Story: How Hawkeyes Match Up with Purdue from Recruiting Standpoint
- Thread starter RobHowe
- Start date
hawkinarkansas
Well-Known Member
I appreciate the delicate line you walked here Rob, but if the classes are technically similar as evaluated by the various rating services, doesn't it come down to coaching? As best I can see, that is the strongest variable out there that is not accounted for.
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I think with a program like Iowa, you have to always have your team in a position where if you end up with one elite player, you can take advantage and have a special season. Marble and White were close to that player but the team didn't quite have the supporting cast to take advantage of it. Uthoff may have been that player, and he did have the supporting cast, but couldn't close out games, lost confidence along with tournament position, and fell shirt. This team for sure has the supporting cast, but doesn't quite have the elite player. Cook could be that guy next year. Wieskamp could potentially too. I think if Cook does come back, they really have a shot at being a legit top 15 team that is capable of making a really deep run.
RobHowe
Administrator
Coaching is certainly an element. And Painter is one of the best in the business, who some Purdue fans wanted to run off a few years ago, BTW.
I had someone on Twitter suggest that if Iowa could get Edwards for one of it's guards, that would make all the difference. Obviously, the kid is one of the top college players right now.
I wonder if the better trade might be Edwards for Cook. They have a comparable pedigree. And I'm just talking from a recruiting standpoint. No way Purdue makes that trade right now.
Recruiting rankings being wrong is a variable too. They were wrong on Edwards and he is the main reason for Purdue's season.
NikeHawk21
Well-Known Member
I think this is a really good comparison.
What’s interesting about Iowa is many have speculated that we do have some talent, which sometimes looks pretty good when it’s going well. I think the issue for us is just that Bohannon and Garza have serious limitations on defense, and then you add Cook in there who I would consider below average on that end, we can be exposed at times. Put another way I think Iowa has some talent, but its not necessarily the right “mix” of talent.
I doubted Purdue all year but they really do have a nice mix. Tough to defend with Edwards one of the best scorers in the country surrounded by a shooter like Cline. Then you have a 7 footer who moves well setting screens. The other two starters are good defenders and Eastern pressures the crap out of opposing guards with his length. Off the bench they have three promising freshman and Williams looks like a future star in the B1G.
So my summation would be the talent levels between the two teams aren’t that different, but Purdue just has a very good blend that allows them to be a good team on both ends of the floor.
What’s interesting about Iowa is many have speculated that we do have some talent, which sometimes looks pretty good when it’s going well. I think the issue for us is just that Bohannon and Garza have serious limitations on defense, and then you add Cook in there who I would consider below average on that end, we can be exposed at times. Put another way I think Iowa has some talent, but its not necessarily the right “mix” of talent.
I doubted Purdue all year but they really do have a nice mix. Tough to defend with Edwards one of the best scorers in the country surrounded by a shooter like Cline. Then you have a 7 footer who moves well setting screens. The other two starters are good defenders and Eastern pressures the crap out of opposing guards with his length. Off the bench they have three promising freshman and Williams looks like a future star in the B1G.
So my summation would be the talent levels between the two teams aren’t that different, but Purdue just has a very good blend that allows them to be a good team on both ends of the floor.
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Good point on first options. If Fran got Xavier Simpson or someone like him, the stars wouldn't look much different but the results sure would.
I also think Cook spent his entire off season trying to turn his weaknesses into strengths instead of focusing on making his strengths even better and maybe his weaknesses a little less bad. When the season came around, he tried to showcase his weaknesses instead of showcasing his strengths. That would be like if Bohannon quit shooting 3s and spent the whole season trying to show he could penetrate. I think that miscalculation by Cook and Fran hurt the team a bit.
