of KF is his stagnant, dogmatic scheme that often minimizes opportunity for higher success - especially when he HAS high level talent.

With F-Mac, he starts with stronger talent (he has had three or four- 4* players, each of the last several seasons and will have EIGHT, next season if Cook and Moss return) and there is virtually NO development. It's compounded by bad strategy and misuse. It's perpetuated by inherent limitations in his style and his assistants' positional coaching abilities. (The entire crew is a collective of low, mid-major, guard-orientated experience - that is, if they even played the game - everyone of which experienced mediocre success.)

 

[HawkPrdatr40]

I also think Cook spent his entire off season trying to turn his weaknesses into strengths instead of focusing on making his strengths even better and maybe his weaknesses a little less bad. When the season came around, he tried to showcase his weaknesses instead of showcasing his strengths. That would be like if Bohannon quit shooting 3s and spent the whole season trying to show he could penetrate. I think that miscalculation by Cook and Fran hurt the team a bit.

That’s Quite the assumption!! Sorry but if any player worked an entire offseason on improving his weaknesses I certainly would expect atleast a tiny improvement.

 

[HawkPrdatr40]

Speraw is the shooting coach. Francis is the post coach.

Francis needs FIRED than!

 

[PCHawk]

Yes, this is long but it's correct and it's cathertic...

There's no denying Iowa was in bad shape after Lickliter but this decade old "woe is Iowa" narrative that it was the most destroyed, fallen from grace program in the country is way too overplayed. With the fluidity of basketball from season to season - it only takes one stud and a competent supporting cast (players or coaches) to turn around.

Look at a team like Va Tech, Auburn, even Liberty. The thing you see is when they get "that guy" - player or coach or both - you see an upward trend, with performance improving and matching (sometimes exceeding) expectation at it's peak. You look at Iowa and it's an up and down discombobulation with the same players, year to year.

Perfect example last 3 seasons with virtually the same core guys, year over year - TC, JoBo, Moss, Baer. You just don't see the inexplicable inconsistencies and under-performance from "peer" teams with similarly rated talent - let alone, with the additions of highly rated talent (Garza, Jo-Vies, Nunge).

This is a TOTAL exposure / indictment of COACHING.
Fran has lost a more than his share of winnable games due to:
poor strategy
- ill-timed man defense;
- took 9 years to recognize zone should be primary with the length but lack of athleticism;
- took 8 years to finally minimize the f-ing hedging and leaving the basket undefended
- zero timely use of time-outs

poor player management
- scripted platoon rotations;
- horrible combinations with 2 or 3 of 5 players being zero threat on either end of the floor;
- misuse of players outside their skill set - TC, TC, TC
- little skill-set development - ESPECIALLY the 4's and 5's (does a single guy on staff know post play?)

(Feel free to add because there's no doubt other issues.)

You give Bruce Pearl, Buzz Williams, Matt Painter, (I'll throw in Lisa Bluder!) with the last 5-7 years of core talent

Gabe, Basabe, Marble, White, Uthoff, Gesell, Woodbury, Clemons, May, Jok, JoBo, Moss, Cook, Baer and now, Garza, Jo-Vies, and Touissant ...

you would've had consistent NCAA 2nd round and 2 or 3 sweet 16's (2013, 2015 / 2016, this year) because those coaches would've not allowed Iowa to shit their bed at various games and untimely stretches of the season (thus, lowering their seed and making it more difficult).

Those coaches would've taken that load of 3+ and 4* talent - many played together, for multiple years - and utilizated, strategized and developed them to the sweet 16 (or beyond) teams they had the potential to be.

Fran has that opportunity, next year, especially if TC and Moss return.
The entire starting line-up is 4* guys (JoBo, JoWies, Toussaint, Moss, Cook, Garza, as are the McCaffery boys)
He has 8 f-ing 4* guys + Kriener, Nunge, Pemsl and Frederick!!

It's time to start doing more with more! Unfortunately, I have little confidence in his (and his staff's) ability to utilize, strategize and maximize up to potiential.

