I don't think Hayden had nearly the number of NFL players. Player development and identifying recruits has been Kirk's biggest advantage. Also, Kirk's OL's have been outstanding and he's tried to play a style that emphasizes that fact. That's a must at Iowa considering the type of player we are likely to recruit. Hayden had better QBs on average. It helps he had Bill Snyder for 10 years as OC/QB coach. Hayden coached like the "new kirk" his whole career.
Kirk's Legacy
- Thread starter smhawk
- Start date
hawkdrummer1
Well-Known Member
I'm curious...what year would that have been? If it was 1982, following IOWA's Rosebowl...that spread would be ludicrous considering IOWA didn't even average 25 points/game total the year before...no less that kind of spread.
If it's 1998...it's again a ridiculous spread as the two players responsible for IOWA's explosive points the year before...Tim Dwight and Tavian Banks had both graduated. That would also be the fall that IOWA limped through the season with a coach that could barely make it to work...and as such, retired following the season.
So, yeah...might be true. But it still pales compared to KFz's multiple brain farts against ISU teams he clearly should have beaten.
SmokeTownHawk
Well-Known Member
I appreciate both Hayden and Kirk and their respective contributions. To pull up a moribund program that had been in the doldrums for 2 decades and bring it prominence and respectability is a feat that seals Fry's fate in college football history. Not to mention his first-rate ability to nurture coaching talent as evidenced by his coaching tree.
Kirk takes over and filling the cupboard with respectable and sometimes great talent with his gift of finding under the radar players and creating a developmental program second to none. This approach has obviously had its ups and downs. But this current renewal to closing and winning games; whether one calls it New Kirk or KF v 3.0 is something that does not happen very often in other places if at all.
Having said all that a number of fans when remembering Hayden dream like his entire tenure was 1985 over and over again. Nothing could be further from the truth. What sours me about Fry was his indignant answer when some unwashed fan dare ask him on WHO why he couldn't take Iowa to the next level? Crying like a little school girl when talking about how Iowa's a small state with bad weather....He wanted a public job without the public scrutiny. Suck it up and deal with it. Maybe it was too much for him to understand but this is how we do it in Iowa.
I realize KF has stated before how difficult it is to get 5* and even a lot of 4* kids to play for the Hawks. But to me he is dealing with the recruiting situation in a much better way.
Kirk takes over and filling the cupboard with respectable and sometimes great talent with his gift of finding under the radar players and creating a developmental program second to none. This approach has obviously had its ups and downs. But this current renewal to closing and winning games; whether one calls it New Kirk or KF v 3.0 is something that does not happen very often in other places if at all.
Having said all that a number of fans when remembering Hayden dream like his entire tenure was 1985 over and over again. Nothing could be further from the truth. What sours me about Fry was his indignant answer when some unwashed fan dare ask him on WHO why he couldn't take Iowa to the next level? Crying like a little school girl when talking about how Iowa's a small state with bad weather....He wanted a public job without the public scrutiny. Suck it up and deal with it. Maybe it was too much for him to understand but this is how we do it in Iowa.
I realize KF has stated before how difficult it is to get 5* and even a lot of 4* kids to play for the Hawks. But to me he is dealing with the recruiting situation in a much better way.
smhawk
Well-Known Member
Pretty good discussion. Yeah a lot of the respect I have for Fry isn't just how his highest accomplishments compare but more based on how far he turned the program around. But just looking at the coaching tree that he is part of is also impressive. Don't think Kirk will have assistants go on to having the success that Fry's coaches did and continue to have. But I don't know, k.o.k. could very well end up in the hall of fame.
Pretty happy Ferentz was able to get the program to this level again though, I had zero hope in this team going into this season.
Pretty happy Ferentz was able to get the program to this level again though, I had zero hope in this team going into this season.
hawkdrummer1
Well-Known Member
It's damned impressive when you step back and look at what these two coaches have achieved, and their longevity. Unbelievable.
