It's official: Hyde to safety

[cabse5]

Christ Cabse5 has a lot of sand in his vagina.

Well, hfn, I'm sure you've heard the saying: the troll is in the eye of the beholder... I'm trying to suggest ways that might help Iowa be the best football team it can be - to suggest ways that might help Iowa be an elite football team. I'm not at all sure what you are trying to do.

 

[cmhawks99]

Homer - I mentioned specifically that I wasn't talking about changing the entire gameplan. **Edit - My mention of "wholesale shift in philosophy" pertained to the calls being made, not a wholesale scheme change...my apologies.**

When it comes to playing wide open, spread offenses, we play one of the most sterile defensive schemes around (just ask Dan Persa). It wouldn't be a stretch to say that planning for a guy like Denard Robinson is a deviation from the norm; however, when he gets put out of the game due to injury and his backup comes in, a guy who more fits the mold of what we're used to seeing from the teams in the B1G, it's remarkable how much success he had against our defense because I would have expected our defense to tweak ever-so-slightly more towards what we would run were we planning NW or Purdue. I really don't look at that like a MAJOR modification.

Hypothetically speaking, if we were only planning for Forcier that game (Denard Robinson didn't exist), do you really think the defensive gameplan would have looked that different than what we play vs. NW's spread or the Purdue spread? I think you would have still seen WR being covered by LB's, you would have still seen our cover 4 BBDB, and you probably would have still seen huge cushions on the outside. If anything, blitzing Forcier was not the best idea because that, too, is a departure from the norm.

I don’t know why I do this. People only believe what they want to believe but here goes yet again…last year NW scored 21 points against us and won. That was the 2nd least amount of points they scored ALL year. They scored 17 vs Purdue and lost and scored 21 vs PSU and lost….hmmm?!

The year before they scored 17 points vs us and won yet again…see a trend here. Ironically enuff NW is a team much like us and tOSU. They win a lot of ugly games; sadly they have had our number. Over the last 6 gamesvs us, they have averaged around 17 or 18 points a game….not much of a defensive problem there.

Furthermore and this is what really grinds me……watch the games, for goodness sakes!!!. We blitzed NW plenty last year and got ROASTED. The only blitz “some†Iowa fans care to remember is the one by Morris that was successful. Some even going so far as suggesting it was “freelancedâ€â€¦which shows just how hard they hold on to their presuppositions that our staff is rigid, unchanging or out of touch. They make crap up that has ZERO logical basis, yet these are the same bozos that would later say KF doesn’t like freelancers or “free spiritsâ€!!!!

Silly, stubborn, unknowledgeable fans. I watched that game very closely; time after time we were in position and did NOT make the play. When we blitzed, Persa dropped the ball over the blitzers head. That game had more to do with playing 8th, 9th and 10th Lbers and just being out of gas than it did anything else. That and some highly questionable Offensives series with a very poorly thrown ball for a pick and a very bad effort by one DJK on said ball.

I know you guys so desperately want it to be something more than it is, but it isn’t there fellas. Homer can break this game down even better than I can, and he’ll tell you we just let it slip through our fingers…..in most cases we were on the play and missed.

Chad

 

[cmhawks99]

Well, hfn, I'm sure you've heard the saying: the troll is in the eye of the beholder... I'm trying to suggest ways that might help Iowa be the best football team it can be - to suggest ways that might help Iowa be an elite football team. I'm not at all sure what you are trying to do.

Well you aren't doing so well old pal!! You have been soundly refuted at every turn by no less than 6 people.

Chad

 

[hawkfan2679]

I don’t know why I do this. People only believe what they want to believe but here goes yet again…last year NW scored 21 points against us and won. That was the 2nd least amount of points they scored ALL year. They scored 17 vs Purdue and lost and scored 21 vs PSU and lost….hmmm?!

Please tell me what you are talking about here. I said that after Robinson went out we should have tweaked our defense to something like we use when we play the NW's and Purdue's of the world...when we allow 21 points in entire games. Forcier put up 21 points in about a quarter and a half. How does your above post tie into to what I am saying there?

