MLB - AL MVP

[OUTofTOWNHAWK]

HAHA Sorry bro, you lost all credibility when you called Cabrera a great third baseman. He was the 3rd worst 3b in all of baseball defensively behind only Pacheco and Hanley Ramirez. He was a crappy 1b that had to move to 3rd because they brought in an even fatter 1b.

Hahahaha how many games have you watched? You dont know anything.

 

[Travisam]

I've watched Miggy play 3rd many times. Enough to know that he sucks defensively. Metrics don't lie. Let me guess, you probably think that Jeter is a good SS lol?

 

[bogeyman]

On April 28th, the day Trout got called up, the Angels were in last place. Since that day the Angels have the best record in all of baseball. Coincidence? I think not. I'd say the 10.3 wins that he has personally contributed have a huge bit to do with that. In any other season a triple crown by Cabrera would deserve it. Just so happens that he ran up against one of the greatest seasons in the history of the game by Trout.

The reason they were in last place might have had more to do with the fact that the guy they sold the farm for Pujols had no home runs and less than 10 RBIs if I remember right. Had he hit as well as even a $5million a year player in April they'd probably be in the playoffs right now. On paper, before the season even started most "experts" were picking the Angels to make the playoffs even without Trout.
If ever there was a case for a split MVP voting in a year this would probably be it. Trout can still at least win ROY I believe right?

 

[hawkfarmer]

The reason they were in last place might have had more to do with the fact that the guy they sold the farm for Pujols had no home runs and less than 10 RBIs if I remember right. Had he hit as well as even a $5million a year player in April they'd probably be in the playoffs right now. On paper, before the season even started most "experts" were picking the Angels to make the playoffs even without Trout.
If ever there was a case for a split MVP voting in a year this would probably be it. Trout can still at least win ROY I believe right?

And even with him they couldn't make it. So that is why he is not getting my MVP vote.

 

[bogeyman]

One other thing just to throw out that maybe people don't think about is I believe the Triple Crown in Today's game could be even more special than it use to be. Back in the day some of the pitchers the hitters were facing were throwing on fumes. They'd see a guy at his 120th pitch a lot more often I'd guess. Today, they are facing a pitcher maybe 2-3 times in one game, then they face a specialist (closer, lefty specialist etc.) for an at bat or two, usually a guy set aside at the end who comes in throwing absolute gas and is fresh etc. Constantly changing pitchers and getting new looks and fresh arms makes it tougher to hit IMO. Just a thought anyway.
Yes he's not a great 3B, he should be at 1B or DH. I'd sure take him at 3B for the Cubs though But I think we need to sit back and appreciate the fact we are witnessing history here and may not see it for another 40 years.

 

[theboat]

Pretty simple really

Year Lg Player Team/(BA, HR, RBI)
1967 AL Carl Yastrzemski BOS .326, 44 HR, 121 RBI
1966 AL Frank Robinson BAL .316, 49 HR, 122 RBI
1956 AL Mickey Mantle NYY .353, 52 HR, 130 RBI
1947 AL Ted Williams BOS .343, 32 HR, 114 RBI
1942 AL Ted Williams BOS .356, 36 HR, 137 RBI
1937 NL Joe Medwick STL .374, 31 HR, 154 RBI
1934 AL Lou Gehrig NYY .363, 49 HR, 165 RBI
1933 AL Jimmie Foxx PHA .356, 48 HR, 163 RBI
1933 NL Chuck Klein PHI .368, 28 HR, 120 RBI
1925 NL Rogers Hornsby STL .403, 39 HR, 143 RBI
1922 NL Rogers Hornsby STL .401, 42 HR, 152 RBI
1909 AL Ty Cobb DET .377, 9 HR, 107 RBI
1901 AL Nap Lajoie PHA .426, 14 HR, 125 RBI
1887 AA Tip O'Neill STL .435, 14 HR, 123 RBI
1878 NL Paul Hines PRO .358, 4 HR, 50 RBI

That is 15 times in 134 years.


Where as Trout has done amazing things, but Rickey Henderson did similar things in a few different seasons during his career.

Trout's season is great. Cabrera's is historic.

 

[1977Hawkeye]

If Cabrera wins the first triple crown in over 40 years, he should be the unanimous MVP. Trout is having a great season, but a triple crown is a triple crown.