I gotta say, this is probably the most positive post on Fran's recruiting that I've ever read on here. Most people think Fran recruits average at best. You think he recruits teams that can just glide to the sweet 16 if it weren't for his junior high coaching.

 

[tksirius]

Hate to use frans words but you have to look at “body of work” as a program comparing the Keady/painter era 1980- to present there’s a lot of continuity and consistency as a program during that time compared to the Olson/raveling/Davis/Alford/ Lickliter/McCaffrey era during the same time period.comparing Keady’s last 3 years to Lickliter’s 3 Is short sighted in determining who had the worse starting point,now if you want to argue who Is the better coach you won’t find me sticking up for Fran at this time as Purdue is still playing,but fortunes change year to year

We can go back 6 years prior to Fran and Painter taking over. Let's look at that.

Let's recap 2 and 3 seasons prior:

Keady's last season overall was 7-21 (B1G was 3-13). His last 2 overall were 24-35 (B1G was 10-22).

Lick's last season overall was 10-22 (B1G was 4-14). His last 2 overall were 25-38 (B1G was 9-27).

3 seasons prior to Painter: (Keady)
Overall: 19-11, 17-14, 7-21 (43-46) (.483)
B1G: 10-6, 7-9, 3-13 (20-28) (.416)

3 seasons prior to Fran: (Lickliter)
Overall: 13-19, 15-16, 10-22 (38-57) (.400)
B1G: 6-12, 5-13, 4-14 (15-39) (.278)

------------------------------------------

Here's what the prior 6 seasons look like:

6 seasons prior to Painter: (Keady)
Overall: 97-89 (.521)
B1G: 43-53 (.447)

6 seasons prior to Fran: (Alford & Lickliter)
Overall: 101-92 (.523)
B1G: 42-60 (.411)

It's pretty clear that the programs were pretty much equally shitty prior to the current coaches taking over.

 

[atomicblue224]

That's weird, Tennessee played on overtime, won one and lost one v.s B1G teams.

 

[STILLBUSTER]

I gotta say, this is probably the most positive post on Fran's recruiting that I've ever read on here. Most people think Fran recruits average at best. You think he recruits teams that can just glide to the sweet 16 if it weren't for his junior high coaching.

Snarky aside ... Look at any of my basketball posts over the last 9 years and you will be hard pressed to find a single one griping about his recruiting. Never been one of the, "He always falls short of a 'true' / quality pg ... " crowd.

1) I think Marble, Gesell, JoBo are more than adequate pg's for what I want to see in a pg - leadership, high IQ (both of the game and of their own skills - most of the time), smart, set-up and dish. If they are quick / can drive and dish= bonus. All that AND defend= SPECIAL!

2) I'm not one of the sycophants who is obsessed that the game has "evolved" to be all about the guards. I think quality, tough, aggressive post play is equally, maybe more, important.

I've rarely said a peep about this Staff's coaching, utilization of guards. Why would I? It's their limited forte.

I've consistently and strongly criticized this Staff on point #2 (as well as strategy to skill set and bad player management / utilization to game flow). From toughness and effort to positioning, timing and understanding the basic physics of the position they fail miserably at coaching 'em up. I firmly believe it's because they come with an extremely limited understanding of the position due to being guard-oriented in style and experience.

Never said "glide" to any sweet 16. Do say, 3, maybe 4 yrs (of 9) they were good enough to be and, with the ample amount of quality talent over the last 6-7 seasons, they were good enough to have consistently better results than what they did.

Jr. High? Didn't say that ... Mid-Major / D-2 and certainly, limited? Guilty!

All said, please don't tip-toe on the snarky, ad-hominem crap, PC. There's already way to much low-integrity, low-substance b.s. being spewed. You're better than that! Debate / Dispute my points.

 

[lightning1]

Yes, this is long but it's correct and it's cathertic...