The year before they scored 17 points vs us and won yet again…see a trend here. Ironically enuff NW is a team much like us and tOSU. They win a lot of ugly games; sadly they have had our number. Over the last 6 gamesvs us, they have averaged around 17 or 18 points a game….not much of a defensive problem there.

Maybe you are mistaking me for someone else...my whole reasoning for posting in this thread was to get an idea of why the reason we made Forcier look so good was because we spent all week preparing for Robinson, as if we were incapable of adjusting.

Furthermore and this is what really grinds me……watch the games, for goodness sakes!!!. We blitzed NW plenty last year and got ROASTED. The only blitz “some†Iowa fans care to remember is the one by Morris that was successful. Some even going so far as suggesting it was “freelancedâ€â€¦which shows just how hard they hold on to their presuppositions that our staff is rigid, unchanging or out of touch. They make crap up that has ZERO logical basis, yet these are the same bozos that would later say KF doesn’t like freelancers or “free spiritsâ€!!!!

I know I mentioned something in my post about blitzing as well...so I'm assuming you are aiming this condescension at me. Or maybe at "some" Iowa fans...the nebulous nature of the comment leaves me uncertain.

But actually, I mentioned that blitzing was a bad idea, because when you are that deep into your roster due to injury, you've got to simplify the scheme to give your young guys the best chance to win. So when Homer mentioned that we were blitzing Forcier, I can't imagine that made it easier on the LB's because that's not in the realm of what we like to do.

Silly, stubborn, unknowledgeable fans. I watched that game very closely; time after time we were in position and did NOT make the play. When we blitzed, Persa dropped the ball over the blitzers head. That game had more to do with playing 8th, 9th and 10th Lbers and just being out of gas than it did anything else. That and some highly questionable Offensives series with a very poorly thrown ball for a pick and a very bad effort by one DJK on said ball.

I know you guys so desperately want it to be something more than it is, but it isn’t there fellas. Homer can break this game down even better than I can, and he’ll tell you we just let it slip through our fingers…..in most cases we were on the play and missed.

I SPECIFICALLY mentioned in one of my first posts that I was talking about Michigan 2010. I wasn't looking at any other games, in order to avoid confusion. I'm not talking about the NW game...yet, now that you brought it up, I agree with the paragraph above (except for the part about the silly "unknowledgeable" fans comment...you can take that BS somewhere else). I distinctly remember a play down near the goalline where we brought a ton of pressure, NW had trips to the right and ran their #3 on a corner route and #1 and #2 hitched up...Greenwood got smoked like he was standing still, Persa put it up nice and high, and we didn't have a chance. Ironically, man to man defense in an area where zone wouldn't have been a horrible idea. That game was more about offensive impotence than it was about defensive breakdown. Didn't NW have 2 drives of 80+ in the 4th quarter to win that game and our defense was on the field for something like 50 plays in the 2nd half alone?

 

[cmhawks99]

Please tell me what you are talking about here. I said that after Robinson went out we should have tweaked our defense to something like we use when we play the NW's and Purdue's of the world...when we allow 21 points in entire games. Forcier put up 21 points in about a quarter and a half. How does your above post tie into to what I am saying there?



Maybe you are mistaking me for someone else...my whole reasoning for posting in this thread was to get an idea of why the reason we made Forcier look so good was because we spent all week preparing for Robinson, as if we were incapable of adjusting.



I know I mentioned something in my post about blitzing as well...so I'm assuming you are aiming this condescension at me. Or maybe at "some" Iowa fans...the nebulous nature of the comment leaves me uncertain.

But actually, I mentioned that blitzing was a bad idea, because when you are that deep into your roster due to injury, you've got to simplify the scheme to give your young guys the best chance to win. So when Homer mentioned that we were blitzing Forcier, I can't imagine that made it easier on the LB's because that's not in the realm of what we like to do.



