OT: Kittle PI in the Super Bowl

[kicker22]

Ah, always a guy that shows up to completely disregard the issue of officiating. Officiating can have a huge outcome in games decided by one or two possessions. I didn't even see anyone really complaining that they were one sided, it affected both teams in this game - just that it's so incredibly subjective, and that's a huge problem. It's never going away unless there's someway to automate it with AI using sensors and predetermined parameters and rule sets (not likely). As long as there are human officials, there will always be an element of human error and subjectivity.

Not disregarding the issue at all, but at the same time if SF doesn't forget what worked the first 50+ minutes then there might have been a different outcome.

My issue with officiating...it's way too complex and needs to be simplified in all sports. The rules are there in print. As they are defined we all agree that there could be multiple penalties on every single play. In Kittle's situation, the arm was extended and there was contact. Was there enough contact to warrant a penalty when compared to everything else is/isn't called? That's not for me to determine. If you're going to have a penalty in the rule book that is very rarely called or enforced then why have it. Rules committees spend so much time trying to define what is and what isn't a foul/penalty that it creates arguments like this where by written rule it may have been a penalty, but is so rarely called that it sparks outrage when called in comparison to what isn't called.

My opinion, if the rules aren't wrote or applied the way they and Kittle's catch is simply another reception then there isn't any controversy. IF offensive PI is called as often as defensive PI then I'm guessing the call on the field isn't as shocking. My honest opinion is that officiating started becoming a bigger issue when technology gave us the ability to view every play frame by frame in multiple angles which eliminated the "human error" part of officiating. So rather than make it more complex they need to simplify it.

 

[okeefe4prez]

It's never going away unless there's someway to automate it with AI using sensors and predetermined parameters and rule sets (not likely)

False start, delay of game, 12 men on the field, illegal motion, illegal formation and offside should all be called by AI. Those are easy ones to call with no judgment. NASCAR calls its pit stop officiating 100% with AI and a human review and it is totally fair and objective and most importantly, consistent.

 

[Fryowa]

SF reminds me of Iowa. Get conservative with a lead. No real confidence in qb.

It does make sense now that SF drafted Beathard and have kept him.

Would guess JG got a concussion just prior to missing the receiver over the top.

In my opinion it's strictly a Shanahan problem; he was the choke artist behind the Falcons collapse too.

Shanahan's a guy with a high football IQ and a coaching pedigree, but to me he'd better serve his team by finding an OC who fits to call plays. There are guys who can be a HC and OC at the same time, and there are those who can't. Shanahan is the latter. He's proven in big games he's terrible at managing the overall game (keeping leads, strategizing time of possession, end-of-game clock management), and his late game play calling is just plain absurd...I don't know how else to describe it. He runs plays that eat clock when he needs time, and calls plays that stop the clock when he needs to burn it. And this isn't just Fryowa's idiot opinion...smarter football coaches than any of us here have publicly called him out on it.

He needs to give up the play calling duties and be a manager of the team, which I think he can do. He has player support and more importantly support from John Lynch, and all of the physical pieces for a championship team are there. He's not worth a shit at trying to call plays and run the overall scheme at the same time.

 

[kicker22]

False start, delay of game, 12 men on the field, illegal motion, illegal formation and offside should all be called by AI. Those are easy ones to call with no judgment. NASCAR calls its pit stop officiating 100% with AI and a human review and it is totally fair and objective and most importantly, consistent.

I agree with this 100%. Not because the officials on the field can't get it done, but simply because it can be caught, and verified electronically in real time. They don't need to slow anything down, or go frame by frame to make a determination and it's blatant.

 

[Fryowa]

Ah, always a guy that shows up to completely disregard the issue of officiating. Officiating can have a huge outcome in games decided by one or two possessions. One call or one missed call can cause a series of events that give one team or another a distinct and unfair advantage.
I didn't even see people really complaining that they were one sided, it affected both teams in this game - just that it's so incredibly subjective, and that's a huge problem. It's never going away unless there's someway to automate it with AI using sensors and predetermined parameters and rule sets (not likely). As long as there are human officials, there will always be an element of human error and subjectivity.

Bad calls? Yes.

And I don't disagree with the effect on the game overall.

But Shanahan had the game locked away in his purse and gave it up because of either being stupid, or cocky. One of the two. If he runs the ball they bleed the end of the game out, but he just got dumb.

It isn't by coincidence that Shanahan is the main guy behind losing the two highest win probability post season games in history.

 

[Fryowa]

False start, delay of game, 12 men on the field, illegal motion, illegal formation and offside should all be called by AI. Those are easy ones to call with no judgment. NASCAR calls its pit stop officiating 100% with AI and a human review and it is totally fair and objective and most importantly, consistent.

Even if those aren't done by AI they should all be review-able and correctable. They get missed ALL the time and the replay booth should just hit a button and tell the refs to check it out and wave the play off. Those fouls would literally take 30 seconds to review.

 

[HawkGold]

SF reminds me of Iowa. Get conservative with a lead. No real confidence in qb.

