Is college basketball that good of a product?

[ibahawkeye]

I'm a Bulls fan and Derrick Rose isn't in the top 5.QUOTE]

Really, that surprises me, I curious to know your reasons.

I just don't think it would take that long to come up with a list of better players. I'll come up with a quick one just off the top of my head:

Kobe
Lebron
Howard
Durant
Mello

 

[sportstalent]

I just don't think it would take that long to come up with a list of better players. I'll come up with a quick one just off the top of my head:

Kobe
Lebron
Howard
Durant
Mello

I can see agree and disagree with 4 of those, but I think he is better than Howard. Howard is improving, but I think Rose has more impact on a game than Howard, mabye because he controls the ball so much more.
The problem with Rose is he has to take the best PG in the NBA from Nash before he is considered elite, I think he has done that, but some may not think so. Rose has improvement to make, but his potential is unlimited and all indications are he is a worker. Do you think that being in Chicago the Jordan effect is in play at all? He isn't Jordan, so he isn't truly great? Thoughts?

 

[ibahawkeye]

I can see agree and disagree with 4 of those, but I think he is better than Howard. Howard is improving, but I think Rose has more impact on a game than Howard, mabye because he controls the ball so much more.
The problem with Rose is he has to take the best PG in the NBA from Nash before he is considered elite, I think he has done that, but some may not think so. Rose has improvement to make, but his potential is unlimited and all indications are he is a worker. Do you think that being in Chicago the Jordan effect is in play at all? He isn't Jordan, so he isn't truly great? Thoughts?

Howard has a big impact on the game. Defensively he alters shots with his blocking ability. He is the best rebounder in the game. He also clogs the middle and that is why Orlando surrounds him with 3 point shooters. There is no big guy in the game that can match up with him and thats why I belive he has a bigger impact than Rose.

I know Nash won back 2 back MVP but I think he is overrated. Mostly because of defense. I also think we are finding out this year how valuable Amare is.

Rose has the potential to be GREAT... I already consider him great (lower caps great) but I thought we were talking about who was the better player today and not of the future.

I don't think playing in Chicago and Jordan's legacy has much to do with it. I think it would be different if he was playing SG and you may see more comparisons but they are playing different positions and Jordan had a much better supporting cast.

 

[bcl20]

Don't say I haven't watched the NBA consistently in 14 years and then have opinions on it. I mean you can, but you're going to be wrong. People spew so much crap about the league and they are so wrong most of the time.

 

[sportstalent]

Howard has a big impact on the game. Defensively he alters shots with his blocking ability. He is the best rebounder in the game. He also clogs the middle and that is why Orlando surrounds him with 3 point shooters. There is no big guy in the game that can match up with him and thats why I belive he has a bigger impact than Rose.

I know Nash won back 2 back MVP but I think he is overrated. Mostly because of defense. I also think we are finding out this year how valuable Amare is.

Rose has the potential to be GREAT... I already consider him great (lower caps great) but I thought we were talking about who was the better player today and not of the future.

I don't think playing in Chicago and Jordan's legacy has much to do with it. I think it would be different if he was playing SG and you may see more comparisons but they are playing different positions and Jordan had a much better supporting cast.

Today, I think he is the best PG in the NBA and I can't disagree with your argument with Howard, you make good points.
Amare was one the the most underappreciated players in the NBA, he made some of those players on Phoenix a little better than people thought and we are seeing that today.
Also, I see your point on Jordan, makes sense not playing the same position. I guess, I was thinking about all the LeBron to Chicago and how all the comparisons with Jordan were getting thrown around. I just hope people can recognize just how good Rose is in Chicago, he is a special player, you have, so that is at least one person.

 

[bcl20]

I think they certainly have "fundamentals" in the NBA in the sense they can pass, dribble, and shoot.....at least some can shoot the ball real well. The difference is team play vs individual showboating. The NBA has a lot of ballers, but team play is not going to always be the highlight of an NBA game. That is why you will see from time to time the Europeans beating our pros in World Competitions (Europeans valuing team play). And the Europeans have shown they can be better shooters.

Soooooo wrong. The best NBA teams play as a team.

 

[tm3308]

Soooooo wrong. The best NBA teams play as a team.

The best teams do, sure. But in college, a lot of the time, the teams that don't have elite individual talent play more of a team game (see: any mid-major besides Davidson with Curry). The teams that don't have elite talent in their depth in the NBA? The one superstar ends up trying to do everything, which only perpetuates the losing.

