Interesting Comments from Clemmons on Dickerson

[InGoodCo]

You should read hawkeyemike23's post over and over until it makes sense. If Fran decides TD is better than MG, we will be a better team then if Fran decides TD is worse than MG.

No doubt, and that's pretty simple logic and something I have no issues understanding. What I don't understand is the need to bury a good player for someone who hasn't played a minute of D1 basketball. MG is good enough to start at PG for almost any D1 school in the country and he's a junior who hasn't even flirted with his ceiling yet and is on pace with some of the better PG's to play at Iowa. Why the constant need to replace guys who are 2 years into their career and maturing into quality players? It's human nature I guess, but I for one am more excited about MG's potential as a Junior.

 

[tm3308]

No doubt, and that's pretty simple logic and something I have no issues understanding. What I don't understand is the need to bury a good player for someone who hasn't played a minute of D1 basketball. MG is good enough to start at PG for almost any D1 school in the country and he's a junior who hasn't even flirted with his ceiling yet and is on pace with some of the better PG's to play at Iowa. Why the constant need to replace guys who are 2 years into their career and maturing into quality players? It's human nature I guess, but I for one am more excited about MG's potential as a Junior.

It's very simple, and it doesn't mean people are "burying" Gesell and Sapp. The best case scenario is that our newcomer is better than what we already have at PG. That doesn't make MG a bad player. We know what he is, and he's a solid player. The best case is that we can do even better than that.

 

[InGoodCo]

Best case Uhl is the next Lebron too. Ok, I get it. Fun. I didn't realize everyone was slating him in the starting spot based on Rainbow Brite Land.

Best case Uthoff gains 45 lbs

Best case Whitey hits mid range jumpers and 3 pointers at an amazing clip next season

The real best case is MG continues to progress and we have two or 3 quality players capable of handling the point for Iowa. Most people are expecting an immediate upgrade and impact at PG from a guy who barely had any D1 offers coming out of HS and has only played in JC thus far. Pretty tall order, but i guess it would be "best case"

 

[BryceC]

MG is good enough to start at PG for almost any D1 school in the country

Some people might be overhyping Dickerson and underestimating Gessell. He can be a good player. But let's not blow his abilities out of proportion either. It could be legitimately argued he was a bottom 25% starting Big 10 PG last year. He absolutely would not start at a large number of high major schools. He's a career 32% 3pt shooter, he struggles to finish at the rim, and his best skill is taking care of the ball. After getting a shot blocked I think in the TN game the announcers were sort of chuckling and talking about that isn't his game.

Gessell is average at best so far IMO for a starting major conference player. Some better shooting which is a skill I think he can develop could pretty easily turn him into a pretty good player. However people that are putting Dickerson ahead of are not taking an Andre Woolridge player out of the lineup. If this were baseball I would grade him replacement level. Fans would be looking for a trade to upgrade for a pennant run at this point and I think that's precisely what we are seeing on boards this offseason.

 

[InGoodCo]

I know I am fighting a losing battle here cause he's already been written off as "average" by his sophomore year, but let's take a look. Again - MG led the league in assist to turnover ratio margin by A LOT. A pretty good stat for a PG to do.

assists

1.	Frazier, Tim-PSU	SR	34	182	5.4
2.	Craft, Aaron-OSU	SR	35	164	4.7
3.	Appling, Keith-MSU	SR	35	156	4.5
4.	Mathieu, DeAndre-MINN	JR	38	160	4.2
5.	Jackson, Traevon-WIS	JR	38	151	4.0
6.	Ferrell,Kevin (Yogi)-IND	SO	32	125	3.9
7.	Gesell, Mike-IOWA	SO	33	128	3.9

Notice something about everyone on that list besides Mike and Ferrell? They are all upper class men and Ferrell is largely regarded as one of the better guards in the B1G


Steals

1.	Craft, Aaron-OSU	SR	35	89	2.5
2.	Scott, Shannon-OSU	JR	35	71	2.0
3.	Hollins, Austin-MINN	SR	38	75	2.0
4.	Marble, Roy Devyn-IOWA	SR	33	60	1.8
5.	Harris, Gary-MSU	SO	35	63	1.8
6.	Rice, Rayvonte-ILL	JR	35	58	1.7
7.	Mathieu, DeAndre-MINN	JR	38	60	1.6
8.	Frazier, Tim-PSU	SR	34	53	1.6
9.	Gesell, Mike-IOWA	SO	33	43	1.3

Notice anything on that list besides that cat that went to the NBA early? All upper class men

He's only played 2 seasons folks, and he's one of the better PG's in one of the best leagues in the country. I didn't say he would start at most high majors, I said he was good enough to. He is.

