Penn State Gets Hammer: Worse than Death Penalty?

[TChawk]

I never said they can't punish them. I said they don't have the authority in their rules to punish them and I said that the NCAA has no business trying to get involved in this matter they are ill-equipped to handle. Which still stands.

As I said before the NCAA would try to punish PSU by bending and twisting what words they could in their consitution to punish PSU. But make no mistake about it, they found a way to punish PSU not because this was within the purview, the punished PSU because they felt they had to because of public pressure and they were scared of not doing anything. Why do you think that PSU wasn't given the death penalty? Why do you think PSU agreed with all the sanctions. What I am sure happened was that NCAA got together with PSU and hammered out some kind of deal because PSU wants to fix their immage as well. The agreed to bowl bans and scholarship reductions. The money part was probably PSU's idea because they had already said they were going to start using football money to donate to charities.

As I said previously, people are mistaking the NCAA punishing PSU with actual rules that cover this situation in which to punish them.

In an article that came out today, an unnamed former chair of infractions committee who now is on appeals committee, stated that NCAA had no authority in its bylaws to handle this and that is basically why they turned over all power to Emmert to act on his own.

And that is where you were dead wrong and to be made to look like a fool. the NCAA had every right to hammer PSU on this and they did. TO think that they didn't is just absurd.

 

[olivecourt]

I never said they can't punish them. I said they don't have the authority in their rules to punish them and I said that the NCAA has no business trying to get involved in this matter they are ill-equipped to handle. Which still stands.

As I said before the NCAA would try to punish PSU by bending and twisting what words they could in their consitution to punish PSU. But make no mistake about it, they found a way to punish PSU not because this was within the purview, the punished PSU because they felt they had to because of public pressure and they were scared of not doing anything. Why do you think that PSU wasn't given the death penalty? Why do you think PSU agreed with all the sanctions. What I am sure happened was that NCAA got together with PSU and hammered out some kind of deal because PSU wants to fix their immage as well. The agreed to bowl bans and scholarship reductions. The money part was probably PSU's idea because they had already said they were going to start using football money to donate to charities.

As I said previously, people are mistaking the NCAA punishing PSU with actual rules that cover this situation in which to punish them.

In an article that came out today, an unnamed former chair of infractions committee who now is on appeals committee, stated that NCAA had no authority in its bylaws to handle this and that is basically why they turned over all power to Emmert to act on his own.

I'm sorry, but isn't this exactly how the process should work? What exactly are you complaining about?

The NCAA is composed of its member institutions. One of those institutions violated the group constitution, and so the association devised a penalty and the offending institution accepted it. This is so incredibly uncomplicated. It's funny to me how so many Penn State fans are suddenly so worried about jurisdiction and bylaws-- it's a pretty transparent attempt to cloud the issue and shirk responsibility.

Take a look at this document-- which Penn State explicitly accepts when they agree to participate in NCAA sports-- and tell me how far you can get before you see clear violations by Penn State. I make it to page 3.

http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools...misc_non_event/1112ncaa-compliance-manual.pdf

 

[DexterMorgan]

And that is where you were dead wrong and to be made to look like a fool. the NCAA had every right to hammer PSU on this and they did. TO think that they didn't is just absurd.

Many national radio and television personalities believe the NCAA overstepped their bounds here. I'd say it's certainly up for debate.

 

[DexterMorgan]

It's a lot shorter than the period of time that sandusky was raping boys, and shorter than the (at least) 14 years that the psu creeps allowed him to continue.

Which is why those people are in/going to prison. The NCAA punishment is only a portion of the pain PSU is going to feel.

 

[olivecourt]

Many national radio and television personalities believe the NCAA overstepped their bounds here. I'd say it's certainly up for debate.

Radio and TV talking heads are going to see two sides to every issue, even when it's as uncomplicated as this one. They have to have something to talk about. Plus many sportswriters despise the NCAA and will take any opportunity to bash it, even in the cases when it isn't warranted.

Again, just scroll through this-- there are rules on just about every page that Penn State violates.

http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools...misc_non_event/1112ncaa-compliance-manual.pdf

Just to get you started, here's one that took three seconds to find:

2.1.2 Scope of Responsibility. The institution’s responsibility for the conduct of its intercollegiate athletics program includes responsibility for the actions of its staf members and for the actions of any other individual or organization engaged in activities promoting the athletics interests of the institution.

 

[DexterMorgan]

Radio and TV talking heads are going to see two sides to every issue, even when it's as uncomplicated as this one. They have to have something to talk about. Plus many sportswriters despise the NCAA and will take any opportunity to bash it, even in the cases when it isn't warranted.

Again, just scroll through this-- there are rules on just about every page that Penn State violates.

http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools...misc_non_event/1112ncaa-compliance-manual.pdf

Just to get you started, here's one that took three seconds to find:

2.1.2 Scope of Responsibility. The institution’s responsibility for the conduct of its intercollegiate athletics program includes responsibility for the actions of its staf members and for the actions of any other individual or organization engaged in activities promoting the athletics interests of the institution.

I agree that the NCAA had the right and in my opinion had an obligation to do something. Just don't think it's as black and white as a lot of other people seem to think it is.

Jay Bilas for one, who I think is very bright, was against the NCAA action.

 

[JonDMiller]

Many national radio and television personalities believe the NCAA overstepped their bounds here. I'd say it's certainly up for debate.

I don't think there is any debate based upon one simple and important fact:

Penn State signed a decree of consent saying they accepted the punishments. If they felt the NCAA went too far, don't sign it, go through the COI process, appeals, etc.

