IT'S THE TALENT STUPID!!!

BSpringsteen

BSpringsteen

Well-Known Member
I know that they are trying their hardest, and hate losing. I don't blame them for being put into situations where they aren't likely to be able to succeed.

Coaches do not stop knowing how to coach. Schemes do not suddenly become ineffective. These things do not change. What changes are the players.

When KF says we were not good enough to win, he's right. Problem is that is on him.

Let's go through the positions on this team and see where they would rank in the B1G in terms of effectiveness.

OL: The Hallmark of KF.


There are 60 starting OL in the B1G. I think that we have 2 OL that rank in the top 30. Of those 2, we are anchored by someone whose head is already in the NFL or clearly is not good enough to play in the NFL.

QB:


There are 12 starting QB's in the B1G. I would draft ours 8th or 9th. Statistics can lie a lot of times. Stanzi didn't have a great statistical year in 09, and did in 10. Records would not have indicated that. Our QB play has been mediocre.

RB:

Of the 16 or so RB's that get significant time, I would rank our starting RB 3rd or 4th. Top 25%, not bad at all.

WR:

This is where it gets tricky. Of the 24 starting WR, one would rank in the top 6, and the other would rank in the top 15. Average out to top 50% as a starting unit.

However, there IS NOT another WR on this team who is a legitimate B1G player RIGHT NOW. The drop off from 2-3 is astronomical.

TE: Another KF Hallmark

We do not have a TE on our roster that is a B1G caliber TE right now. One of them may very well turn into that, but right now we don't.

So we have a grossly overrated OL, with an ineffective QB who only really has two receiving targets and a RB that while bordering on elite doesn't give you the game breaking ability you might need with the rest of the offense as a unit.

Onto the D:

DL: NFL be gone.

The argument that we are young would be great if we weren't starting 4 SR's. Of the 48 starting DL in the B1G, we have 1 who would rank in the top 20. Another that ranks in the top 30. Of those two, they both haven't gotten better than they were two years ago. Two of them are not B1G caliber players.

LB: Of the 36 starting LB's in the B1G, I would say that we don't have 1 that is a top 18 LB. Again, they might turn into that one day, but it isn't right now.

DB: Of the 48 starting DB's in the B1G, we have 3 that would rank in the top 24 players. Two might even be in the top 18. However, when the rest of the defense looks as it does above, how are the DB's supposed to be effective.

Bottom line, the cupboard is approaching the time where we need to go to the grocery store. KF likes to go shopping for off brands that he thinks will end up tasting great when thrown into the pot. But, his track record while incredible for taking MAC level talent and putting them into the NFL, shows that most of the time, they stay MAC level talent.

We need to recruit better, end of story. Having a recruiting philosophy where you take players who are happy just to get a B1G offer is an amazing story when they end up in the NFL. Most of the time though, that does not happen.

Whatever has happened to our recruiting, it isn't good. Our scouting hasn't been good. Our development hasn't been good. And our retention has been abhorrent.
 
SwirlinLingerie said:
Who are the 7 or 8 starting QBs in the Big Ten that you rank ahead of Vandenberg?
Click to expand...

In no particular order:

Russel Wilson
Nathan Sheelhouse
Dan Persa
Taylor Martinez (it ain't pretty but he gets it done and is more dangerous)
Denard Robinson (see above)
Cousins
McGloin

Then JVB

Then

Miller
Gray
The Purdue guy
The Indiana Guy
 
BSpringsteen said:
I know that they are trying their hardest, and hate losing. I don't blame them for being put into situations where they aren't likely to be able to succeed.

Coaches do not stop knowing how to coach. Schemes do not suddenly become ineffective. These things do not change. What changes are the players.

When KF says we were not good enough to win, he's right. Problem is that is on him.

Let's go through the positions on this team and see where they would rank in the B1G in terms of effectiveness.

OL: The Hallmark of KF.


There are 60 starting OL in the B1G. I think that we have 2 OL that rank in the top 30. Of those 2, we are anchored by someone whose head is already in the NFL or clearly is not good enough to play in the NFL.

QB:


There are 12 starting QB's in the B1G. I would draft ours 8th or 9th. Statistics can lie a lot of times. Stanzi didn't have a great statistical year in 09, and did in 10. Records would not have indicated that. Our QB play has been mediocre.

RB:

Of the 16 or so RB's that get significant time, I would rank our starting RB 3rd or 4th. Top 25%, not bad at all.

WR:

This is where it gets tricky. Of the 24 starting WR, one would rank in the top 6, and the other would rank in the top 15. Average out to top 50% as a starting unit.