I SPECIFICALLY mentioned in one of my first posts that I was talking about Michigan 2010. I wasn't looking at any other games, in order to avoid confusion. I'm not talking about the NW game...yet, now that you brought it up, I agree with the paragraph above (except for the part about the silly "unknowledgeable" fans comment...you can take that BS somewhere else). I distinctly remember a play down near the goalline where we brought a ton of pressure, NW had trips to the right and ran their #3 on a corner route and #1 and #2 hitched up...Greenwood got smoked like he was standing still, Persa put it up nice and high, and we didn't have a chance. Ironically, man to man defense in an area where zone wouldn't have been a horrible idea. That game was more about offensive impotence than it was about defensive breakdown. Didn't NW have 2 drives of 80+ in the 4th quarter to win that game and our defense was on the field for something like 50 plays in the 2nd half alone?

Please forgive me, I thought you were trashing our D vs NW as well. Shame on me, I was clealry out of line there and I am sorry.

That is excatly why I stay away from these boards, I get frustrated and carried away and I was way off here on top of it.

Sorry...

Chad

 

[homerHAWKeye777]

Hypothetically speaking, if we were only planning for Forcier that game (Denard Robinson didn't exist), do you really think the defensive gameplan would have looked that different than what we play vs. NW's spread or the Purdue spread? I think you would have still seen WR being covered by LB's, you would have still seen our cover 4 BBDB, and you probably would have still seen huge cushions on the outside. If anything, blitzing Forcier was not the best idea because that, too, is a departure from the norm.

Yes, I do believe that it COULD look different ..... however, that said ... A LOT also depends on our personnel. When we have the personnel to play press coverage and more multi-DB looks ... we ALMOST ALWAYS use it against "pass-first" teams.

We've come out against Purdue before in press coverage ... and spanked them. However, we don't always have big, physical CBs like Fletcher or Godfrey.

In '08 and '09, in some respects, we had more experience in the secondary (apart from Sash being a newbie in '08) ... and it reflected in how pass-first teams fared against us.

Specifically, in '09, Northwestern musted a TOTAL of 239 yards against the Iowa D. That's TOTAL yardage. Kafka was one heck of a QB and managed to pass for 500+ yards against Auburn in a single game AND 350+ yards against Wisky in a single game. While, admittedly, he was injured when playing against Iowa ... Northwestern's pretty formidable O ended up doing NOTHING all day!

In '08, the Northwestern O admittedly mustered around 390 yards of total O ... roughly 280 of those yards being through the air. However, a few factors are pretty critical in that game. First off, Northwestern's O wouldn't have had the ball for near as much time as that had the Hawks not "gifted" the Wildcats 5 turnovers! Furthermore, A LOT of Northwestern's yardage resulted from poor tackling. Both Lane and Peterman made big plays at the start of the 2nd half ... both being the result of missed tackles. Northwestern's success in that game was MORE a result of the Iowa D making uncharacteristic mistakes.

 

[hawkfan2679]

Yes, I do believe that it COULD look different ..... however, that said ... A LOT also depends on our personnel. When we have the personnel to play press coverage and more multi-DB looks ... we ALMOST ALWAYS use it against "pass-first" teams.

We've come out against Purdue before in press coverage ... and spanked them. However, we don't always have big, physical CBs like Fletcher or Godfrey.

In '08 and '09, in some respects, we had more experience in the secondary (apart from Sash being a newbie in '08) ... and it reflected in how pass-first teams fared against us.

Specifically, in '09, Northwestern musted a TOTAL of 239 yards against the Iowa D. That's TOTAL yardage. Kafka was one heck of a QB and managed to pass for 500+ yards against Auburn in a single game AND 350+ yards against Wisky in a single game. While, admittedly, he was injured when playing against Iowa ... Northwestern's pretty formidable O ended up doing NOTHING all day!

