Raymon officially gone

[JHHawk]

As it stands right now we have to find a decent rotation out of this group next year:

Alvis,Bigach,Davis,Gaglione,Hardy,Trinca-Pasat,McMinn,Spears,Cooper,Johnson.

That is ten guys...we have to be able to bulk them up some more and get them coached up enough to be respectable,because the offense could be very good again.

 

[urohawk]

As it stands right now we have to find a decent rotation out of this group next year:

Alvis,Bigach,Davis,Gaglione,Hardy,Trinca-Pasat,McMinn,Spears,Cooper,Johnson.

That is ten guys...we have to be able to bulk them up some more and get them coached up enough to be respectable,because the offense could be very good again.

That pretty much sums it up for next year. Given that 5 of those guys are not seeing any meaningful action despite injuries and poor play that is a real problem. Another will be a true freshman. Gaglione is way to small to be an impact player at DT. That leaves Bigach, Davis and Alvis. Davis appears to be constantly have nagging injuries impacting his play that he will have to shake. Alvis has some potential but needs to add strength and Bigach is undersized and not athletic like Mitch King.

 

[smoot27]

Most of those guys we landed late in the process ... and only after high-school guys who were higher on our board were no longer viable options.

Simply not true, you're talking out of your rear again:

Heiar was a December commit - already had Walsh and Blythe signed, we offered early and he was targeted by many schools including Mich. St

Guillory was a December commit - committed 3 rb's after including Robinson and Hampton

Gattas was a December commit - committed 5 linebackers afterwards including Hunter

Yanda was a November commit - committed Dace, Doering and Eubanks afterwards

Belleus was a December commit - committed 2 db's after including Godfrey

Chandler was a December commit - our 5th commit in a class of 22

Not one of these guys fits your description of a late fallback type. Banks may be the only one that qualifies for this status.

 

[homerHAWKeye777]

That pretty much sums it up for next year. Given that 5 of those guys are not seeing any meaningful action despite injuries and poor play that is a real problem. Another will be a true freshman. Gaglione is way to small to be an impact player at DT. That leaves Bigach, Davis and Alvis. Davis appears to be constantly have nagging injuries impacting his play that he will have to shake. Alvis has some potential but needs to add strength and Bigach is undersized and not athletic like Mitch King.

I definitely agree that the 2012 year will, yet again, be a bit of a transition year for the D. However, there is also a long list of Iowa D-linemen who have nearly come out of nowhere to become really significant contributers. To be specific, here's a list:

- Babs (SO) in '02
- Roth (SO) in '02
- Luebke (JR) in '03
- King (FR) in '05
- Kroul (FR) in '05
- Mattison (FR) in '05
- Iwebema (FR) in '05
- Ewen (SO) in '06
- Clayborn (FR) in '07
- Ballard (FR) in '07
- Geary (SO) in '07
- Klug (SO) in '08
- Binns (FR) in '08
- Daniels (JR) in '10
- Alvis (SO) in '11
- Bigach (JR) in '11
- Nardo (SR) in '11

Why believe that we won't see guys continue to emerge in '12?

 

[hawkfarmer]

the only guy not productive on his list was guillory - all the rest were stars or at least contributed on-field. haeir injured in the car accident doesn't count yet.

Really, Belleus was a star (hardly played) Gattas was a special teamer at best, why couldn't a freshman do that who was likely to actually provide something later in their careers/

The point of a JUCO is to get one that plays immediately. Not many of those listed did. Chandler waited a year (which was fine) as did Banks.

Also JUCO is not ideal in a QB because you'd like more than 1 year out of them.

The point is that they have to find somebody that can step in and play immediately which hardly any of those examples did, and is not tremendously likely this year.