However, there IS NOT another WR on this team who is a legitimate B1G player RIGHT NOW. The drop off from 2-3 is astronomical.

TE: Another KF Hallmark

We do not have a TE on our roster that is a B1G caliber TE right now. One of them may very well turn into that, but right now we don't.

So we have a grossly overrated OL, with an ineffective QB who only really has two receiving targets and a RB that while bordering on elite doesn't give you the game breaking ability you might need with the rest of the offense as a unit.

Onto the D:

DL: NFL be gone.

The argument that we are young would be great if we weren't starting 4 SR's. Of the 48 starting DL in the B1G, we have 1 who would rank in the top 20. Another that ranks in the top 30. Of those two, they both haven't gotten better than they were two years ago. Two of them are not B1G caliber players.

LB: Of the 36 starting LB's in the B1G, I would say that we don't have 1 that is a top 18 LB. Again, they might turn into that one day, but it isn't right now.

DB: Of the 48 starting DB's in the B1G, we have 3 that would rank in the top 24 players. Two might even be in the top 18. However, when the rest of the defense looks as it does above, how are the DB's supposed to be effective.

Bottom line, the cupboard is approaching the time where we need to go to the grocery store. KF likes to go shopping for off brands that he thinks will end up tasting great when thrown into the pot. But, his track record while incredible for taking MAC level talent and putting them into the NFL, shows that most of the time, they stay MAC level talent.

We need to recruit better, end of story. Having a recruiting philosophy where you take players who are happy just to get a B1G offer is an amazing story when they end up in the NFL. Most of the time though, that does not happen.

Whatever has happened to our recruiting, it isn't good. Our scouting hasn't been good. Our development hasn't been good. And our retention has been abhorrent.
Click to expand...
Good stuff. Need your opinion. Do you think when KF had that rash of legal trouble in the 2006-2008 range when we had a few 4-5 star recruits shyed him away from trying to recruit a ton of those kinds of kids. ( Satterfield incident? Don't even remember other kid involved name but weren't they both 4-5 star kids?) maybe this is a stupid assessment, but just seemed like when KF tried to go that route he wound up with a bad batch.
 
Mcnutt is by far the best reciever in the B1G.

Vandenberg, you would draft him 8 or 9th. Out of these guys who can't throw IN THE POCKET: Martinez, Gray, Persa, The UI QB, Denard, Marve, Scheelhousse, Miller some would be better NFL quarterbacks then JVB. Uhm I don't think so.
 
I think that KF is a guy that likes players of a certain cloth.

He likes the blue collar guys and a lot of the 4-5 star players don't want to come in and work - and despite an insane amount of evidence to the contrary, they all believe they are going to play in the NFL regardless.

He has done some incredible things with players that no one else wanted, no one can take that away from him or the player.

But we play a brand of football that really relies on perfect execution, and far too often we have players seeing significant time who aren't able to consistently execute to that level.
 
You really nailed it. I couldn't agree more.

I just hope there is some talent coming up, or next year is going to be tough
 
BSpringsteen said:
I think that KF is a guy that likes players of a certain cloth.

He likes the blue collar guys and a lot of the 4-5 star players don't want to come in and work - and despite an insane amount of evidence to the contrary, they all believe they are going to play in the NFL regardless.

He has done some incredible things with players that no one else wanted, no one can take that away from him or the player.

But we play a brand of football that really relies on perfect execution, and far too often we have players seeing significant time who aren't able to consistently execute to that level.
Click to expand...
BINGO, IMO.
 
What exactly do you mean when you say "B1G caliber"? You use this term (or something close to it) when referring to all the TEs, WR depth, and two starting DL. Do you mean that all of the TEs on roster are of walk-on talent? Or that they would be better suited in FCS or Division II ? Your commentary on this puzzles me.

"We do not have a TE on our roster that is a B1G caliber TE right now".
Is this a joke? Are you telling me that CJ Fiedorowicz, Brad Herman, Ray Hamilton aren't talented enough to play in this league? If so, then you are off your rocker. Don't get me wrong, I like your argument about needing to recruit better, we do need to recruit better. But we recruited the TE position as well as any school in the nation with the signings of Ray Hamilton and CJ F in back to back years. Your logic contradicts itself.

As for the DL, they have struggled, which makes the entire D suffer. But to say that we can't even put 3 "B1G caliber" players on that unit is absurd.