In '08, the Northwestern O admittedly mustered around 390 yards of total O ... roughly 280 of those yards being through the air. However, a few factors are pretty critical in that game. First off, Northwestern's O wouldn't have had the ball for near as much time as that had the Hawks not "gifted" the Wildcats 5 turnovers! Furthermore, A LOT of Northwestern's yardage resulted from poor tackling. Both Lane and Peterman made big plays at the start of the 2nd half ... both being the result of missed tackles. Northwestern's success in that game was MORE a result of the Iowa D making uncharacteristic mistakes.

I don't really know how to respond because I'm not really disputing much of anything you said. I do know that back in 2007 (?) we played a much more aggressive version of our defense against Purdue and we did in fact spank them...that was with Shada at one of the CB's, who obviously wasn't known as a strong BnR type corner.

 

[Xerxes]

People only believe what they want to believe but here goes yet again…

Judging from your posts in this thread, wouldn't this statement perfectly describe you?

You seem to only believe what you think to be correct.

Just to be clear, I fully support Norm and his system, so we agree on a lot. Its worked for the last decade. I believe he's the best coach on the staff by a wide margin.

But maybe other people watch football a lot, just like you. And maybe they see the game a different way than you do.

 

[cmhawks99]

People only believe what they want to believe but here goes yet again…

Judging from your posts in this thread, wouldn't this statement perfectly describe you?

You seem to only believe what you think to be correct.

Just to be clear, I fully support Norm and his system, so we agree on a lot. Its worked for the last decade. I believe he's the best coach on the staff by a wide margin.

But maybe other people watch football a lot, just like you. And maybe they see the game a different way than you do.

They don't.....that is the obvious, old, tired comeback. When refuted they are powerless to respond. They don't see the blitzes; they don't see the changes, therefore proving they just don't see.

Yet well read folks, those who you can tell actually watch the games do see what these others "claim" isn't there at all?! So it's not hard to ascertain who isn't actually watching.

See here is the funny thing; if you float board to board you'll see the same things being said everywhere. Our fans think they are original, but on staffs that "our" fans think are brilliant, their fans are complaining. Not a lot of original thought out there friend.

So yes they do indeed see it differently, but it's because they have presuppositions and aren't interested in reality. It’s not new to football either. People see what they determine ahead of time, period. Very, very few are truly open-minded and none of us are all the time?! Me included, but because I know it is in my nature, I focus harder on attempting to do just that. Most don’t.

Chad

 

[cmhawks99]

People only believe what they want to believe but here goes yet again…

Judging from your posts in this thread, wouldn't this statement perfectly describe you?

You seem to only believe what you think to be correct.

Just to be clear, I fully support Norm and his system, so we agree on a lot. Its worked for the last decade. I believe he's the best coach on the staff by a wide margin.

But maybe other people watch football a lot, just like you. And maybe they see the game a different way than you do.

Something to add to the Norm Parker thought, yes I agree he is a great coach, but we have a lot of them. Phil Parker is one of the very best DB coaches in the biz and could honestly go and be a DC if he so chose, or even coach in the NFL! So is Soup Campbell as a WR coach.

Kaz, Wilson, Morgan, Erb all terrific coaches and quite frankly, KOK is an extension of KF and what KF wants. I've read up on KOK and his earlier stops, he is a fantastic coach and kind of a wide open wild-cat, but KF isn't so KOK takes the blame, willingly....no wonder KF loves him.

Chad

PS….Johnson has done a stellar job as recruiting coordinator as we have never had more 2-deep talent than we have now.

 

[homerHAWKeye777]

I don't really know how to respond because I'm not really disputing much of anything you said. I do know that back in 2007 (?) we played a much more aggressive version of our defense against Purdue and we did in fact spank them...that was with Shada at one of the CB's, who obviously wasn't known as a strong BnR type corner.

We spanked them in '06 ... Sims and Greene absolutely ran wild and we picked on Painter pretty bad. In '07, Painter got revenge and picked on Greenwood's inexperience and the fact that Dalton just kinda sucked (sorry, no nice way to put it). A few big pass plays were also to the WR Edds was covering ... however, in defense of Edds, those balls were thrown incredibly well by Painter. As an aside ... despite the completions to the guy he was covering ... I still remain amazed at how Edds managed to remain stride for stride (at around 250 lbs) with Purdue's "speed" WR. Even in defeat, that game really opened my eyes to Edds's cover skills.

