EXACTLY
Northwestern University football players are seeking union representation
- Thread starter FoolishFellow
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kicker22
Well-Known Member
The other thing I see is that its "a way out" for so many of these athletes. The guys that focus on sports to stay off the streets, have rough childhoods, or keep out themselves out of trouble. There's simply so many factors aside from the free education, etc...that these athletes simply don't realize.
Maybe the NCAA should pay/give stipends to everyone and then simply add a clause that if the players don't end up turning their sport into a profession then they have to pay it all back since they will have no choice but to make all future earnings based on the education they received from that university. As OK4P stated "it's guys like Manziel who make a ton for the whole system" so the lesser players are actually collectively taking more advantage of the elite athletes then the universities are if they feel that they should be paid for riding the coattails of the elites in terms of bringing in revenue to the university.
Maybe the NCAA should pay/give stipends to everyone and then simply add a clause that if the players don't end up turning their sport into a profession then they have to pay it all back since they will have no choice but to make all future earnings based on the education they received from that university. As OK4P stated "it's guys like Manziel who make a ton for the whole system" so the lesser players are actually collectively taking more advantage of the elite athletes then the universities are if they feel that they should be paid for riding the coattails of the elites in terms of bringing in revenue to the university.
hawkinn3
Well-Known Member
These players fail to realize that they don't matter, no player matters. Fans are loyal to their school no matter what. The schools could always get rid of all benefits, no scholly, no room and board and have a try out from the student body each year. Kinnick would still be packed on Saturday.
kicker22
Well-Known Member
I happen to be a die hard juco fan and one of the things I enjoy, albeit I support a great program (Southeastern) is the fact that the rosters completely turn over every two seasons. While the talent level isn't the same as Division 1 its still played at a very high level (at least for the elite levels). The players rotate through the system but based on the recruiting you see just as many dynasties/powerhouses as you do at the division 1 level.
SpiderRico
Well-Known Member
No biggie here guys, I just disagree. Look, I know the Supreme Court did not deem them as employees, and I respect their opinion on the matter. I just think times have changed and this needs to be re-looked at. All I know is that these institutions have taken what was once a "not-for-profit" endeavor...something that was simply an "add-on" that supported the University's overall mission...and turned it into a multi-billion dollar empire. And have done it largely with "free" labor while pocketing the billions and distributing it to those who, by and large, sit in the ivory tower watching young men maul each other for a "free" education. And for those that say "welcome to the real world", I kindly disagree. That isn't the real world. In the real world, a man (or woman) that has certain talents has a multitude of options in which to bargain or barter those talents for fair wages. These young men can't take their talents to the NFL because of age limitations, so they must go the college football route...the only route available. For all intents and purposes, a monopoly set up. They don't have the option to go to Wells Fargo, or Principal or Banker's Trust to try and get a better deal. I just know that Pandora's Box has been opened and it ain't closing......
Exactly right. If they are deemed to be "employees" even the value of their tuition reimbursement (scholarship) would be taxable. Current IRS rule is any tuition reimbursement above $5250 is taxed.
This is all about lawyers and unions trying to get a slice of the NCAA honey pie.
FoolishFellow
Well-Known Member
Everyone's forgetting the third option and arguably the one that makes the most sense (Even though it might be tough to stomach). Remove all athletics (except intrumural leagues) from state funded Universities.
By posting this here I knew the ideological arguments about unions would surface. However, those complaining about the so called "entitlement generation" have no idea what they are talking about. I highly recommend watching the film "Hoop Dreams" if you want a little insight about how messed up athletics are in this country. The film was made in 1996, but it's still relevant today even if the laws and rules may be slightly different. Yes, I know this is a basketball film, and the NBA and NFL use NCAA athletics in slightly different ways. I post this film because it contains some universal truths that real sports fans need to be aware of.
The users on this board saying that players don't matter are exactly what's wrong with sports in the United States. These people seem to think that players are some sort of second-rate gladiatorial-citizens whose sole right to existence is to entertain the masses.
Here's the link to Hoop Dreams if you're interested:
[video=youtube;cMyvImhdBB8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMyvImhdBB8[/video]
By posting this here I knew the ideological arguments about unions would surface. However, those complaining about the so called "entitlement generation" have no idea what they are talking about. I highly recommend watching the film "Hoop Dreams" if you want a little insight about how messed up athletics are in this country. The film was made in 1996, but it's still relevant today even if the laws and rules may be slightly different. Yes, I know this is a basketball film, and the NBA and NFL use NCAA athletics in slightly different ways. I post this film because it contains some universal truths that real sports fans need to be aware of.