 

[smoot27]

I definitely agree that the 2012 year will, yet again, be a bit of a transition year for the D. However, there is also a long list of Iowa D-linemen who have nearly come out of nowhere to become really significant contributers. To be specific, here's a list:

- Babs (SO) in '02
- Roth (SO) in '02
- Luebke (JR) in '03
- King (FR) in '05
- Kroul (FR) in '05
- Mattison (FR) in '05
- Iwebema (FR) in '05
- Ewen (SO) in '06
- Clayborn (FR) in '07
- Ballard (FR) in '07
- Geary (SO) in '07
- Klug (SO) in '08
- Binns (FR) in '08
- Daniels (JR) in '10
- Alvis (SO) in '11
- Bigach (JR) in '11
- Nardo (SR) in '11

Why believe that we won't see guys continue to emerge in '12?

Iwebema, Clayborn, Ballard, Mattison, Roth were all big recruits and not surprising they contributed early

I wouldn't want to rely on Alvis, Ewen, Bigach, Geary as being key starters

Some veteran leadership would be good rather than a line with one marginal player in Alvis and a bunch of green players

 

[homerHAWKeye777]

Simply not true, you're talking out of your rear again:

Heiar was a December commit - already had Walsh and Blythe signed, we offered early and he was targeted by many schools including Mich. St

Guillory was a December commit - committed 3 rb's after including Robinson and Hampton

Gattas was a December commit - committed 5 linebackers afterwards including Hunter

Yanda was a November commit - committed Dace, Doering and Eubanks afterwards

Belleus was a December commit - committed 2 db's after including Godfrey

Chandler was a December commit - our 5th commit in a class of 22

Not one of these guys fits your description of a late fallback type. Banks may be the only one that qualifies for this status.

Huh? First off, I said most ... not all. Secondly, for the most part ... your trend PROVES my point. Ask yourself ... why would the coaches have so many verbals at the position groups in question? It's because they were significant "need areas" ... and, let me tell you, few folks track Iowa recruiting as closely as I do ... and in many of the cases you mention, Iowa actually whiffed on guys who were higher on their board ... so they then simply moved down their board. In some cases ... those guys have happened to be JUCO guys.

Ferentz himself has explicitly stated that that is EXACTLY what happened when they landed Banks (although he was a transfer IIRC).

 

[urohawk]

"Why believe that we won't see guys continue to emerge in '12?"

I guess my answer would have two parts. In most cases I would say that there is a difference between playing time and emerging as an impact player. In the years you cited most of those guys may have made small contributions but I would hardly say any of them had good years. For instance, Kroul in 2005 at most should have been a spot player but due to lack of depth was forced to play. He developed into a very good player but it took 3 years.

Second, as I have mentioned previously, guys like Roth, Babs, Iwebema, Ballard and Clayborn had the bodies and talent to be great players. They just lacked the experience when they started having to play and thus there play wasn't great early in their careers. The difference is next year we don't have guys like that on the roster or committed.

The only exception I see to the above on the players you named would be Tyler Leubke in 2003 and Mike Daniels in 2010. Both came out of nowhere and had a good year. Of course, both had the advantage of playing alongside three NFL caliber players which nobody on next years team will have.

 

[hawkfarmer]

"Why believe that we won't see guys continue to emerge in '12?"

I guess my answer would have two parts. In most cases I would say that there is a difference between playing time and emerging as an impact player. In the years you cited most of those guys may have made small contributions but I would hardly say any of them had good years. For instance, Kroul in 2005 at most should have been a spot player but due to lack of depth was forced to play. He developed into a very good player but it took 3 years.

Second, as I have mentioned previously, guys like Roth, Babs, Iwebema, Ballard and Clayborn had the bodies and talent to be great players. They just lacked the experience when they started having to play and thus there play wasn't great early in their careers. The difference is next year we don't have guys like that on the roster or committed.

The only exception I see to the above on the players you named would be Tyler Leubke in 2003. He came out of nowhere and had a good year. Of course, he had the advantage of playing alongside three NFL caliber players which nobody on next years team will have.

So you think a guy that was a good JUCO is just going to walk in and have more success in a system they don't know than guys that had been in the system at least a year and have been working with the coaches?

 

[urohawk]

So you think a guy that was a good JUCO is just going to walk in and have more success in a system they don't know than guys that had been in the system at least a year and have been working with the coaches?