 

[cmhawks99]

We spanked them in '06 ... Sims and Greene absolutely ran wild and we picked on Painter pretty bad. In '07, Painter got revenge and picked on Greenwood's inexperience and the fact that Dalton just kinda sucked (sorry, no nice way to put it). A few big pass plays were also to the WR Edds was covering ... however, in defense of Edds, those balls were thrown incredibly well by Painter. As an aside ... despite the completions to the guy he was covering ... I still remain amazed at how Edds managed to remain stride for stride (at around 250 lbs) with Purdue's "speed" WR. Even in defeat, that game really opened my eyes to Edds's cover skills.

Dorian Bryant, stride for stride 40 yards down field. He was a stud and Nielsen was looking like he too may be able to do that before injury. He, in my opinion is the key between a solid or great D next year. That is a very important position for Iowa's Defense.

On a corollary note assuming Edds comes back 100% healthy I predict BIG things from him next year if they have a NFL season.

Chad

 

[ICHawk24]

We spanked them in '06 ... Sims and Greene absolutely ran wild and we picked on Painter pretty bad. In '07, Painter got revenge and picked on Greenwood's inexperience and the fact that Dalton just kinda sucked (sorry, no nice way to put it). A few big pass plays were also to the WR Edds was covering ... however, in defense of Edds, those balls were thrown incredibly well by Painter. As an aside ... despite the completions to the guy he was covering ... I still remain amazed at how Edds managed to remain stride for stride (at around 250 lbs) with Purdue's "speed" WR. Even in defeat, that game really opened my eyes to Edds's cover skills.

And thats the exact kind of play that the average fan would scream how stupid it was for Edds to be covering him. Or they'd yell "turn around".

 

[cabse5]

And thats the exact kind of play that the average fan would scream how stupid it was for Edds to be covering him. Or they'd yell "turn around".

I'm not sure if you're referring to a previous post of mine.. If you are, you'd better read that post again because I was talking about the closest Iowa defenders having their backs turned to the completion in the endzone.

 

[cabse5]

That game was more about offensive impotence than it was about defensive breakdown. Didn't NW have 2 drives of 80+ in the 4th quarter to win that game and our defense was on the field for something like 50 plays in the 2nd half alone?

I really wanted to post about this. I got lost wading through all the Parker ideology. I just wanted to 'talk' to a poster who was slightly rational about how this thread has morphed.

Hawkfan, why were the two 80+ yard drives in the second half against NW the offense's fault? - you certainly seem to indicate this. Don't you think Iowa's defense can stop NW? Don't you think if Iowa's D had stopped NW more often throughout the game Iowa's strength and wind would have been more evident late in the game?
What I'm saying is: Iowa's D lost their strength and wind late in the game against NW because of the way Iowa plays D against NW. What I'm also saying is: it doesn't matter how poorly the offense does if the D is a shutdown D. That's where the saying: (great) defense wins championships comes from. It's 3 and out and rest.

 

[tm3308]

I really wanted to post about this. I got lost wading through all the Parker ideology. I just wanted to 'talk' to a poster who was slightly rational on this subject.

Hawkfan, why were the two 80+ yard drives in the second half against NW the offense's fault? - you certainly seem to indicate this. Don't you think Iowa's defense can stop NW? Don't you think if Iowa's D had stopped NW more often throughout the game Iowa's strength and wind would have been more evident late in the game?
What I'm saying is: Iowa's D lost their strength and wind late in the game against NW because of the way Iowa plays D against NW. What I'm also saying is: it doesn't matter how poorly the offense does if the D is a shutdown D. That's where the saying: (great) defense wins championships comes from. It's 3 and out and rest.

Northwestern's offensive scheme matches up very favorably against our defense. When you give up one long drive, then your offense goes 3 and out, odds are that you're going to give up another long drive. The offense provided VERY little help in that game (or the Indiana game, for that matter).