 

[Tierney]

I know I am fighting a losing battle here cause he's already been written off as "average" by his sophomore year, but let's take a look. Again - MG led the league in assist to turnover ratio margin by A LOT. A pretty good stat for a PG to do.

assists

1.	Frazier, Tim-PSU	SR	34	182	5.4
2.	Craft, Aaron-OSU	SR	35	164	4.7
3.	Appling, Keith-MSU	SR	35	156	4.5
4.	Mathieu, DeAndre-MINN	JR	38	160	4.2
5.	Jackson, Traevon-WIS	JR	38	151	4.0
6.	Ferrell,Kevin (Yogi)-IND	SO	32	125	3.9
7.	Gesell, Mike-IOWA	SO	33	128	3.9

Notice something about everyone on that list besides Mike and Ferrell? They are all upper class men and Ferrell is largely regarded as one of the better guards in the B1G


Steals

1.	Craft, Aaron-OSU	SR	35	89	2.5
2.	Scott, Shannon-OSU	JR	35	71	2.0
3.	Hollins, Austin-MINN	SR	38	75	2.0
4.	Marble, Roy Devyn-IOWA	SR	33	60	1.8
5.	Harris, Gary-MSU	SO	35	63	1.8
6.	Rice, Rayvonte-ILL	JR	35	58	1.7
7.	Mathieu, DeAndre-MINN	JR	38	60	1.6
8.	Frazier, Tim-PSU	SR	34	53	1.6
9.	Gesell, Mike-IOWA	SO	33	43	1.3

Notice anything on that list besides that cat that went to the NBA early? All upper class men

He's only played 2 seasons folks, and he's one of the better PG's in one of the best leagues in the country. I didn't say he would start at most high majors, I said he was good enough to. He is.

Both Gesell and Clemmons are gifted players, and now there bodies have matured and they have experience. Iowa is going to be a very experienced team this year. They should be tough to beat. Woodbury looks like he has matured a lot from this time last year.

 

[InGoodCo]

Some people might be overhyping Dickerson and underestimating Gessell. He can be a good player. But let's not blow his abilities out of proportion either. It could be legitimately argued he was a bottom 25% starting Big 10 PG last year. He absolutely would not start at a large number of high major schools. He's a career 32% 3pt shooter, he struggles to finish at the rim, and his best skill is taking care of the ball. After getting a shot blocked I think in the TN game the announcers were sort of chuckling and talking about that isn't his game.

Gessell is average at best so far IMO for a starting major conference player. Some better shooting which is a skill I think he can develop could pretty easily turn him into a pretty good player. However people that are putting Dickerson ahead of are not taking an Andre Woolridge player out of the lineup. If this were baseball I would grade him replacement level. Fans would be looking for a trade to upgrade for a pennant run at this point and I think that's precisely what we are seeing on boards this offseason.

No, statistically speaking - they are taking a Jeff Horner/Dean Oliver type player out of the lineup. Mike hasn't been the scorer those two were by their sophomore years, but he doesn't log near the minutes either.

 

[tm3308]

I know I am fighting a losing battle here cause he's already been written off as "average" by his sophomore year, but let's take a look. Again - MG led the league in assist to turnover ratio margin by A LOT. A pretty good stat for a PG to do.

assists

1.	Frazier, Tim-PSU	SR	34	182	5.4
2.	Craft, Aaron-OSU	SR	35	164	4.7
3.	Appling, Keith-MSU	SR	35	156	4.5
4.	Mathieu, DeAndre-MINN	JR	38	160	4.2
5.	Jackson, Traevon-WIS	JR	38	151	4.0
6.	Ferrell,Kevin (Yogi)-IND	SO	32	125	3.9
7.	Gesell, Mike-IOWA	SO	33	128	3.9

Notice something about everyone on that list besides Mike and Ferrell? They are all upper class men and Ferrell is largely regarded as one of the better guards in the B1G


Steals

1.	Craft, Aaron-OSU	SR	35	89	2.5
2.	Scott, Shannon-OSU	JR	35	71	2.0
3.	Hollins, Austin-MINN	SR	38	75	2.0
4.	Marble, Roy Devyn-IOWA	SR	33	60	1.8
5.	Harris, Gary-MSU	SO	35	63	1.8
6.	Rice, Rayvonte-ILL	JR	35	58	1.7
7.	Mathieu, DeAndre-MINN	JR	38	60	1.6
8.	Frazier, Tim-PSU	SR	34	53	1.6
9.	Gesell, Mike-IOWA	SO	33	43	1.3

Notice anything on that list besides that cat that went to the NBA early? All upper class men

He's only played 2 seasons folks, and he's one of the better PG's in one of the best leagues in the country. I didn't say he would start at most high majors, I said he was good enough to. He is.

