QB's In The NFL.

[MelroseHawkins]

I've always been a Pittsburgh Steelers fan since a kid so have been following their training camp QB developments. Nobody in their QB unit is really sticking out, and it is reported who has looked the best so far is Mason Rudolph, which is a bit disconcerting.

It's obvious and well known the QB position in the NFL is quite hard to find and roster a top talent and if a team does, has quite an advantage to make a run. There is only 1 starting position on a team. There always only seem to be a few QB's in the league that float to the top, who are viewed as the top of the list. There are many now who throw 300 yd passing games, but leading a team and having post season success is a different story. The passing game is just a NFL evolution at this time.

What I have always found odd or baffling is how a stud college QB, who some have even won the Heisman, don't automatically have success in the NFL, even a bit of success. It's just weird when one thinks about it. How does a player fall off that much or how is it their game doesn't translate to the NFL enough. There are a lot of successful college QB's who just couldn't make it work in the NFL, and they couldn't even stick on a roster. Some aren't even serviceable in the NFL. It's just weird.

 

[KCHawkeye]

I've always been a Pittsburgh Steelers fan since a kid so have been following their training camp QB developments. Nobody in their QB unit is really sticking out, and it is reported who has looked the best so far is Mason Rudolph, which is a bit disconcerting.

It's obvious and well known the QB position in the NFL is quite hard to find and roster a top talent and if a team does, has quite an advantage to make a run. There is only 1 starting position on a team. There always only seem to be a few QB's in the league that float to the top, who are viewed as the top of the list. There are many now who throw 300 yd passing games, but leading a team and having post season success is a different story. The passing game is just a NFL evolution at this time.

What I have always found odd or baffling is how a stud college QB, who some have even won the Heisman, don't automatically have success in the NFL, even a bit of success. It's just weird when one thinks about it. How does a player fall off that much or how is it their game doesn't translate to the NFL enough. There are a lot of successful college QB's who just couldn't make it work in the NFL, and they couldn't even stick on a roster. Some aren't even serviceable in the NFL. It's just weird.

As far as QBs making it in the pros would be that the better the QB will tend to be picked in the draft higher and go to crappier teams. Especially teams that are mismanaged. 'Dunno for sure, though.

 

[guffus]

It is just a reflection how much a QB's success relies on the people and system around him.

It happens in college too if QB's stick around too long. Tanner Morgan was 2nd Team All Big Ten when he had NFL talent at WR. Once those WR's moved on, Tanner Morgan disappeared from the All Big Ten QB discussion.

 

[MelroseHawkins]

It is just a reflection how much a QB's success relies on the people and system around him.

It happens in college too if QB's stick around too long. Tanner Morgan was 2nd Team All Big Ten when he had NFL talent at WR. Once those WR's moved on, Tanner Morgan disappeared from the All Big Ten QB discussion.

I always thought it was crappy luck that Chuck Long was drafted by the Lions. It was just a bad situation.

It's just weird how a guy who won the Heisman turns out to be gawd awful in the NFL. It's funny that way. Like the Tim Tebow's of the world.

 

[CP87]

It is just a reflection how much a QB's success relies on the people and system around him.

It happens in college too if QB's stick around too long. Tanner Morgan was 2nd Team All Big Ten when he had NFL talent at WR. Once those WR's moved on, Tanner Morgan disappeared from the All Big Ten QB discussion.

I think that is the strongest argument for Brady as the best of all time. He won year after year, whether he was throwing to Troy Brown or to Randy Moss. Of course, the defense had a lot to do with that, but Brady always had a knack for making plays when it mattered, and he rarely put his team in bad positions (as someone like Favre was known to do).

 

[MelroseHawkins]

I think that is the strongest argument for Brady as the best of all time. He won year after year, whether he was throwing to Troy Brown or to Randy Moss. Of course, the defense had a lot to do with that, but Brady always had a knack for making plays when it mattered, and he rarely put his team in bad positions (as someone like Favre was known to do).

He was in a good system for all those years. But, he also did it one year later in TB away from Belichick. He's a good one.

How many SB's would Dan Marino have won or played in if he'd been in another organization?

 

[CP87]

He was in a good system for all those years. But, he also did it one year later in TB away from Belichick. He's a good one.

How many SB's would Dan Marino have won or played in if he'd been in another organization?

Is Aaron Rogers the modern-day Marino? Supremely talented, but ultimately a bit of a dick who not everyone gets behind? He did win his 1 super bowl, I guess.

 

[MelroseHawkins]

Is Aaron Rogers the modern-day Marino? Supremely talented, but ultimately a bit of a dick who not everyone gets behind? He did win his 1 super bowl, I guess.

Was Dan Marina a D? Don't remember that.

 

[Gander Hawk]

Was Dan Marina a D? Don't remember that.

I'd heard that he was a d with the media.

 

[HawkGold]

Vlasic was better suited for NFL. Long didn't have the arm gun.

 

[haydensly]

Especially today, the games are very different and what makes a good college QB is very different from what makes a good NFL QB. There are some exceptions (Iowa plays a very NFL-type offense) but most teams don't ask their QBs to do the things they'd be expected to do in the NFL.

That means that pro scouts have to project what a QB can do at the next level. Probably makes it a lot harder. Also, the speed of the NFL is much faster, obviously. Windows are tighter. Some guys can make the transition and step up better than others.