I agree that there should be some tweaks made when we play Northwestern. But to give the offense a pass when they can't even score more than 18 points is ridiculous. You can't score that little and expect the defense to always answer the bell. It's a TEAM effort, yet all the eggs consistently get put in the defense's basket when it comes to Northwestern/Indiana.

 

[cabse5]

It's a TEAM effort, yet all the eggs consistently get put in the defense's basket when it comes to Northwestern/Indiana.

You guys constantly gush about Norm's defense, yet when holes appear in Norm's defense, you want to blame other parts of the team.

I'm saying both offense and defense are to blame here. I'm having a hard time getting you guys to admit there's any more than a 'tweaking' to be done.

Anotheredit: Dude, Ferentz believes in a strong defense and a running game to milk the clock.
The D isn't strong and the clock ain't gettin' milked.

 

[tm3308]

You guys constantly gush about Norm's defense, yet when holes appear in Norm's defense, you want to blame other parts of the team.

I'm saying both offense and defense are to blame here. I'm having a hard time getting you guys to admit there's any more than a 'tweaking' to be done.

Anotheredit: Dude, Ferentz believes in a strong defense and a running game to milk the clock.
The D isn't strong and the clock ain't gettin' milked.

Again, you show that you look at one season's results and decide to make blanket statements. The defense is consistently very salty, the offense is typically pretty average. The defense can't answer the bell all the time (and they didn't this past season). The offense needs to answer it from time to time in the clutch too.

 

[hawkfan2679]

Hawkfan, why were the two 80+ yard drives in the second half against NW the offense's fault? - you certainly seem to indicate this. Don't you think Iowa's defense can stop NW? Don't you think if Iowa's D had stopped NW more often throughout the game Iowa's strength and wind would have been more evident late in the game?
What I'm saying is: Iowa's D lost their strength and wind late in the game against NW because of the way Iowa plays D against NW. What I'm also saying is: it doesn't matter how poorly the offense does if the D is a shutdown D. That's where the saying: (great) defense wins championships comes from. It's 3 and out and rest.

I don't think it's rational to say it was the offense's fault, at least not entirely. But they did very little to actually help the defense. The defense didn't get much rest from the offense during that fourth quarter...I checked the PBP and the offense ran 9 plays prior to that abomination that was our attempt at a 2 minute offense after NW had taken the lead. The play that ended our first drive of the 4th quarter was that ill-fated pass by Stanzi into coverage that got picked off and served as a boon to the NW comeback. That was after we had picked off Persa in NW's prior series, and had moved the ball into their territory.

Teams that are content to dink and dunk down the field, patiently throwing the underneath stuff time and time again, are those that consistently give us trouble. Combine that with a QB who provides the offense's running game and that type of offense really is a bad matchup for our defense. Persa completed 32 of 43 passes that day...his longest was for 21 yards. Sometimes it's painful to watch, and I got another reminder watching the Mizzou replay on BTN last night...but it's the nature of the beast. Every defense is susceptible to something...and in the B1G, where everybody on the field is an athlete, it's real tough to cover everything (stop the run, stop the short pass, stop the intermediate pass, stop the long pass, stop the running QB). For our defense, it's the patient, short spread passing game. So some of the blame has to be laid at the feet of the defense...getting off the field on 3rd down has to be a goal on every single possession.

I think I may have rambled on, then off, then back on track in responding...

 

[cabse5]

Teams that are content to dink and dunk down the field, patiently throwing the underneath stuff time and time again, are those that consistently give us trouble... Every defense is susceptible to something...and in the B1G, where everybody on the field is an athlete, it's real tough to cover everything (stop the run, stop the short pass, stop the intermediate pass, stop the long pass, stop the running QB).
.

Whether it's because of the inability to cover or stubbornness, Iowa's D is always mismatched against any opponent who effectively gets Iowa's D in one-on-one matchups.

Iowa's D needs to recruit athletes then use their speed and athleticism to combat this inability to cover one-on-one matchups.