 

[woodyk1]

Pretty simple really

Year Lg Player Team/(BA, HR, RBI)
1967 AL Carl Yastrzemski BOS .326, 44 HR, 121 RBI
1966 AL Frank Robinson BAL .316, 49 HR, 122 RBI
1956 AL Mickey Mantle NYY .353, 52 HR, 130 RBI
1947 AL Ted Williams BOS .343, 32 HR, 114 RBI
1942 AL Ted Williams BOS .356, 36 HR, 137 RBI
1937 NL Joe Medwick STL .374, 31 HR, 154 RBI
1934 AL Lou Gehrig NYY .363, 49 HR, 165 RBI
1933 AL Jimmie Foxx PHA .356, 48 HR, 163 RBI
1933 NL Chuck Klein PHI .368, 28 HR, 120 RBI
1925 NL Rogers Hornsby STL .403, 39 HR, 143 RBI
1922 NL Rogers Hornsby STL .401, 42 HR, 152 RBI
1909 AL Ty Cobb DET .377, 9 HR, 107 RBI
1901 AL Nap Lajoie PHA .426, 14 HR, 125 RBI
1887 AA Tip O'Neill STL .435, 14 HR, 123 RBI
1878 NL Paul Hines PRO .358, 4 HR, 50 RBI

That is 15 times in 134 years.


Where as Trout has done amazing things, but Rickey Henderson did similar things in a few different seasons during his career.

Trout's season is great. Cabrera's is historic.

I realize this is nitpicking stats too, but according to this article (which actually is touting Cabrera to win), Trout has had an unprecedented season. So, that's pretty historic too.

Angels rookie Mike Trout has put together a season that is unprecedented in baseball history. Trout has 45 steals, 30 home runs and 125 runs scored in a season, which according to ESPN Stats and Info, is the first time in Major League Baseball history in which that has happened.

Miguel Cabrera: Why the Tigers Star Deserves to Win the AL MVP over Mike Trout | Bleacher Report

 

[theboat]

I realize this is nitpicking stats too, but according to this article (which actually is touting Cabrera to win), Trout has had an unprecedented season. So, that's pretty historic too.

Angels rookie Mike Trout has put together a season that is unprecedented in baseball history. Trout has 45 steals, 30 home runs and 125 runs scored in a season, which according to ESPN Stats and Info, is the first time in Major League Baseball history in which that has happened.

Miguel Cabrera: Why the Tigers Star Deserves to Win the AL MVP over Mike Trout | Bleacher Report

There have been some that were pretty close.

Rickey Henderson
1985. 146 runs. 24 HR. 80 SB
1986. 130 runs. 28 HR. 87 SB
1990. 119 runs. 28 HR. 65 SB

Jose Canseco
1988. 120 runs. 42 HR. 40SB

 

[DJL]

Silly huh? Ok, well Trout won the triple crown too. He led in Runs, Stolen bases, and WAR. Now we're even on statistical leadership of 3 completely arbitrary statistics. Trout wins the tie breaker by being better at baseball. Trout saved his team 13.3 runs defensively while Cabrera cost his team 9.3 runs defensively. That's a 22 run difference defensively. Trout created 6.8 runs on the basebaths while Cabrera cost his team 2.3 runs by clogging the basebaths. That's a 9.1 run difference. You're talking about a 33 run differential when you bring in defense and baserunning which, last I checked, were very important parts of the game. The only silly thing is to ignore 2/3 of the game and give a guy the MVP because he led the league in 3 categories while being a liability in the field and on the basebaths.

I agree that Trout is an unbelievable talent who will win his share of MVPs. But your "arbitrary" stats are not equal. You talk about a 33 run differential when you bring in defense and basrunning, but Cabrera had 54 more RBIs. So technically, he produced more runs for his team. Now I understand Cabrera had a little more time this year to compile these stats, so they are fairly equal. So what do you look to next? What team is in the playoffs? Like it or not, the guy who led his team to the playoffs gets the nod for MVP over the guy who didn't a lot of the time (unless you are Andre Dawson, then you can have an MVP season on a bad Cubs team )

 

[iahawks912]

Cabrera and it is close.

 

[woodyk1]

There have been some that were pretty close.

Rickey Henderson
1985. 146 runs. 24 HR. 80 SB
1986. 130 runs. 28 HR. 87 SB
1990. 119 runs. 28 HR. 65 SB

Jose Canseco
1988. 120 runs. 42 HR. 40SB

Very true in those cases (and there have been some others). And Trout had his unprecedented season missing the first few weeks of the season. The point is that you can make stats make your case in any way you like. I won't have a problem with Cabrera winning, but saying he won the Triple Crown is not the only reason to point to. In baseball, one player will not make a team make the playoffs. Trout is the biggest difference maker in the league (and maybe that's not the MVP by some standards).

This is a great case for the new stats vs old stats and it will be interesting to see how the vote goes. How much does Trout lose in the MVP race because he will win Rookie of the Year?

 

[theboat]

Very true in those cases (and there have been some others). And Trout had his unprecedented season missing the first few weeks of the season. The point is that you can make stats make your case in any way you like. I won't have a problem with Cabrera winning, but saying he won the Triple Crown is not the only reason to point to. In baseball, one player will not make a team make the playoffs. Trout is the biggest difference maker in the league (and maybe that's not the MVP by some standards).

This is a great case for the new stats vs old stats and it will be interesting to see how the vote goes. How much does Trout lose in the MVP race because he will win Rookie of the Year?

I don't disagree with anything you said, but the Triple Crown is the Triple Crown.