tksirius
HN's Love Doctor
Just to show how each has fared at their respective school:
Painter:
14 seasons at Purdue
Overall: 321-158 (.670) ----- removing first 2 seasons= 290-127 (.695)
B1G: 158-92 (.632) ----- removing first 2 seasons= 146-72 (.669)
11 NCAA appearances, 4 sweet sixteens, 1 elite 8 right now.
3 seasons prior to Painter: (Keady)
Overall: 19-11, 17-14, 7-21 (43-46) (.483)
B1G: 10-6, 7-9, 3-13 (20-28) (.416)
-------------------------
Fran:
9 seasons at Iowa
Overall: 174-132 (.569) ----- removing first 2 seasons= 145-95 (.604)
B1G: 79-86 (.488) ----- removing first 2 seasons: 67-62 (.519)
4 NCAA appearances
3 seasons prior to Fran: (Lickliter)
Overall: 13-19, 15-16, 10-22 (38-57) (.400)
B1G: 6-12, 5-13, 4-14 (15-39) (.278)
Painter:
14 seasons at Purdue
Overall: 321-158 (.670) ----- removing first 2 seasons= 290-127 (.695)
B1G: 158-92 (.632) ----- removing first 2 seasons= 146-72 (.669)
11 NCAA appearances, 4 sweet sixteens, 1 elite 8 right now.
3 seasons prior to Painter: (Keady)
Overall: 19-11, 17-14, 7-21 (43-46) (.483)
B1G: 10-6, 7-9, 3-13 (20-28) (.416)
-------------------------
Fran:
9 seasons at Iowa
Overall: 174-132 (.569) ----- removing first 2 seasons= 145-95 (.604)
B1G: 79-86 (.488) ----- removing first 2 seasons: 67-62 (.519)
4 NCAA appearances
3 seasons prior to Fran: (Lickliter)
Overall: 13-19, 15-16, 10-22 (38-57) (.400)
B1G: 6-12, 5-13, 4-14 (15-39) (.278)
I think if Cook would of concentrated on rebounding and interior defense, like blocking out, he would of averaged a double double. His shooting percentage would of been higher, and he would be a lot more attractive for the NBA or overseas money.
Fryowa
Administrator
FirstDownHawkeyes
Well-Known Member
Painter ran into a rough patch around 8-9 year into his reign. Comparing his numbers to FM at 9 years is a more fair comparison. Man, what If FM could do for the next 5 years what Paint has done the last 5!
I agree. We would have been a better team too. I see the video of Megan doing that drill and it is no wonder she finishes so well at the rim. Then I think about Cook probably spending the whole off season shooting jumpers and struggling to finish in games and i wonder what it would have looked like had he spent more time working in the lane in the off season. Oh knows, but it's an interesting thought.
Robowe
Well-Known Member
Exactly. Painter in year 8 at Purdue was 16-18 (no tournament) and year 9 was 15-17 (no tournament). Then, he managed to turn it around (year 10 - 21-13 and NCAA Tournament and a 1st round loss to ... Cincinnati). There were many folks who wanted him gone in that stretch but the AD stuck with him.
Let's see what happens with Fran going forward.
Not to degrade the article in any way, but it really doesn't really have much relevance. What the article tells you is that there are no 5 star players on either team, no one-and-doners, and the 3 and 4 stars just tell you that these guys have potential. Usually from year to year, beyond the first 10 kids in a recruiting class it is a crap shoot as to how they develop, and this is true at any stage. If the prognosticators were so good wouldn't they be able to evaluate the NBA draft classes much better, especially when the fish bowl is so much smaller? But it is the same way, beyond the first 3-5 picks there are busts, there are hall of famers and everywhere in between. So how can you evaluate a bunch of high school kids that aren't elite? Its just a guess.
What I see as the difference between Purdue and Iowa is that Purdue was able to do a little better job on assembling complimentary talent. Edwards is both quick and can shoot, a deadly combination. He is a volume scorer but he knows his role in that he has to shoot a lot in order to free everyone else up. He can get in the paint and shoot threes. When Edwards is being focused on, Cline can shoot. He can spot up or shoot off the dribble. Not terribly athletic but he is a great compliment to Edwards because you cant cheat off either one. In their 3 guard lineup, Eastern is their lockdown defender and will always take the other teams best guard option. He doesn't shoot many threes, but he can drive, has a midrange game, and is incredibly versatile in any lineup. Haarms gives them rim protection and some interior offense to make the other teams honest and not play small. Eifert and Williams give them different looks at the 4 and are solid players. The unit puts a lot of pressure on teams because of their complete and complimentary talents. You can play them any way you want and they have a way of countering that. Play zone, they will shoot it and shoot it well. Man them up and Edwards will go to the rim and eat you alive.
