I don't get love affair with Alford and Neal

[tweeterhawk]

I used to live in Albuquerque and briefly had Lobo season tickets (still have a Lobo shirt somewhere). 20-win seasons and post-season appearances = success in Loboland.

By that measure, Nealford has been tremendously successful: three NITs, one NCAA appearance in four years, 98-38 record overall. I think we'd certainly take it.

(And, no, I am not an Alford fan. Would have loved to have seen even half of his highly heralded recruits show up in Iowa City.)

 

[olivecourt]

Thank you. SA brought in 11 top 100 players in his stint at Iowa.

[...]

I can only hope that Iowa can get talent like either of these teams on their roster soon...right now,we are still suffering from the lick hangover.

This is my all-time gold standard favorite defense of Steve Alford. Do you honestly think you're putting him in a positive light here? Shall we review who exactly those 11 top-100 recruits were?

Glen Worley: averaged 8/4 for his career, 1x All-Big Ten HM
Jared Reiner: career averaged 6/5, topping out at 10/7 as a senior, 1x All-Big Ten HM
Pierre Pierce: averaging 18/5/4 with 3 steals as a junior, and then... 1x 3rd team All-Big Ten
Marcellus Sommerville: career average 16/7... at Bradley. Never played for Iowa.
Greg Brunner: Career average 12/8, 1x 1st team all-Big Ten, 1x 2nd team
Jeff Horner (committed during Davis era): 12/4/5 for career, 2x 3rd team all-Big Ten
Adam Haluska (transfer): 16/4/2 in 3 seasons at Iowa, 1x 1st team All-Big Ten, 1x 2nd team
Alex Thompson: averaged 2/2 in two seasons at Iowa before transferring
Tyler Smith: 15/5/3 in one season before transferring, 1x 3rd team all-Big Ten
Matt Gatens (legacy): 12/3/3, 1x all-Big Ten HM

So out of 10 top-100 recruits (not sure who your #11 is), we get 6 guys who actually complete their eligibility at Iowa, three of whom were not really recruited in the traditional sense (Horner, Haluska, Gatens). Of those 6, three are successes (Horner, Haluska, Brunner), one is average (Gatens), and two are flops (Reiner and Worley). There's a grand total of two first-team all-Big Ten selections in that group (Tom Davis had four first-teamers in his last four years alone).

The other four... one never plays at Iowa (Sommerville), one might as well not have (Thompson), one plays there for a year (Smith), and one cripples the entire program (Pierce).

So if your definition of being a great recruiter is bringing in guys who are ranked high on a fairly arbitrary list and having two-thirds of them flop or transfer while "landing" two guys who wanted to play for the Hawks since they were 10, then yes, Alford was a great recruiter.

 

[ajbrand33]

this thread is oozing with hypocrisy, the original poster didnt intend to make this a thread about how we cant let go of anything alford related but in his second post he did just that, validating the "some people cant let it go" post

 

[olivecourt]

I used to live in Albuquerque and briefly had Lobo season tickets (still have a Lobo shirt somewhere). 20-win seasons and post-season appearances = success in Loboland.

By that measure, Nealford has been tremendously successful: three NITs, one NCAA appearance in four years, 98-38 record overall. I think we'd certainly take it.

(And, no, I am not an Alford fan. Would have loved to have seen even half of his highly heralded recruits show up in Iowa City.)

It's successful, but it's not unprecedented. When Alford took over the Lobos were only three years out from a 26-7 season. From 1988-99 under Dave Bliss, they went to 7 NCAA tourneys. My only point is that Alford definitely turned around a struggling team (8th in the MWC the season before he got there), but New Mexico has long had a strong program. They've never been Northwestern. You cite 20-win seasons as the metric for success, but they had 12 of those in the 20 years before Alford walked in the door.

 

[JHHawk]

This is my all-time gold standard favorite defense of Steve Alford. Do you honestly think you're putting him in a positive light here? Shall we review who exactly those 11 top-100 recruits were?

Glen Worley: averaged 8/4 for his career, 1x All-Big Ten HM
Jared Reiner: career averaged 6/5, topping out at 10/7 as a senior, 1x All-Big Ten HM
Pierre Pierce: averaging 18/5/4 with 3 steals as a junior, and then... 1x 3rd team All-Big Ten
Marcellus Sommerville: career average 16/7... at Bradley. Never played for Iowa.
Greg Brunner: Career average 12/8, 1x 1st team all-Big Ten, 1x 2nd team
Jeff Horner (committed during Davis era): 12/4/5 for career, 2x 3rd team all-Big Ten
Adam Haluska (transfer): 16/4/2 in 3 seasons at Iowa, 1x 1st team All-Big Ten, 1x 2nd team
Alex Thompson: averaged 2/2 in two seasons at Iowa before transferring
Tyler Smith: 15/5/3 in one season before transferring, 1x 3rd team all-Big Ten
Matt Gatens (legacy): 12/3/3, 1x all-Big Ten HM

So out of 10 top-100 recruits (not sure who your #11 is), we get 6 guys who actually complete their eligibility at Iowa, three of whom were not really recruited in the traditional sense (Horner, Haluska, Gatens). Of those 6, three are successes (Horner, Haluska, Brunner), one is average (Gatens), and two are flops (Reiner and Worley). There's a grand total of two first-team all-Big Ten selections in that group (Tom Davis had four first-teamers in his last four years alone).

The other four... one never plays at Iowa (Sommerville), one might as well not have (Thompson), one plays there for a year (Smith), and one cripples the entire program (Pierce).

So if your definition of being a great recruiter is bringing in guys who are ranked high on a fairly arbitrary list and having two-thirds of them flop or transfer while "landing" two guys who wanted to play for the Hawks since they were 10, then yes, Alford was a great recruiter.