IATrainMaster101
Well-Known Member
Ferentz has done more to date. More major bowls, bigger bowl wins, more seasons in the national title conversation (02,09,15). Both inherited the program in bad shape.
Fry had to build this program from the ground up, change the culture and mentality. For that he will always be a legend. There was not a better coach for Iowa at that time. Fry was tough, innovative, endearing , bullheaded but most of all commuted to the job here.
While there were coaches that could have changed thins here, most would have used the job as a stepping stone.
Hayden put together a legendary staff and build a model of a program.
Hayden brought Ferentz here, mentored him and helped his upward climb.
At the end Hayden left the cupboard here empty. Ferentz came in here and took an undersized, less athletic team and rebuilt it in just a couple of years. He brought a new " lunch pale " carrying, workman like discipline based approach and caught the attention of everyone. He turned skinny QBs into all American LBs and tight ends, running backs into NFL d tackles.
He found toughness and athleticism where he could , coached them and put them in positions where they could become impact playmakers.
He took what Hayden built, revived it with his vision of success, taken it further, and maintained it longer.
This is not a blue blood program in a recruiting hot bed, but it is long term highly successful program. Both coaches are college football hall of fame material in my book.
Fry had to build this program from the ground up, change the culture and mentality. For that he will always be a legend. There was not a better coach for Iowa at that time. Fry was tough, innovative, endearing , bullheaded but most of all commuted to the job here.
While there were coaches that could have changed thins here, most would have used the job as a stepping stone.
Hayden put together a legendary staff and build a model of a program.
Hayden brought Ferentz here, mentored him and helped his upward climb.
At the end Hayden left the cupboard here empty. Ferentz came in here and took an undersized, less athletic team and rebuilt it in just a couple of years. He brought a new " lunch pale " carrying, workman like discipline based approach and caught the attention of everyone. He turned skinny QBs into all American LBs and tight ends, running backs into NFL d tackles.
He found toughness and athleticism where he could , coached them and put them in positions where they could become impact playmakers.
He took what Hayden built, revived it with his vision of success, taken it further, and maintained it longer.
This is not a blue blood program in a recruiting hot bed, but it is long term highly successful program. Both coaches are college football hall of fame material in my book.
IATrainMaster101
Well-Known Member
Sorry for typos choppy writing. I post on a tiny iPhone and editing is nearly impossible.
ColumbusHawk
Well-Known Member
In '98, Iowa lost to Moo U. by seventeen points as a thirty point favorite. Plus, the game was in Iowa City!
SpiderRico
Well-Known Member
Trying to determine who has the better legacy between Fry and Ferentz is like trying to ask me which of my children I love best. Both Fry and Ferentz brought their own stamp to the program and left it/will leave it in much better shape than when they took it over.
But as fans, we need to keep this in mind......In the 37 years since Fry took over the program, we have had 2 straight, bona fide Hall of Fame coaches. And in those 37 years the program has won a total of 270 games....an average of 7.3 wins/season. To me, that just goes to show how tough this job really is. There aren't many people on the planet that are overall better football coaches than Fry and Ferentz and we were damn lucky to have them....yet their average wins is only 7.3/season with a combined winning % of 59.9%.
But as fans, we need to keep this in mind......In the 37 years since Fry took over the program, we have had 2 straight, bona fide Hall of Fame coaches. And in those 37 years the program has won a total of 270 games....an average of 7.3 wins/season. To me, that just goes to show how tough this job really is. There aren't many people on the planet that are overall better football coaches than Fry and Ferentz and we were damn lucky to have them....yet their average wins is only 7.3/season with a combined winning % of 59.9%.