 

[HawkeyeMike23]

I agree 100%, I cannot stand the NBA. It is boring to watch for me, yeah they are far superior athletically, but that is it, I don't think most NBA players could play in college against a zone because they can't shoot or have good enough fundamentals.
I quit watching the NBA consistently after the Sonics-Bulls finals series, it just isn't good to me. There are no real elite players in the NBA anymore as I don't believe there are any truly complete players and tell me where the heck all the "defensive stoppers" went?
There are so many things that I would rather watch than tune into the NBA, the overall skill is so poor today. I do admire the athleticism in the NBA, but that is all.
I can hardly stomach watching the finals anymore. The "great" players today couldn't hang in the NBA in the mid-80's to the mid 90's and most couldn't play at anytime before that period.

Also, nothing beats March Madness, Iowa in there or not because I have accepted the idea that Iowa will not win a National Championship in my lifetime. I love College Basketball weather Iowa is good or bad, I am just a huge fan. I love my Hawks and the Postseason is better when they are in it, but doesn't detract my love of the Tournament.

This is an embarassing post. You don't think NBA players can play against zones? First of all the vast majority of guys in the NBA did just fine against zones in college, and also NBA players are much, much better shooters than college players, it's not even close. Watch NBA guys during a shootaround, it's amazing how few shots they miss.

There are no elite NBA players? You have the greatest power forward ever and a top 10 player all time winding down their careers. You have LeBron and Durant entering their prime, plus tons of good young players, Rose, Griffin, Westbrook coming on strong. Competition wise, the NBA is as healthy as it's been since the early-mid 90's.

There are still tons of defense stoppers, and you're very mistaken if you don't think players today would be able to compete in the 80's. It would be the other way around. How many quick, 6'8" small forwards did Larry Bird face? How many strong, 6'6" guards did Magic go up against? There weren't many guys built like Dwight Howard or LeBron back them, today with more focus on weight lifting and year round training, the players are stronger and quicker than ever before.

 

[1977Hawkeye]

I agree with some that the game just isn't as good as it used to be, but I still love March Madness, whether the Hawks are part of it or not.

For me, it all ties directly to how good the Hawks have been.. So yes, my interest has tailed off quite a bit the past few years and I basically just watch the Hawks, and might catch bits and pieces of the occaisional game, but am not the hoops junkie that I used to be 10-15 years ago. Still, I'm right there in front of the tube when the NCAA tournament gets underway and soak in every minute of it. March Madness is my favorite sporting event of all time and it's not even close.

But the Big Ten kills me these days. I remember watching conference games with my parents as a kid, and if a game was in the 20's at halftime, we'd be like "Wow, what a low scoring game!" Now that's almost the norm. Argh.

I do think that all of the talent bolting for the NBA right away has watered down the college game though. When the great players would stay 4 years, or MAYBE they would leave after their junior years, there were some truly great teams. I remember how big of a deal it was when Kenny Anderson left Georgia Tech after his sophomore season. Now it's a miracle if a great player even stays that long.

Plus I think the mid-range game has totally disappeared. Watching teams jack up 3 after 3 is not really basketball IMO. The game just doesn't seem as pure as it used to be.

 

[storminspank]

HawkPL

I am from around your neck of the woods. Go Knights!

Oh sure! Hey there!
I do remember the bet, no idea on the wager, but I'll own up if it happens. haha

 

[rodg12]

I can't stand the NBA. It hasn't been good since the mid-90s.

You need to start watching again, Spank. The NBA product has improved immensely in the last 4-5 years. It was bad in the early 2000s. The young talent infusion in the last 4-5 years has changed the game.

 

[rodg12]

I can see agree and disagree with 4 of those, but I think he is better than Howard. Howard is improving, but I think Rose has more impact on a game than Howard, mabye because he controls the ball so much more.
The problem with Rose is he has to take the best PG in the NBA from Nash before he is considered elite, I think he has done that, but some may not think so. Rose has improvement to make, but his potential is unlimited and all indications are he is a worker. Do you think that being in Chicago the Jordan effect is in play at all? He isn't Jordan, so he isn't truly great? Thoughts?

Chris Paul and Deron Williams are the best PGs in the NBA.

ETA: Rose has moved himself firmly into 3rd place this year, though, with his improved outside game.

 

[HawkeyeMike23]

Chris Paul and Deron Williams are the best PGs in the NBA.

ETA: Rose has moved himself firmly into 3rd place this year, though, with his improved outside game.

Chris Paul is not the same player he was three years ago, I think it's a tough argument to claim he's playing better than Rose this season.

 

[rodg12]

Chris Paul is not the same player he was three years ago, I think it's a tough argument to claim he's playing better than Rose this season.