End of story

 

[DexterMorgan]

I don't think there is any debate based upon one simple and important fact:

Penn State signed a decree of consent saying they accepted the punishments. If they felt the NCAA went too far, don't sign it, go through the COI process, appeals, etc.

End of story

Whether you think there is or there isn't, there is a debate going on, basically on every show I listened to yesterday.

 

[olivecourt]

I agree that the NCAA had the right and in my opinion had an obligation to do something. Just don't think it's as black and white as a lot of other people seem to think it is.

Jay Bilas for one, who I think is very bright, was against the NCAA action.

He is very bright, and in this case, he is very wrong.

Just because a lot of people are wrong doesn't mean that an issue isn't crystal clear. I would love to know if Jay Bilas or any of these other critics has read the NCAA manual, or even perused it. There really isn't any gray area there. And as Jon just posted, Penn State agreed to all of the penalties anyway-- so on whose behalf are they arguing? They are just airing old grievances about the NCAA-- many of which have merit, but none of which apply in this case.

 

[DexterMorgan]

I don't think there is any debate based upon one simple and important fact:

Penn State signed a decree of consent saying they accepted the punishments. If they felt the NCAA went too far, don't sign it, go through the COI process, appeals, etc.

End of story

I really don't agree with this. If the NCAA said "accept these penalties or we'll push for the death penalty" I think that's some incentive for PSU to agree to the terms. They could still feel the NCAA overstepped their bounds but their feet are to the fire.

 

[olivecourt]

Whether you think there is or there isn't, there is a debate going on, basically on every show I listened to yesterday.

There is a debate about evolution, too. That doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

Sports radio will debate anything. That's their job. Don't mistake their made-up debates for actual ambiguity in the issue itself.

 

[Scorpio79]

I really don't agree with this. If the NCAA said "accept these penalties or we'll push for the death penalty" I think that's some incentive for PSU to agree to the terms. They could still feel the NCAA overstepped their bounds but their feet are to the fire.

Do you have any reason to believe this sort of coercion took place?

 

[DexterMorgan]

He is very bright, and in this case, he is very wrong.

Just because a lot of people are wrong doesn't mean that an issue isn't crystal clear. I would love to know if Jay Bilas or any of these other critics has read the NCAA manual, or even perused it. There really isn't any gray area there. And as Jon just posted, Penn State agreed to all of the penalties anyway-- so on whose behalf are they arguing? They are just airing old grievances about the NCAA-- many of which have merit, but none of which apply in this case.

I would assume he has read the manual, but you could be right, maybe he is airing old grievances.

 

[DexterMorgan]

Do you have any reason to believe this sort of coercion took place?

I don't, complete "what if" scenario.

 

[DexterMorgan]

There is a debate about evolution, too. That doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

Sports radio will debate anything. That's their job. Don't mistake their made-up debates for actual ambiguity in the issue itself.

Good point.

 

[tm3308]

I don't think there is any debate based upon one simple and important fact:

Penn State signed a decree of consent saying they accepted the punishments. If they felt the NCAA went too far, don't sign it, go through the COI process, appeals, etc.

End of story

I don't think that says a whole lot. What's Penn State going to do in that situation? Say "No, this is too harsh, you need to go easier on us."?

Yeah, THAT would go over well with the public. I think the higher-ups in State College are smart enough to know it's wiser to take harsh medicine now (even if they think it's coming from the wrong people or that it's too harsh), than to keep lobbing grenades on their own reputation. You don't act defiant when you're in PSU's position. We've already seen the consequences for that in this case.

 

[CAARHawk]

Spanier's response and others from the PSU community show how impossible it would have been for the board and new administration to wrestle control back from the football program. The new president said that football had operated under an entirely different set of rules and it didn't seem he felt he had the power to change the situation on his own.

So yes, I am sure there was some interaction between the NCAA and PSU leadership. Odds are they floated the potential death penalty idea as a way to give the board a warrant as to why they excepted the "unprecedented" penalties so quickly.

All of this will help the board readjust the priorities of the university.

 

[ssckelley]

A big reason why Penn State avoided the death penalty was because of them accepting this punishment. Otherwise Penn State would have had their football program suspended for multiple years. I also think Penn State firing Paterno right away, hiring Freeh to investigate, and taking down the statue aided Penn State from getting tougher penalties from the NCAA.

Penn State is not out of the woods yet, there is a lot more to come out on this. They might be done with the NCAA but there will be plenty of civil lawsuits to come.

 

[olivecourt]

tm, I know you've been through the fire on this one, and I'm not trying to call you out. But what is the argument on the NCAA not having a role in light of something like this, which is in Article 2 of the NCAA manual?

2.1.2 Scope of Responsibility. The institution’s responsibility for the conduct of its intercollegiate athletics program includes responsibility for the actions of its staf members and for the actions of any other individual or organization engaged in activities promoting the athletics interests of the institution.

Curious for your take on that.

 

[tm3308]

tm, I know you've been through the fire on this one, and I'm not trying to call you out. But what is the argument on the NCAA not having a role in light of something like this, which is in Article 2 of the NCAA manual?

2.1.2 Scope of Responsibility. The institution’s responsibility for the conduct of its intercollegiate athletics program includes responsibility for the actions of its staf members and for the actions of any other individual or organization engaged in activities promoting the athletics interests of the institution.

Curious for your take on that.

For me, it's more about knowing where to draw the line. When it comes to recruiting violations, it's pretty easy. And it's not hard to make the case for this to be an obvious "do something" situation. But where does the NCAA just let something slide? This is the first time I've ever heard of them getting involved in something like this. I can't deny I think PSU deserves to be punished, but I'm just not sure how the NCAA will go forward from this.