No, which is why I think dline will be extremely bad next year unless we have some miracles happen.

 

[hawkfarmer]

No, which is why I think dline will be extremely bad next year unless we have some miracles happen.

Oh, well then what are we arguing about?

 

[homerHAWKeye777]

Iwebema, Clayborn, Ballard, Mattison, Roth were all big recruits and not surprising they contributed early

I wouldn't want to rely on Alvis, Ewen, Bigach, Geary as being key starters

Some veteran leadership would be good rather than a line with one marginal player in Alvis and a bunch of green players

What are you talking about? Alvis has been pretty solid at DE. Mattison wasn't that highly touted ... and Roth was a 3 or 4 star guy depending on the recruiting service.

Iwebema highly touted! LOL! Who's now talking out of their rear? Come on now!

While I certainly wouldn't cry if Iowa were to regularly land nothing but 4 and 5 star guys on the DL ... I also know that it ain't gonna happen. And it's not due to lack of trying either ... the Hawk coaches recruit highly touted guys hard. We just don't always land 'em.

However, I equally wouldn't marginalize the track record that our coaches have for evaluating players in the recruiting game ... and, of course, they also have a great track record when it comes to "coachin' 'em up" too!

Just as many folks, such as yourself, have been seemingly disparaging guys like Alvis and Bigach ... the same type of individuals were saying the SAME EXACT thing about King and Kroul. The last time I checked, King finished up his career at Iowa as a unanimous all-Big 10 D-lineman!

Holy crap! Our DL has been dinged up ... they still put up the performance like they did against Northwestern (which was a great effort) ... and yet fans are all "doom and gloom" about the future of the unit. Good lord ... I have yet to read one post from one of these gloom and doomers who has broken down things analytically and actually attempted to "diagnose" things. I'm sorry, but the devil is in the details folks. Too many folks are thinkin' with their emotions ... and a lot of unsubstantiated opinions are hitting these boards.

 

[imported_ankle23]

So you think a guy that was a good JUCO is just going to walk in and have more success in a system they don't know than guys that had been in the system at least a year and have been working with the coaches?

i think there are all kind of examples out there to support this notion.

the main reason, i think, you don't see a lot of coaches doing it, like Iowa, is that you don't build depth or a program with short-term players.

 

[homerHAWKeye777]

urohawk's statement #1: For instance, Kroul in 2005 at most should have been a spot player but due to lack of depth was forced to play. He developed into a very good player but it took 3 years.

urohawk's statement #1: The difference is next year we don't have guys like that on the roster or committed.

RE: Statement #1: 100% false. During the spring of '05, when Kittrell and Eshareturi were still on the team ... and when Willcox was healthy, Kroul still established himself as a leading contender for a starting spot. Kroul wasn't "forced into it" as we approached the '05 season ... he was already squarely in the picture. It was KING who got pushed prematurely into action because of Willcox's shoulder.


RE: Statement #2: Carl Davis has been injured since the off-season ... and he had generated legit buzz prior to his injury (not just the stupid hype due to his size). Darian Cooper didn't get to camp until late ... and then he proceeded to get injured during fall camp too. All the same, when he was healthy, he was generating some positive buzz. Lastly, at least out of high school, McMinn was a pretty highly regarded rush-end prospect. Similarly, Hardy was considered one of the top, if not THE top recruiting prospect in Wisconsin that year. Thus, I fail to see why you're suggested that the talent we have on the DL is chopped liver.

If you're trying to plead a campaign on these boards to help attract uber-touted D-linemen to Iowa. I'm all on board. However, I don't think that we have to talk smack about our own players to achieve such an end.

 

[smoot27]

What are you talking about? Alvis has been pretty solid at DE. Mattison wasn't that highly touted ... and Roth was a 3 or 4 star guy depending on the recruiting service.

Mattison wasn't highly recruited? Yeah he just appeared in the high school Army AA game.

Roth was a 3 or 4* guy? Tom Lemming said Roth was a shoe-in for the NFL upon our recruitment. He was a consensus HS AA. He was named to the ESPN and Reebok first all-America teams as a senior.