Us? We sorely lack perimeter quickness and thus ball pressure on our guards shuts our offense down to a halt because we cant get to the rim. And defensively, we dont have a rim protector. A quick point guard that can penetrate and defend would give us a ton of versatility that we dont have right now. We all know this.
Lets see how this looks next year, because if Joe T can provide some quickness, toughness and defensive skills and Nunge can give us a stretch 5 look, and Cook comes back, we will be a much more complete team.
What I see as the difference between Purdue and Iowa is that Purdue was able to do a little better job on assembling complimentary talent. Edwards is both quick and can shoot, a deadly combination. He is a volume scorer but he knows his role in that he has to shoot a lot in order to free everyone else up. He can get in the paint and shoot threes. When Edwards is being focused on, Cline can shoot. He can spot up or shoot off the dribble. Not terribly athletic but he is a great compliment to Edwards because you cant cheat off either one. In their 3 guard lineup, Eastern is their lockdown defender and will always take the other teams best guard option. He doesn't shoot many threes, but he can drive, has a midrange game, and is incredibly versatile in any lineup. Haarms gives them rim protection and some interior offense to make the other teams honest and not play small. Eifert and Williams give them different looks at the 4 and are solid players. The unit puts a lot of pressure on teams because of their complete and complimentary talents. You can play them any way you want and they have a way of countering that. Play zone, they will shoot it and shoot it well. Man them up and Edwards will go to the rim and eat you alive.
Us? We sorely lack perimeter quickness and thus ball pressure on our guards shuts our offense down to a halt because we cant get to the rim. And defensively, we dont have a rim protector. A quick point guard that can penetrate and defend would give us a ton of versatility that we dont have right now. We all know this.
Lets see how this looks next year, because if Joe T can provide some quickness, toughness and defensive skills and Nunge can give us a stretch 5 look, and Cook comes back, we will be a much more complete team.
lightning1
Well-Known Member
The difference is coaching and more specifically, defensive coaching.
Robowe
Well-Known Member
What makes you think that Cook (or any player) just works on one aspect of their game in the off season? Just because he shot more jumpers (supposedly), doesn't mean he didn't spend as much time working in the lane as he had been.
Another example, since JBo is good at shooting from the outside, should he work exclusively on shots inside the lane (runners, tear drops, up and unders) and not shoot outside at all? Or, should he work on ways to get more outside shot opportunities so he can get more outside shots during the games? Interesting question?
hawkinarkansas
Well-Known Member
From a development standpoint, how many players has FM had in 9 years that have improved significantly? I'm still bitter over the last 6 weeks of the season, so I'm probably missing a player or two. Uthoff comes to mind, but I'm empty on other names
tksirius
HN's Love Doctor
Here ya go:
Anyone know where one can find non-con strength of schedule?
Painter:
First 9 seasons at Purdue
Overall: 191-112 (.630) ----- removing first 2 seasons= 160-96 (.625)
B1G: 89-69 (.563) ----- removing first 2 seasons= 77-49 (.611)
6 NCAA appearances, 2 sweet sixteens
3 seasons prior to Painter: (Keady)
Overall: 19-11, 17-14, 7-21 (43-46) (.483)
B1G: 10-6, 7-9, 3-13 (20-28) (.416)
-------------------------
Fran:
9 seasons at Iowa
Overall: 174-132 (.569) ----- removing first 2 seasons= 145-95 (.604)
B1G: 79-86 (.488) ----- removing first 2 seasons: 67-62 (.519)
4 NCAA appearances
3 seasons prior to Fran: (Lickliter)
Overall: 13-19, 15-16, 10-22 (38-57) (.400)
B1G: 6-12, 5-13, 4-14 (15-39) (.278)