The users on this board saying that players don't matter are exactly what's wrong with sports in the United States. These people seem to think that players are some sort of second-rate gladiatorial-citizens whose sole right to existence is to entertain the masses.
Here's the link to Hoop Dreams if you're interested:
[video=youtube;cMyvImhdBB8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMyvImhdBB8[/video]
HawkeyeWalker
Well-Known Member
Not really sure what you are talking about, but it's nice of you to respect others opinions, especially the SCOTUS. That said, your premise seems to be this "endentured servant" thinking that the corrupt system takes advantage of athletes. Again, they don't have to play, they don't have to accept the scholly. You seem to just be talking about football, how are you going to handle ALL scholly athletes...
If you think STUDENT-athletes are going to get some kind of revenue share, you are very wrong. They Should get a stipend(up to $1000/month MAX), protection on the medical redshirt, etc). Again.....What do you think they should get paid, remember, every scholly athlete gets the same...
okeefe4prez
Well-Known Member
Not to sound harsh, but the players really don't matter, though. The value in collegiate athletics is the association individual fans have with a university based on alumni status or geography and the intellectual property tied to the school (e.g., Hawkeyes, Herky, Kinnick Stadium, etc.). If you took every 3 star and above recruit out of the picture for NCAA football and said "no more scholarships" you'd still have a line a mile long of kids from all around Iowa and western Illinois who would line up to play at Kinnick and provided that every other team was similarly restricted so there weren't major competitive imbalances, you'd still pack the fans into Kinnick every Saturday. Any individual player today only matters to the extent he gives one's team a better shot to gain a competitive edge over the opposition and an entire cottage industry has sprung up (that this board was previously associated with) to analyze 16 and 17 year old kids for the benefit of the fans.
What fans ultimately care about is competitive balance. If a broad junior league football or basketball program started and pulled virtually all of the NFL or NBA prospects out of the collegiate pool before the kids even enrolled, I don't think anyone would care about the talent diminution in the NCAA so long as their applicable collegiate program remained good relative to its peers (e.g., Michigan would still want to beat OSU and vice versa, it's just that they'd have to do it without guys like Charles Woodson or Terrelle Pryor). But the pro leagues understand that even if they get the top 18-20 year old talent and put it into a pool they cannot compete with the established brand equity that the colleges have and so they wisely have not even tried and choose to treat the NCAA as their minor leagues. But really, the fact that the NBA and NFL aren't lining up to capitalize on all of this alleged value of these 18 year old kids is proof that they simply don't generate the economic value they think they do. The schools and lifelong rabid fans like all of us on HN are really where the value comes from.
FoolishFellow
Well-Known Member
I see lots of people here talking about the SCOTUS case. Just so everyone is clear, that case (NCAA v. Board of Regents of the University of Oklahoma) was decided way back in 1984 and was about television rights. Obviously this issue is tied to player wage issue, but a future case would likely be framed very differently.
Furthermore, while 1984 really wasn't that long ago (in the grand scheme of things), the media market is drastically different then it was back then.
Furthermore, while 1984 really wasn't that long ago (in the grand scheme of things), the media market is drastically different then it was back then.
hawkdrummer1
Well-Known Member
Classic. I'll let your post speak for itself.
seepig
Well-Known Member
I say pay them and you can offer a kid an amount up to $XXX dollars and that's the kids offer and then tell him he has to use a portion of this to pay for his education. As long as everyone pays the same amount and it can't exceed a reasonable amount then it's back to being equal..the kid can either choose to spend part of his money on getting an education which is what 90% of them are going to need or a kid can go play ball wait till he gets injured and use his scholly money to pay for tuition to get his degree.
FoolishFellow
Well-Known Member
Also, just for further clarification it looks like the goal of this is to get healthcare coverage for sports related medical expenses for current and former athletes and compensation for sponsorships. They're also trying to establish a trust fund for former players who are interested in completing degrees. Doesn't looks like they are pushing the wage issue at all at this point.
Northwestern University Football Players Seek to Form Union - Bloomberg
Northwestern University Football Players Seek to Form Union - Bloomberg
okeefe4prez
Well-Known Member
Yeah, and if you like your plan, you can keep your plan. This is about cash money and that is it, but it's cute that you believe it is about anything else. The union is savvy enough to know that you don't lead with money. Ultimately, Kain Colter is butthurt because he tore up his ankle and he doesn't think he got adequate treatment immediately following the injury and so he blames that for his crappy year and is using healthcare as a front for this agenda.