There's no denying Iowa was in bad shape after Lickliter but this decade old "woe is Iowa" narrative that it was the most destroyed, fallen from grace program in the country is way too overplayed. With the fluidity of basketball from season to season - it only takes one stud and a competent supporting cast (players or coaches) to turn around.

Look at a team like Va Tech, Auburn, even Liberty. The thing you see is when they get "that guy" - player or coach or both - you see an upward trend, with performance improving and matching (sometimes exceeding) expectation at it's peak. You look at Iowa and it's an up and down discombobulation with the same players, year to year.

Perfect example last 3 seasons with virtually the same core guys, year over year - TC, JoBo, Moss, Baer. You just don't see the inexplicable inconsistencies and under-performance from "peer" teams with similarly rated talent - let alone, with the additions of highly rated talent (Garza, Jo-Vies, Nunge).

This is a TOTAL exposure / indictment of COACHING.
Fran has lost a more than his share of winnable games due to:
poor strategy
- ill-timed man defense;
- took 9 years to recognize zone should be primary with the length but lack of athleticism;
- took 8 years to finally minimize the f-ing hedging and leaving the basket undefended
- zero timely use of time-outs

poor player management
- scripted platoon rotations;
- horrible combinations with 2 or 3 of 5 players being zero threat on either end of the floor;
- misuse of players outside their skill set - TC, TC, TC
- little skill-set development - ESPECIALLY the 4's and 5's (does a single guy on staff know post play?)

(Feel free to add because there's no doubt other issues.)

You give Bruce Pearl, Buzz Williams, Matt Painter, (I'll throw in Lisa Bluder!) with the last 5-7 years of core talent

Gabe, Basabe, Marble, White, Uthoff, Gesell, Woodbury, Clemons, May, Jok, JoBo, Moss, Cook, Baer and now, Garza, Jo-Vies, and Touissant ...

you would've had consistent NCAA 2nd round and 2 or 3 sweet 16's (2013, 2015 / 2016, this year) because those coaches would've not allowed Iowa to shit their bed at various games and untimely stretches of the season (thus, lowering their seed and making it more difficult).

Those coaches would've taken that load of 3+ and 4* talent - many played together, for multiple years - and utilizated, strategized and developed them to the sweet 16 (or beyond) teams they had the potential to be.

Fran has that opportunity, next year, especially if TC and Moss return.
The entire starting line-up is 4* guys (JoBo, JoWies, Toussaint, Moss, Cook, Garza, as are the McCaffery boys)
He has 8 f-ing 4* guys + Kriener, Nunge, Pemsl and Frederick!!

It's time to start doing more with more! Unfortunately, I have little confidence in his (and his staff's) ability to utilize, strategize and maximize up to potiential.

You're going on the assumption that those rankings mean anything. They don't. If you want to better understand the talent level on this team, look at each player's offers list. Compare it to the area they live in and what regional P6 schools are on that offer list. If none of the successful programs in that player's immediate area are on that offer list, there's a good reason. A really good reason. Those reasons aren't always talent based. Sometime's they are roster based, coaching based, etc. But that typically explains why 1 program didn't offer. Not the 6 or 7 surrounding programs that could have offered but didn't.

 

[earlhamhawk]

We can go back 6 years prior to Fran and Painter taking over. Let's look at that.

Let's recap 2 and 3 seasons prior:

Keady's last season overall was 7-21 (B1G was 3-13). His last 2 overall were 24-35 (B1G was 10-22).

Lick's last season overall was 10-22 (B1G was 4-14). His last 2 overall were 25-38 (B1G was 9-27).

3 seasons prior to Painter: (Keady)
Overall: 19-11, 17-14, 7-21 (43-46) (.483)
B1G: 10-6, 7-9, 3-13 (20-28) (.416)

3 seasons prior to Fran: (Lickliter)
Overall: 13-19, 15-16, 10-22 (38-57) (.400)
B1G: 6-12, 5-13, 4-14 (15-39) (.278)

------------------------------------------

Here's what the prior 6 seasons look like:

6 seasons prior to Painter: (Keady)
Overall: 97-89 (.521)
B1G: 43-53 (.447)

6 seasons prior to Fran: (Alford & Lickliter)
Overall: 101-92 (.523)
B1G: 42-60 (.411)

It's pretty clear that the programs were pretty much equally shitty prior to the current coaches taking over.