The success certainly allowed them longevity, but I also think the longevity afforded them by the administration helped to foster their success. I think there is a real benefit to stability (even occasionally mediocre stability), and this program has benefited from 35+ years of stability. I also think this is one of the biggest draws of the program for the next potential coach: they should feel confident that the administration will give them every opportunity to be successful.
trj
Well-Known Member
In Kf's defense in the 80's and 90's ISU was really bad they look like Patroits now compared to the way they used to look. Kf's 8-9 record against ISU is inexcusable that being said I think it is a bit much to ask him to be 17-0. I'm not sure what the magic record should be.......I don't know 12-5,13-4 something closer to that than 8-9.
ChosenChildren
Well-Known Member
I prefer to think of it as the "Mount Rushmore" of Iowa football coaches. To me, this season cemented the Ferentz legacy as one of those four coaches on Mount Rushmore, in no particular order: Jones; Evy; Ferentz; Fry. I would love to see Kirk break Hayden's record for wins at Iowa, which I believe is 143. Kirk is now at 127, and hopefully 128 in a few weeks!!!!
ChosenChildren
Well-Known Member
Here is what Fry and Ferentz have accomplished together in 37 years (pretty impressive): 270 wins, or an AVERAGE of 7.3 wins per year; 27 bowl games; 13 and possibly 14 bowl championships; 6 Big Ten championships of some kind; 7 Top 10 finishes; 4 Rose Bowls; 2 Orange Bowls; 6 Top 10 finishes, assuming we finish in the Top 10 this year; A Maxwell Trophy winner; Outland Trophy winners; Doak Walker winner; Thorpe award winner; 2 Heisman second place finishes; many, many All-Americans and each had a really good "16" at QB; etc. etc.
ColumbusHawk
Well-Known Member
Actually, it will be seven top ten finishes if the Hawks finish in the top ten this year. Kirk already has four: '02, '03, '04 & '09. Hayden had two in '85 & '91.
hawkdrummer1
Well-Known Member
Yep, I went back and dug that up. How they came up with a 30 point spread is beyond me, considering all the graduating talent and a lackluster QB options. No offense to Randy Reiners, I know his family.
That was a bad loss, in a painful last year for Hayden.
It probably had something to do with the fact we had won 15 straight going into that game. Most of those wins were lopsided. I only see 2 of the 15 wins that were within one score. Still 30 seems high.
HomerChampless
Well-Known Member
This thread has 'evolved' into a 'comparison' between KF and Fry. One comparison I can make is Hayden wore sunglasses and white pants during games and KF starts every sentence with a verb. Likes to play close to the vest.
Another comparison is Hayden had a coaching tree because he allowed coaches to actively participate in game time decisions. KF, until recently, had a bunch of yes men and therefore not so much of a coaching tree. Concluding KF knew more about college football than Hayden since KF made or participated in most of the decisions. On the flip side, Hayden realized his limitations and KF????? That Hayden's assistants knew more about college football and KF's???
Both coaches brought fame and success to Iowa football. Guess it depends on your ideology...how you vote...what you worship.
Another comparison is Hayden had a coaching tree because he allowed coaches to actively participate in game time decisions. KF, until recently, had a bunch of yes men and therefore not so much of a coaching tree. Concluding KF knew more about college football than Hayden since KF made or participated in most of the decisions. On the flip side, Hayden realized his limitations and KF????? That Hayden's assistants knew more about college football and KF's???
Both coaches brought fame and success to Iowa football. Guess it depends on your ideology...how you vote...what you worship.
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deanvogs
Well-Known Member
Are you trying to say that KF is the better coach then? I mean if Hayden had all world assistants, and KF has garbage assistants, wouldn't that mean KF had to be one hellz of a coach to get results, and Hayden really didn't have to be a good coach because he had those All Stars running the team?
Just curious, you don't get to have it both ways....ya know?
You say this like averaging 7.3 wins over a 37 year period isn't good. Now I'm certain you'd be able to find 10 power 5 programs who average more wins per year. I'm not certain you'd get to 20 though.
hawkdrummer1
Well-Known Member
I maintain that if you gave them similar talent on opposite sidelines, Hayden would beat Kirk 6-7 out of 10 times.