Alvis has been solid at DE? So who on our d-line is responsible for:
a) Giving Shontrelle Johnson his first 100 yd game on 6 ypc?
b) Getting ripped apart by both PSU rb's?
c) Getting lit up by Dontey Gay?
d) Getting torn apart by Pitt's Graham

Our defensive line is garbage, yet you seem to think every starter is quality?

 

[urohawk]

RE: Statement #1: 100% false. During the spring of '05, when Kittrell and Eshareturi were still on the team ... and when Willcox was healthy, Kroul still established himself as a leading contender for a starting spot. Kroul wasn't "forced into it" as we approached the '05 season ... he was already squarely in the picture. It was KING who got pushed prematurely into action because of Willcox's shoulder.


RE: Statement #2: Carl Davis has been injured since the off-season ... and he had generated legit buzz prior to his injury (not just the stupid hype due to his size). Darian Cooper didn't get to camp until late ... and then he proceeded to get injured during fall camp too. All the same, when he was healthy, he was generating some positive buzz. Lastly, at least out of high school, McMinn was a pretty highly regarded rush-end prospect. Similarly, Hardy was considered one of the top, if not THE top recruiting prospect in Wisconsin that year. Thus, I fail to see why you're suggested that the talent we have on the DL is chopped liver.

If you're trying to plead a campaign on these boards to help attract uber-touted D-linemen to Iowa. I'm all on board. However, I don't think that we have to talk smack about our own players to achieve such an end.

If you think I am 100% false that Kroul was forced to play in 2005 because of lack of talent and depth...well I guess I would have to say you are 100% false.

As far as our current guys. I am not saying none of them can become good... I really don't know. All I know is what I have seen on the field. Carl Davis can't stay healthy. Hardy isn't playing despite multiple injuries and lack of production from other players (very bad sign). McCinn unless he puts on 40 pounds in the offseason is 2 years away from playing. I have hope for Cooper but he is not a defensive end which is our biggest weakness. Melvin Spears may have some hope but I really don't know and he wasn't a DE in HS so one would think he would need more time to develop into the position.

So yes, I am in the position of pleading for a very talented defensive end to come to Iowa because you would almost certainly play right away and may work into a starting spot.

 

[SheagleHawk]

Mattison wasn't highly recruited? Yeah he just appeared in the high school Army AA game.

Roth was a 3 or 4* guy? Tom Lemming said Roth was a shoe-in for the NFL upon our recruitment. He was a consensus HS AA. He was named to the ESPN and Reebok first all-America teams as a senior.

Alvis has been solid at DE? So who on our d-line is responsible for:
a) Giving Shontrelle Johnson his first 100 yd game on 6 ypc?
b) Getting ripped apart by both PSU rb's?
c) Getting lit up by Dontey Gay?
d) Getting torn apart by Pitt's Graham

Our defensive line is garbage, yet you seem to think every starter is quality?

I wouldn't say our D line is garbage, but it ain't all rainbows and daffodils like Homer would like us to believe. The guys that Homer thinks have "emerged" are playing b/c the cupboard is bare; not b/c they are exceptionally talented and passing people on the depth chart.

 

[homes]

We need 2 of them minimum.

has anyone been following Rodney Coe? There was a lot of talk about him playing defense when he committed. They also need another run stopper in the middle. I think 2 JUCOs might be what they need.

 

[CAARHawk]

has anyone been following Rodney Coe? There was a lot of talk about him playing defense when he committed. They also need another run stopper in the middle. I think 2 JUCOs might be what they need.

Can Coker redshirt thread alert.

 

[imported_ankle23]

has anyone been following Rodney Coe? There was a lot of talk about him playing defense when he committed. They also need another run stopper in the middle. I think 2 JUCOs might be what they need.

rodney coe was playing RB at the start of the season. we need a DL whose position is DL, has been DL and is going to be DL for the rest of his career - not a project.

projects are fine, but not for a JUCO.