Yet during that time period Purdue had a run to the elite 8 and made it to the round of 32, we didn’t even come close to that,Purdue’s program had been on a completely different level, you will get no argument from me about success since but the playing field was anything but even when both took over

 

[RobHowe]

Did you ever send your info to Tamisha with SprintCare? She really wants to help.

F Sprint.

 

[tksirius]

Yet during that time period Purdue had a run to the elite 8 and made it to the round of 32, we didn’t even come close to that,Purdue’s program had been on a completely different level, you will get no argument from me about success since but the playing field was anything but even when both took over

They both had 2 NCAA appearances. One of those was an Elite 8 for Purdue. Every other statistic puts them on par with each other for the time period. Does a single Elite 8 appearance 6 years prior to Painter taking over really make that huge of a difference?

I get it, you want to defend Fran so bad that you'll take the risk of convincing everybody on HN that you're delusional. I'm not saying Fran is a horrible coach; he's simply not in the same league as Painter. Please try to be more objective.

 

[PCHawk]

Snarky aside ... Look at any of my basketball posts over the last 9 years and you will be hard pressed to find a single one griping about his recruiting. Never been one of the, "He always falls short of a 'true' / quality pg ... " crowd.

1) I think Marble, Gesell, JoBo are more than adequate pg's for what I want to see in a pg - leadership, high IQ (both of the game and of their own skills - most of the time), smart, set-up and dish. If they are quick / can drive and dish= bonus. All that AND defend= SPECIAL!

2) I'm not one of the sycophants who is obsessed that the game has "evolved" to be all about the guards. I think quality, tough, aggressive post play is equally, maybe more, important.

I've rarely said a peep about this Staff's coaching, utilization of guards. Why would I? It's their limited forte.

I've consistently and strongly criticized this Staff on point #2 (as well as strategy to skill set and bad player management / utilization to game flow). From toughness and effort to positioning, timing and understanding the basic physics of the position they fail miserably at coaching 'em up. I firmly believe it's because they come with an extremely limited understanding of the position due to being guard-oriented in style and experience.

Never said "glide" to any sweet 16. Do say, 3, maybe 4 yrs (of 9) they were good enough to be and, with the ample amount of quality talent over the last 6-7 seasons, they were good enough to have consistently better results than what they did.

Jr. High? Didn't say that ... Mid-Major / D-2 and certainly, limited? Guilty!

All said, please don't tip-toe on the snarky, ad-hominem crap, PC. There's already way to much low-integrity, low-substance b.s. being spewed. You're better than that! Debate / Dispute my points.

My only debate is I think you are undervaluing his coaching and overvaluing is recruiting. Most of the players you listed fall into the fairly good category. I'd say our results are also fairly good over the last 7 years. Not counting last year of course. I'd say Fran has been pretty close to 3 sweet 16s. Twice they lost some winnable games down the stretch to give them a worse seed than they probably should have had. This year they lost a couple games late and almost won. The results everyone is demanding isn't that far away. Not enough to be a difference between sucks and good.

 

[PCHawk]

They both had 2 NCAA appearances. One of those was an Elite 8 for Purdue. Every other statistic puts them on par with each other for the time period. Does a single Elite 8 appearance 6 years prior to Painter taking over really make that huge of a difference?

I get it, you want to defend Fran so bad that you'll take the risk of convincing everybody on HN that you're delusional. I'm not saying Fran is a horrible coach; he's simply not in the same league as Painter. Please try to be more objective.

I'm surprised by the results prior to Painter. I didn't remember Purdue struggling so bad. Good job with the info. But you still gotta admit it's a hell of a lot easier to build at Purdue than it is Iowa. I thought I've heard somewhere that the state is pretty high up in producing D1 talent. Is that true?