The ranking of JVB is interesting, it makes me realize that I am not quite sure where I would rank him. But I do know that Mcgloin is not better than JVB. Robinson and Persa are both GREAT players, but I would honestly take JVB over both of those fragile gentlemen. Sheelhouse and Martinez wouldn't be as good as Vandenberg in Iowa's offense. Wilson and Cousins are good, but both overrated qbs, they just play on REALLY good teams. Vanderberg is not the 9th best QB in conference.

Last but not least, name 18 linebackers in this league that are better than James Morris. I don't think you can
 
BSpringsteen said:
In no particular order:

Russel Wilson
Nathan Sheelhouse
Dan Persa
Taylor Martinez (it ain't pretty but he gets it done and is more dangerous)
Denard Robinson (see above)
Cousins
McGloin

Then JVB

Then

Miller
Gray
The Purdue guy
The Indiana Guy
Click to expand...

Why do you have McGloin above, well, anyone? And I don't see how scheelhause is better than Vandenberg.
 
[/quote]Why do you have McGloin above, well, anyone? And I don't see how scheelhause is better than Vandenberg.[/QUOTE]

Lol I know I dont know why either. Especially if your looking for an nfl qb. Martinez? Really? I don't know what this guy is watching. The only one maybe is Cousins.
 
Why do you have McGloin above, well, anyone? And I don't see how scheelhause is better than Vandenberg.[/QUOTE]

Lol I know I dont know why either. Especially if your looking for an nfl qb. Martinez? Really? I don't know what this guy is watching. The only one maybe is Cousins.[/QUOTE]

If was reading that as in QB's in pick for college play. If so I can see justification for Robinson or Martinez because they offer a lot of value with their legs but McGloin really is horrible.
 
Excellent observations but the problem is - It's up to the coaches to scout, develop, educate and improve the players. This staff didn't inherit a single player on this team. Its had many years to work with a lot of the starters. its on the coaches to get them ready to play.

No they don't throw the ball but repetition in practice will tell them when and where the ball should go. The same holds true for all positions.

Just because the talent is down doesn't give the coaching staff a pass.
 
I'm sorry. The thought that JVB is the 8th or 9th best QB in the conference is the most ******* idiotic thing I've ever seen on this forum. Wait, I take that back. The thing about Olesansi averaging a double double as a true freshman was the most ******* idiotic thing I've ever seen on this forum. The though that JVB is the 8th or 9th best QB in the conference is the second most ******* idiotic thing I've ever seen on this forum.
 
BSpringsteen said:
In no particular order:

Russel Wilson
Nathan Sheelhouse
Dan Persa
Taylor Martinez (it ain't pretty but he gets it done and is more dangerous)
Denard Robinson (see above)
Cousins
McGloin

Then JVB

Then

Miller
Gray
The Purdue guy
The Indiana Guy
Click to expand...

Actually, I would add Bauserman, Colter and Siemian ahead of JVB. Well, maybe not Bauserman or Colter (due to his style), but I would take Siemian ahead of JVB right now. Siemian has been money in the limited situations in which he has played. He had a Persa-esque drive against Iowa at the end of the game, had a great strike to Ebert against Army and he went 3-4 for 67 yards against Nebraska and would have been 4-4 if not for a blatant hold on the receiver that led to a pick. Pretty freaking sad that Northwestern's third string QB is better than Iowa's first string QB if you ask me.
 
did you get oatmeal instead of malt-o-meal for breasfast, sit down and take a deep breath, Manly is more than a 3rd option at WR and as he is just a freshmen, your assesment of Vandy and Coker turns my stomach, this is just another way to call out players, these same player were used to beat Michigan & Northwestern, how'd the great Robinson and Persa do, OOOHHH SSSSNAP they lost to a inferior Vandy and Coker and such a lousy Defense, i have been unhappy with the results of this years team as anybody, but in this season the losses were mainly on the coaches, KF is waaaaaay to conservative, MSU was clearly selling out to stop the run and yet what did they do to counter this defense, it was constantly run Coker up the gut into a 8 man front, his best run came when he went outside, this head coach is to stubbern to change, so get off the kids, it is the coaches who have to put them in a position win, running up the gut on1st and 2nd down then running a play where the team needs 8 yards for a 1st down where the WR catches the ball 2 yards down field and have to run 6 yards to get the 1st, again this is on the coaches
 
Post would not have been made if our miserable talent hadn't had 3 turnovers to 0 for MSU and thier vastly superior talent and (IMO) we would then have won.

We would not have called it good coaching because we wouldn't talk about the miserable talent. Or we would have won in spite of coaching.

Or we would be just talking about the possibility of winning our division.

The argument constructs are pretty transparent.
 
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