 

[okeefe4prez]

How does a player fall off that much or how is it their game doesn't translate to the NFL enough. There are a lot of successful college QB's who just couldn't make it work in the NFL, and they couldn't even stick on a roster. Some aren't even serviceable in the NFL. It's just weird.

Many reasons:

1) Passing clock is shorter in the NFL because the pass rushers are so fast
2) NFL linemen and LBs play way longer than the guys in college, putting more emphasis on release time and angle
3) College DBs suck
4) Window goes from relatively huge in college to barely bigger than the size of the ball in the NFL
5) Guys get drafted by teams that have shitty o-lines
6) NFL defenses are way better at scheme and disguising looks than college defenses

There are plenty of guys in college who will have a decent group of skill players around them and they'll look all world. Take Johnny Football or Cardale Jones. Johnny Football was able to evade the pass rush and then oh by the way he had Mike Evans carrying a double on every play, which meant everyone else was in single coverage. Evans was good enough to beat a double and so good that if the ball was within 8 yards of him at release he was coming down with it at the high point. At the NFL level Johnny Football could never hope to evade pass rushers. He also did not have such a massive mismatch of talent between his WR and DBs.

Cardale was the same way. He had Michael Thomas (who was almost as good as Mike Evans) and could hand the ball off to Zeke. He had the size to run over collegiate defenders and the speed to outrun all of them except the DBs. But the NFL is full of guys in the front seven who were equal or bigger than Cardale and every bit as fast.

Most of the time on these stud college teams the QB is a product of the studs around him and when you give him relatively equal talent on the outside combined with less time to throw the results are disastrous.

 

[MelroseHawkins]

Especially today, the games are very different and what makes a good college QB is very different from what makes a good NFL QB. There are some exceptions (Iowa plays a very NFL-type offense) but most teams don't ask their QBs to do the things they'd be expected to do in the NFL.

That means that pro scouts have to project what a QB can do at the next level. Probably makes it a lot harder. Also, the speed of the NFL is much faster, obviously. Windows are tighter. Some guys can make the transition and step up better than others.

Yea, but it's that way for everybody who goes up. Speed is faster at every position. Someone has to be a QB in the NFL. One would presume many of the top college QB's who play the toughest competition in college would have a leg up.

You are stating generally why some guys struggle at that position. We know they do. I'm saying its odd that some of those guys who dominated in college so much, struggle so bad when up there. Many of the reasons why you point out.

 

[MelroseHawkins]

Many reasons:

1) Passing clock is shorter in the NFL because the pass rushers are so fast
2) NFL linemen and LBs play way longer than the guys in college, putting more emphasis on release time and angle
3) College DBs suck
4) Window goes from relatively huge in college to barely bigger than the size of the ball in the NFL
5) Guys get drafted by teams that have shitty o-lines
6) NFL defenses are way better at scheme and disguising looks than college defenses

There are plenty of guys in college who will have a decent group of skill players around them and they'll look all world. Take Johnny Football or Cardale Jones. Johnny Football was able to evade the pass rush and then oh by the way he had Mike Evans carrying a double on every play, which meant everyone else was in single coverage. Evans was good enough to beat a double and so good that if the ball was within 8 yards of him at release he was coming down with it at the high point. At the NFL level Johnny Football could never hope to evade pass rushers. He also did not have such a massive mismatch of talent between his WR and DBs.

Cardale was the same way. He had Michael Thomas (who was almost as good as Mike Evans) and could hand the ball off to Zeke. He had the size to run over collegiate defenders and the speed to outrun all of them except the DBs. But the NFL is full of guys in the front seven who were equal or bigger than Cardale and every bit as fast.

Most of the time on these stud college teams the QB is a product of the studs around him and when you give him relatively equal talent on the outside combined with less time to throw the results are disastrous.

Great points. I especially like #3 as that is huge. I always said lock down defenders (cornerbacks) are prob one of the toughest positions to recruit in college. Coaches can coach and tweak technique to a point, but the guy has to have the correct size for NFL, quickness and speed, shifting hips correctly and making reads fast. Those are all hard to come by in one guy and the NFL gets the very best of a CB's attributes. With those players covering so well along with your points in #1 and #2, the window on a play is cut down drastically.

The ability of the QB to read and react or trust themselves to throw to windows is cut down substantially. This will exploit an average or bad QB fast.

Referencing the last bold line. I always wondered and stated to some if this is what Jake Christensen's downfall was when coming to Iowa. He came in as a 5* or a high 4, I believe. He was the one who made me think of this. Was his success in high school from his supporting cast of players? He struggled at Iowa when the game sped up. Does this play into some of Petras's difficulties. The guy broke Goff's HS records in CA for kripes sake. Was that him or his supporting cast. Is he having a hard time with that speed now? Answer is probably yes.

And again, as I said in a post this past week, the best thing that Kurt Warner could have experienced was playing in the Arena League for years. This obviously helped him to react fast and hit tight windows. I think this helped him to become what he was in the NFL more than any other thing.

 

[Seth53]

I always thought it was crappy luck that Chuck Long was drafted by the Lions. It was just a bad situation.

It's just weird how a guy who won the Heisman turns out to be gawd awful in the NFL. It's funny that way. Like the Tim Tebow's of the world.

Yup.

Lions hired Mouse Davis a year or two into CL's tenure and they went to that gimmicky run and shoot...not CL's style. Bad team, bad coaching, bad decisions.