It does make sense now that SF drafted Beathard and have kept him.

Would guess JG got a concussion just prior to missing the receiver over the to

In my opinion it's strictly a Shanahan problem; he was the choke artist behind the Falcons collapse too.

Shanahan's a guy with a high football IQ and a coaching pedigree, but to me he'd better serve his team by finding an OC who fits to call plays. There are guys who can be a HC and OC at the same time, and there are those who can't. Shanahan is the latter. He's proven in big games he's terrible at managing the overall game (keeping leads, strategizing time of possession, end-of-game clock management), and his late game play calling is just plain absurd...I don't know how else to describe it. He runs plays that eat clock when he needs time, and calls plays that stop the clock when he needs to burn it. And this isn't just Fryowa's idiot opinion...smarter football coaches than any of us here have publicly called him out on it.

He needs to give up the play calling duties and be a manager of the team, which I think he can do. He has player support and more importantly support from John Lynch, and all of the physical pieces for a championship team are there. He's not worth a shit at trying to call plays and run the offense at the same time.

All valid points. Kind of felt his qb lost confidence as the season wore on. Kind of like I believe I see with Iowa game managing qbs. KF does best with qbs willing to say.... Did you say something coach?

Was surprised Sherman was exposed so badly.

 

[okeefe4prez]

Even if those aren't done by AI they should all be review-able and correctable. They get missed ALL the time and the replay booth should just hit a button and tell the refs to check it out and wave the play off. Those fouls would literally take 30 seconds to review.

Iowa's defense basically doesn't cover guys who are illegally downfield, which is smart and good coaching. In one game, I think it was Wisconsin, they had a slot guy or TE get wide open and make a huge play but the guy was clearly covered on the outside and ineligible. I think that was the most pissed off I've ever seen Ferentz because there is no way to review it. The number of times they F up those "low hanging fruit" calls is crazy but it's because the refs have too much to watch for. I agree with you - even without AI, they should have a spot in the booth for each P5/NFL team to have a replay guy who can signal to an official sitting there with them to watch a particular play for those issues and maybe illegal man downfield. All the really easy calls. Just get those right. When that shit gets missed it is maddening.

 

[Ree4]

Iowa's defense basically doesn't cover guys who are illegally downfield, which is smart and good coaching. In one game, I think it was Wisconsin, they had a slot guy or TE get wide open and make a huge play but the guy was clearly covered on the outside and ineligible. I think that was the most pissed off I've ever seen Ferentz because there is no way to review it. The number of times they F up those "low hanging fruit" calls is crazy but it's because the refs have too much to watch for. I agree with you - even without AI, they should have a spot in the booth for each P5/NFL team to have a replay guy who can signal to an official sitting there with them to watch a particular play for those issues and maybe illegal man downfield. All the really easy calls. Just get those right. When that shit gets missed it is maddening.

Yep, you're right on the money. It was Nebraska though, I remember that like it was yesterday! Even got an unsportsmanlike conduct penalty on top of it.
I am somewhat surprised they dont put little sensors in the ball, and maybe start with a pylon or something and try to incorporate things like that somehow to make things a little less subjective.

 

[clownkilla]

Ok Shakira is fucking hot

 

[Fryowa]

Iowa's defense basically doesn't cover guys who are illegally downfield, which is smart and good coaching. In one game, I think it was Wisconsin, they had a slot guy or TE get wide open and make a huge play but the guy was clearly covered on the outside and ineligible. I think that was the most pissed off I've ever seen Ferentz because there is no way to review it. The number of times they F up those "low hanging fruit" calls is crazy but it's because the refs have too much to watch for. I agree with you - even without AI, they should have a spot in the booth for each P5/NFL team to have a replay guy who can signal to an official sitting there with them to watch a particular play for those issues and maybe illegal man downfield. All the really easy calls. Just get those right. When that shit gets missed it is maddening.

Yep, you're right on the money. It was Nebraska though, I remember that like it was yesterday! I am somewhat surprised they dont put little sensors in the ball, and maybe start with a pylon or something and try to incorporate things like that somehow to make things a little less subjective.

Could just be a sensor on the top of everyone's helmet. Would be easy to code in the different scenarios, and formation penalties, procedurals, false starts etc could also easily be detected and signal a replay guy to look at it. For example the code would use those sensors to identify any TEs, and using proximity to the other sensors on the field decide if the guy is likely covered up or not. If it is then a big red blip comes up on the screen, the replay official hits a button and tells the referee that there's a possible ineligible (or false start, 12 players, offsides, illegal motion, etc.). It wouldn't be deciding the penalty yes/no, it'd simply be alerting an official to it in milliseconds. The whole thing would take seconds and wouldn't disrupt game play because they'd either be dead balls or free plays.

If technology can track pitch vectors, bat speed, launch angle, launch velocity, and spin of a baseball in less than half a second, we can automate a huge chuck of football penalties.