A guy can have a really nice A/TO ratio by being too cautious, which MG was absolutely guilty of at times. For example, look at the top guys in the NBA in A/TO. Chris Paul tops the list, but then among the rest of the top 10, only a couple guys would be considered among the 10 best PG's in the league. Good point guards take care of the ball and distribute it. Great point guards can make even better plays, and therefore take greater risks at times. That can hurt their A/TO.

Paul is the exception to that, but there's a reason he's the best PG the game has seen in the last 15 years.

 

[BryceC]

Again - MG led the league in assist to turnover ratio margin by A LOT. A pretty good stat for a PG to do.

ISU's true freshman Monte Morris broke the NCAA record by more than a half point for assist to turnover ratio. He wasn't in the top half of the Big 12 for PG's last year. You can't just isolate one stat and make broad statements.

If you look at the NBA efficiency stat, which not perfect, but attempts to measure a good cross section of stats, it breaks down like this:

(PTS + REB + AST + STL + BLK − Missed FG − Missed FT − TO) / GP

Gesell was # 1268 in the NCAA last year in that stat.

http://www.teamrankings.com/ncaa-basketball/player/mike-gesell/stats

Derrick Walton was #960 for an example. I could go back and run the formula on Horner and oliver but I doubt you'd find either of them with scores as low as 285 there.

 

[InGoodCo]

I just wish people would admit that they just want the other guy cause he's not the guy we have sometimes.... It's hard to enjoy the players you have. I for one am pretty excited about this years teams as is without the addition of the new players. I am also very excited about the new players but trust me, by the end of the year this site will all be replacing TD with the next guy cause he's not the guy we have even though TD will have plenty of eligibility left.

 

[InGoodCo]

"You can't just isolate one stat and make broad statements"

i didn't???

 

[SpecialKHawk]

"You can't just isolate one stat and make broad statements"

i didn't???

I think you and others are using one stat to justify a player. He is a very solid player and may turn out to be the best option but many of us know we need more from the PG position and if TD shows this ability he will be playing a lot and we will be better.

How many games close games last season in the last minute did MG create a good shot for someone else in the half court off of the bounce or finish at the rim on a drive? I do not remember too many if any but there is not a stat for that other than close losses. We did not lose games strictly because of MG but we are saying we need another dynamic at the point. That is the point.

Finally ask yourself why would Fran recruit Ulis and then TD if everything was great at PG? Especially a juco PG? These guys were not brought in to see 10 mins a game or less. Complete waste of a scholly given we already have 2 other guys. It is a message about needing more from the PG play. It is game ability not an experience factor thing.

 

[BryceC]

My point isn't that people should not like gesell or root against him. My point is that you can't say, well you can't expect TD to play at a high level because you haven't seen him play, then turn around and state MG is a high level player. So far, he has not been. I assume both are capable of it, but we haven't seen it from either one.

 

[InGoodCo]

I'm not just using one stat, but you guys are sure focusing on it.

It's ok, I'll step down to all the knowledge on this site that Mike G is a below average PG and his ship has sailed after 2 seasons and he needs replaced for Iowa to be good going forward.

&

TD has 3 years of eligibility, so don't give me the if he doesn't play right away he's a waste of a scholly BS and he has to average meaningful minutes right out the bat or why bring him in story. He has the same amount of time as Uthoff and while it would be great for him to be that missing piece and a huge contributor out of the gate, Iowa has more than enough depth at PG and he won't need to be.

 

[InGoodCo]

My point isn't that people should not like gesell or root against him. My point is that you can't say, well you can't expect TD to play at a high level because you haven't seen him play, then turn around and state MG is a high level player. So far, he has not been. I assume both are capable of it, but we haven't seen it from either one.

That's fair, I personally think Mike has been as good as advertised and I expect him to continue to progress. He's young in his career.