 

[thejumper5]

I voted for Trout here, but I have gone back and forth. One thing that I haven't seen talked about much is that Trout has an advantage over Cabrera in that the scouting reports have had to evolve on the fly for him because he hasn't played but 40 games before this year. Cabrera has 10 years worth of film and data for pitchers to use to pitch to him. That will inflate Trout's numbers, in comparison to Cabrera's.

 

[BLKNGOLD48]

Pretty simple really

Year Lg Player Team/(BA, HR, RBI)
1967 AL Carl Yastrzemski BOS .326, 44 HR, 121 RBI
1966 AL Frank Robinson BAL .316, 49 HR, 122 RBI
1956 AL Mickey Mantle NYY .353, 52 HR, 130 RBI
1947 AL Ted Williams BOS .343, 32 HR, 114 RBI
1942 AL Ted Williams BOS .356, 36 HR, 137 RBI
1937 NL Joe Medwick STL .374, 31 HR, 154 RBI
1934 AL Lou Gehrig NYY .363, 49 HR, 165 RBI
1933 AL Jimmie Foxx PHA .356, 48 HR, 163 RBI
1933 NL Chuck Klein PHI .368, 28 HR, 120 RBI
1925 NL Rogers Hornsby STL .403, 39 HR, 143 RBI
1922 NL Rogers Hornsby STL .401, 42 HR, 152 RBI
1909 AL Ty Cobb DET .377, 9 HR, 107 RBI
1901 AL Nap Lajoie PHA .426, 14 HR, 125 RBI
1887 AA Tip O'Neill STL .435, 14 HR, 123 RBI
1878 NL Paul Hines PRO .358, 4 HR, 50 RBI

That is 15 times in 134 years.


Where as Trout has done amazing things, but Rickey Henderson did similar things in a few different seasons during his career.

Trout's season is great. Cabrera's is historic.

This.... If Cabrera wins the triple crown, no way Trout will get MVP.

 

[woodyk1]

And even with him they couldn't make it. So that is why he is not getting my MVP vote.

As far as the playoffs comment, the Angels have a better record (89-71) than the Tigers (87-73) in a tougher division (2 other teams - Rangers and A's in the playoffs). So, switch the Angels and Tigers places and the Angels make the playoffs (probably). That's interesting too, right?

 

[hawkfarmer]

As far as the playoffs comment, the Angels have a better record (89-71) than the Tigers (87-73) in a tougher division (2 other teams - Rangers and A's in the playoffs). So, switch the Angels and Tigers places and the Angels make the playoffs (probably). That's interesting too, right?

No, I don't think it is. The Tigers had to win their division, not the angels, and the angels didn't need to win the central. I'm not saying it doesn't matter, but you know what you have to do to win and you do that. I'm not saying Cabrera gets them the extra 2 Ws if they need it, but he didn't need to. To me that is all that matters, getting into the playoffs, with those numbers.

I voted for Cabrera based on that, and you can pick Trout if you want based on your reasons, but I think the Angels severely underachieved even with Trout's amazing season.

 

[woodyk1]

No, I don't think it is. The Tigers had to win their division, not the angels, and the angels didn't need to win the central. I'm not saying it doesn't matter, but you know what you have to do to win and you do that. I'm not saying Cabrera gets them the extra 2 Ws if they need it, but he didn't need to. To me that is all that matters, getting into the playoffs, with those numbers.

I voted for Cabrera based on that, and you can pick Trout if you want based on your reasons, but I think the Angels severely underachieved even with Trout's amazing season.

Fair enough. Your reasons are good and like I said, if Cabrera wins, it's not that big of a deal.

I looked around at MLB over/unders from before the year and most had Detroit with more wins than the Angels. Here's an example:

2012 MLB Over/Under Win Totals

Much of that had to do with the division they played in and what was thought of the division at the time. The Angels matched their win total (89) in the article with Oakland in their exceeding theirs by 20 or so. Pretty impressive. Detroit didn't match their total and still won their division because it is bad. That's all I was saying.

For fun, take a look at the over/unders of Oakland, Baltimore, and Washington in one way and Philly, Miami, and Boston in another.

 

[woodyk1]

Interesting ... on ESPN Outside the Lines (podcast linked here), 4 baseball writes (Richard Justice, Keith Law, Ken Rosenthal, and Jason Stark) all agreed that they would vote for Trout, but that Cabrera will win. It's a good discussion (similar to what we have discussed here).

Outside The Lines - ESPN

 

[thejumper5]

Interesting ... on ESPN Outside the Lines (podcast linked here), 4 baseball writes (Richard Justice, Keith Law, Ken Rosenthal, and Jason Stark) all agreed that they would vote for Trout, but that Cabrera will win. It's a good discussion (similar to what we have discussed here).

Outside The Lines - ESPN

If enough writers think, "I'll vote for Trout, even though Cabrera will win," Trout will end up winning.