Paul has a better PER, better rebound rate, more assists, more steals, better TO rate, better assist rate all while having a lower usage rate. Paul's still the best PG in the game. He's not really in the discussion as 'Best Player in the Game' like he was 3 years ago, but he's still the class of the PG position. The better argument is whether Rose has now eclipsed Williams. It's getting pretty dang close. Still give the nod to Williams since he's performed at this level for a few years now, but it's a discussion worth having.

 

[HawkeyeMike23]

Paul has a better PER, better rebound rate, more assists, more steals, better TO rate, better assist rate all while having a lower usage rate. Paul's still the best PG in the game. He's not really in the discussion as 'Best Player in the Game' like he was 3 years ago, but he's still the class of the PG position. The better argument is whether Rose has now eclipsed Williams. It's getting pretty dang close. Still give the nod to Williams since he's performed at this level for a few years now, but it's a discussion worth having.

Not a fan of PER, but Paul is having a better season that I realized. Hopefully he gets out of NO and gets on a good team before it's too late. I've heard a couple NBA guys mention that Paul's knees are not in good shape, and he could have real problems soon.

 

[Iowafarmgirl]

You need to start watching again, Spank. The NBA product has improved immensely in the last 4-5 years. It was bad in the early 2000s. The young talent infusion in the last 4-5 years has changed the game.

The NBA game was bad in the early 2000's. The East had no talent, boring teams like San Antonio and Detroit were competeing for titles. There were inferior and selfish stars like Iverson, Marbury, Francis, Webber, Carter, and McGrady. The only players worth watching were Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, and Garnett.

A few things changed around 2004 and 2005. One, Steve Nash went to Phoenix, and European style ball caught on, and scores started going up. Shaq left LA, which broke up a talent monopoly and brought star power to the East. And finally, and more importantly, young talent started to emerge, like LeBron, Carmelo, Dwight, Dwayne, Chris Paul, Deron Williams, and Durant.

 

[HawkeyeMike23]

The NBA game was bad in the early 2000's. The East had no talent, boring teams like San Antonio and Detroit were competeing for titles. There were inferior and selfish stars like Iverson, Marbury, Francis, Webber, Carter, and McGrady. The only players worth watching were Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, and Garnett.

A few things changed around 2004 and 2005. One, Steve Nash went to Phoenix, and European style ball caught on, and scores started going up. Shaq left LA, which broke up a talent monopoly and brought star power to the East. And finally, and more importantly, young talent started to emerge, like LeBron, Carmelo, Dwight, Dwayne, Chris Paul, Deron Williams, and Durant.

They also changed the rules on handchecking and started clamping down on that which led to a lot more free flowing, wide open basketball.

 

[rodg12]

Not a fan of PER, but Paul is having a better season that I realized. Hopefully he gets out of NO and gets on a good team before it's too late. I've heard a couple NBA guys mention that Paul's knees are not in good shape, and he could have real problems soon.

Yeah, they removed the torn portion of his meniscus instead of repairing it. Got him back quicker, but could lead to more problems down the road.

 

[sportstalent]

The NBA game was bad in the early 2000's. The East had no talent, boring teams like San Antonio and Detroit were competeing for titles. There were inferior and selfish stars like Iverson, Marbury, Francis, Webber, Carter, and McGrady. The only players worth watching were Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, and Garnett.

A few things changed around 2004 and 2005. One, Steve Nash went to Phoenix, and European style ball caught on, and scores started going up. Shaq left LA, which broke up a talent monopoly and brought star power to the East. And finally, and more importantly, young talent started to emerge, like LeBron, Carmelo, Dwight, Dwayne, Chris Paul, Deron Williams, and Durant.

This kinda sums it up, when all the high school players who thought they were as good as Garnett/Kobe. There was a huge talent dropoff, Shaq/Kobe/Duncan/Garnett are the elite players of their time and they came in when the NBA was still good, but I think the influx of the high schoolers and drafting on potential hurt the NBA and turned me off. With the young stars of today there is still a gap between the Duncan-era to the LeBron-era. Overall, the league does appear better, but I still prefer the college game much, much more. The competitiveness still doesn't appear to be there all the time when there are multiple sub .500 teams continuing to make the playoffs, that trend is going down.

 

[Iowafarmgirl]

Overall, the league does appear better, but I still prefer the college game much, much more. The competitiveness still doesn't appear to be there all the time when there are multiple sub .500 teams continuing to make the playoffs, that trend is going down.

Last year only one team made the playoffs with a sub .500 record, and in the West, all 8 teams won 50 games. The NBA has almost never been as competitive as it is now.

Honestly, if you have a problem with mediocre teams making the playoffs with the NBA, how can you be a big fan of college, when it is routine for 5th place teams to be rewarded with tournament births and 30 tournament spaces are given to teams who have no business being there.