 

[SpecialKHawk]

My point isn't that people should not like gesell or root against him. My point is that you can't say, well you can't expect TD to play at a high level because you haven't seen him play, then turn around and state MG is a high level player. So far, he has not been. I assume both are capable of it, but we haven't seen it from either one.

I do not always agree with your posts on this and do understand why you care at all given this is not the team you root for (seems like time wasted) but I must say I agree with your posts and your comparison to the impact that Morris had in the last half of the season.

MG & Sapp are very well liked by all of us and if they give us the best chance to win so be it. We will all be happy and we will cheer them on regardless of their minutes on the court.

The point is we need something more in play from the PG and until we find that player we will have struggles in the half court. New players come into many programs and make an impact all the time. TD has that potential. There will be a learning curve and adjustment period but hopefully it will be quick.

He also needs to stay off of mopeds and away from the ICPD.

 

[UncleHawk]

Clemmons v Gesell v Dickerson


Gesell- above average quickness + superior hops for a guy his size. This allows a mid-range game and occasional drives to the hoop. This plus decent outside shooting gives him respect to allow separation for assists = 3/1 A/T ratio.

Clemmons- probably the strongest of the 3. I think on a quickness level with Gesell. Right now can't make assists or offense as well as Gesell without being given room. His strength and good quickness makes defense his biggest asset.

Dickerson= obviously the quickest of the 3. This gives him the ability to create off the dribble. Last year he was a 2/1 A/T guy and shot about as well as RDM from 3 this year. We'll see under B1G pressure, but he comes highly rated.

I agree that Gesell is a big piece of our backcourt in 2014. Over the course of the season, his stats are pretty good. However, I would interject that he appears to be fragile. We all know about his frosh year foot problems. This year, after the @PSU game, MG went 22/80 from the field. During this span he was 5/29 from 3. He ended the season on a 0/17 streak from the field. This from the guy who's been the 3rd leading minute-taker of the last 2 years on deep teams. Something was wrong with Gesell on a streak to end the season... again. I'm thinking it was probably nagging little injuries or we would have heard more about it. Whatever it was, it's starting to get consistent. People have talked about another PG being recruited because of Sapp not taking the next step. What about MG's fragility and late-season slides? Also, with RDM's departure, we need all the creating ability we can get in the rotation. Because of all this, I think TD will get lots of chances to be prominent in the rotation in some capacity. I would like to see Clemmons get more 2-guard minutes. He appears to be a streak shooter and could be effective there. Now, I'm happy we have 3 PGs. we'll be well stocked there. But I have a hard time believing TD won't play a big role of some type with what he uniquely brings to this team.

 

[hawkjunkie]

I'm not sure I really have any expectations from Dickerson, so I was a bit surprised to hear that his teammates believe external expectations are adding pressure to him.

Who has these lofty expectations for Dickerson? Any "formal" media members? Or just fans on message boards?

Let's see, he was ranked the #1 JUCO PG in the country. Not enough for you? How about being voted an All-American?

Lofty expectations are going to follow those accollades. I hope TD can do it. But AC is right tho, too much pressure.

 

[PackHawk]

Best case Uhl is the next Lebron too. Ok, I get it. Fun. I didn't realize everyone was slating him in the starting spot based on Rainbow Brite Land.

Best case Uthoff gains 45 lbs

Best case Whitey hits mid range jumpers and 3 pointers at an amazing clip next season

The real best case is MG continues to progress and we have two or 3 quality players capable of handling the point for Iowa. Most people are expecting an immediate upgrade and impact at PG from a guy who barely had any D1 offers coming out of HS and has only played in JC thus far. Pretty tall order, but i guess it would be "best case"

I can't understand why you're so defensive right now. All anyone is saying is "if player A is better than player B, the team will benefit" and you're freakin out. Chill, you're more upset than Sapp seems to be.

 

[ArvadaHawk]

Last seson, Iowa didn't have a pg who could get to the rim in half court sets, if necessary, and that largely fell to RDM on end of clock situations. That is a definciency at the pg position. MG is very good at the fast break and I think he can be a scorer. But he can't beat folks off the dribble, on his own, and that is an issue with end of clock situations. If TD and/or Sapp can do this, they play pg. If they can't, then we need someone else. If we had a pg that could have taken appling off the dribble, last season, that game would have been much different. Conversely, if we had a pg that could have kept Appling from getting to the rim...