 

[uihawk82]

False start, delay of game, 12 men on the field, illegal motion, illegal formation and offside should all be called by AI. Those are easy ones to call with no judgment. NASCAR calls its pit stop officiating 100% with AI and a human review and it is totally fair and objective and most importantly, consistent.

What I wish they could do in a quick manner during a game is have some sort of sensor in the middle of the ball on GPS or something that gives an accurate spot. The officials are pretty lame and inconsistent spotting the ball on crucial times like for first downs, going out of bounds, crossing the goal line.

Now when a player runs or catches the ball on a down and he is tackled after 5 yards and they give him an extra foot that is not a big deal because the offensive center is going to move the ball when he picks it up to get ready to snap it.

If in tennis they can spot where the ball hits the court going 130 mph then they should be able to landmark the goal lines and out of bounds lines in football and tell when the football crosses those lines in space in 3 dimensions.

Remember when they used to measure for first downs all the time and now hardly ever.

A sensor in the middle of the ball for first downs. Footballs made out of glow in the infrared materials, haha.

 

[Ree4]

Could just be a sensor on the top of everyone's helmet. Would be easy to code in the different scenarios, and formation penalties, procedurals, false starts etc could also easily be detected and signal a replay guy to look at it. For example the code would use those sensors to identify any TEs, and using proximity to the other sensors on the field decide if the guy is likely covered up or not. If it is then a big red blip comes up on the screen, the replay official hits a button and tells the referee that there's a possible ineligible (or false start, 12 players, offsides, illegal motion, etc.). It wouldn't be deciding the penalty yes/no, it'd simply be alerting an official to it in milliseconds. The whole thing would take seconds and wouldn't disrupt game play because they'd either be dead balls or free plays.

If technology can track pitch vectors, bat speed, launch angle, launch velocity, and spin of a baseball in less than half a second, we can automate a huge chuck of football penalties.

Right on the money. As much as the NFL makes, you'd think they could invest some $$ to see if this is something that's feasible. They could just be like FIFA was forever, where any controversy is good for the sport because it gets people talking, but shit even they implemented a review process to the last World Cup

 

[Ree4]

View attachment 6298

lol is this for real?

 

[Fryowa]

If in tennis they can spot where the ball hits the court going 130 mph then they should be able to landmark the goal lines and out of bounds lines in football and tell when the football crosses those lines in space in 3 dimensions.

The problem with football would be that even the best GPS available right now is down to about a foot, and even then it's such a low resolution that it'd jump all over the place within a huge range.

One could probably have a transmitter in each end of the ball and triangulate it with receivers in the stadium, but what happens when the ball is covered up, or blocked by bodies, pads, etc?

The way the tennis and baseball tracking systems work is with cameras, but tennis shots and baseball pitches are always visible. Half the time in a football game we have 15 different 720p, super high frame rate camera angles but still can't see the ball very well.

I think a good compromise would again be replay officials signaling down to the field for a re-spot rather than relying on coaches challenging, etc.

 

[pythagoras]

lol is this for real?

Lol no

 

[CP87]

The problem with football would be that even the best GPS available right now is down to about a foot, and even then it's such a low resolution that it'd jump all over the place within a huge range.

One could probably have a transmitter in each end of the ball and triangulate it with receivers in the stadium, but what happens when the ball is covered up, or blocked by bodies, pads, etc?

The way the tennis and baseball tracking systems work is with cameras, but tennis shots and baseball pitches are always visible. Half the time in a football game we have 15 different 720p, super high frame rate camera angles but still can't see the ball very well.

I think a good compromise would again be replay officials signaling down to the field for a re-spot rather than relying on coaches challenging, etc.

All NFL stadiums have local electromagnetic positioning systems installed, and all players are required to have sensors in their shoulder pads. Zebra technologies is the company that provides the systems. This is how they can provide details on the broadcasts about how fast someone is moving from instant to instant.

The local positioning systems can locate to within millimeters, so precision would not be a problem if there was a sensor in the ball. But of course, the challenge is not just knowing where the ball is, but rather where the ball is at the instant the knee touches the ground.

 

[Fryowa]

Zebra technologies is the company that provides the systems. This is how they can provide details on the broadcasts about how fast someone is moving from instant to instant.

The local positioning systems can locate to within millimeters, so precision would not be a problem if there was a sensor in the ball.

Here's a 2019 article with the Zebra CEO saying the accuracy is only good down to 6 inches. That's not enough.

Also, if the ball is covered up or blocked by bodies it isn't going to register, especially not as accurately as would be needed to spot the ball.

 

[Ree4]

Lol no

Hahah it would not have surprised me at all

 

[Ree4]

The local positioning systems can locate to within millimeters, so precision would not be a problem if there was a sensor in the ball. But of course, the challenge is not just knowing where the ball is, but rather where the ball is at the instant the knee touches the ground.

Then you're getting to the next step, sensors in knee pads! Of course this is overcomplicating things and would require people in the back room to coordinate video review time stamps with the location of the ball in the sensor at the point in time where the sensor in the knee pad abruptly stops or changes direction (bounces). Of course this is pretty far fetched but it isnt that crazy sci-fi is it?