The 11th guy is Luke Recker,a transfer.
Who were the 4 1st team all conference guys in Dr Toms last 4 years?
Andre Woolridge(transfer in from Neb) and Ryan Bowen...who else?

Reiner was not a flop,he was injured his junior and senior seasons,when he was one of the better centers in the league. Still playing pro ball.
Worley did not live up to his ranking,but still had some solid play at Iowa.
PP was a very talented player on the court,who messed up off the court....does not mean he was not a good player(a pro in France).
Horner committed to SA in his frosh year and had a very good career.
Sommerville also had a good career...at Bradley...hey, never said SA did not have issues,like player retention,only that he recruited ok.
Dairese Gary was committed to Iowa,not top 100 but has turned out to be a top 3 pg in NM bb history,as indicated by his stats shown last nite on ESPN during the NIT game.
Alex Thompson.....give ya that one...kid was overrated.
Tyler Smith....best frosh at Iowa since Ricky Davis.
Matt Gatens...solid,but unspectacular.

Look, recruiting to Iowa has always been tough,no doubt about it. How many out of state star players did Mr. Davis lure here even when Iowa was flying high?
As Jon mentioned in a post, only George Raveling has really done well recruiting out of state stars since Lute left...
When SA arrived the clamor to keep Worley from going to KU or MSU was loud and persistent...if he had declined to recruit him,fans would have gone nuts. Same with Gatens. You do not turn away local top 100 players at Iowa...maybe that is a vice,but it is there.
The only two Big Ten trophies we have won since 1979 are due in large part to some of these busts you cite. When will Iowa win another?

 

[Cydkar]

I'm not sure how you think that Alford gets ESPN love unless you actually watch a New Mexico game. They don't talk about him any other time. Don't watch...problem solved.

 

[olivecourt]

Woolridge was a 2x first-team selection; Ryan Bowen and Jess Settles were the others. If you want to compare across similar eras, Alford had one all-BTT 1st team selection in his 8 years here; Davis had five in his last eight years (Acie Earl was first-team in '93).

Ah yes, who could forget the fabulous 53 games of the Luke Recker era? He was third-team all-BT his senior year, which puts him on the same level as Chauncey Leslie.

To define Jared Reiner as anything other than a bust really strains credibility. I'm happy that the guy is still playing and sorry that he got injured, but the fact remains that he averaged 6 and 5 for his career. Just for some perspective on those numbers, Melsahn was at 11/7 as a true freshman. Ditto Worley, who was a top-30 recruit and couldn't even make 3rd-team all-BT. And yes, I would argue that PP was not a good player for Iowa, considering that he helped send the program into its current death spiral.

You can't question Horner, Brunner, and Haluska (although as I indicated it's not like Alford had much hand in getting Horner's commitment). Great recruits and great players. 3-for-11 doesn't really do it, though, especially in the Big Ten. I would so much rather have brought in lower-ranked guys who a) got better from year to year and b) actually might have played for Iowa for four years.

 

[HawkeyeMike23]

Woolridge was a 2x first-team selection; Ryan Bowen and Jess Settles were the others. If you want to compare across similar eras, Alford had one all-BTT 1st team selection in his 8 years here; Davis had five in his last eight years (Acie Earl was first-team in '93).

Ah yes, who could forget the fabulous 53 games of the Luke Recker era? He was third-team all-BT his senior year, which puts him on the same level as Chauncey Leslie.

To define Jared Reiner as anything other than a bust really strains credibility. I'm happy that the guy is still playing and sorry that he got injured, but the fact remains that he averaged 6 and 5 for his career. Just for some perspective on those numbers, Melsahn was at 11/7 as a true freshman. Ditto Worley, who was a top-30 recruit and couldn't even make 3rd-team all-BT. And yes, I would argue that PP was not a good player for Iowa, considering that he helped send the program into its current death spiral.

You can't question Horner, Brunner, and Haluska (although as I indicated it's not like Alford had much hand in getting Horner's commitment). Great recruits and great players. 3-for-11 doesn't really do it, though, especially in the Big Ten. I would so much rather have brought in lower-ranked guys who a) got better from year to year and b) actually might have played for Iowa for four years.

Using your criteria Settles and Bowen don't count as guys Davis had to recruit, they were going to come to Iowa anyway. And Woolridge was a transfer, so really Davis only recruited one guy (Acie Earl) who was first team all B10 in his last eight years here.

 

[burky247]

Woolridge was a 2x first-team selection; Ryan Bowen and Jess Settles were the others. If you want to compare across similar eras, Alford had one all-BTT 1st team selection in his 8 years here; Davis had five in his last eight years (Acie Earl was first-team in '93).

Ah yes, who could forget the fabulous 53 games of the Luke Recker era? He was third-team all-BT his senior year, which puts him on the same level as Chauncey Leslie.

To define Jared Reiner as anything other than a bust really strains credibility. I'm happy that the guy is still playing and sorry that he got injured, but the fact remains that he averaged 6 and 5 for his career. Just for some perspective on those numbers, Melsahn was at 11/7 as a true freshman. Ditto Worley, who was a top-30 recruit and couldn't even make 3rd-team all-BT. And yes, I would argue that PP was not a good player for Iowa, considering that he helped send the program into its current death spiral.

You can't question Horner, Brunner, and Haluska (although as I indicated it's not like Alford had much hand in getting Horner's commitment). Great recruits and great players. 3-for-11 doesn't really do it, though, especially in the Big Ten. I would so much rather have brought in lower-ranked guys who a) got better from year to year and b) actually might have played for Iowa for four years.

Olive, are you talking recruiting or development? Because you seem to be toeing the line for sure.

 

[blkngoldUofI]

I'm not sure how you think that Alford gets ESPN love unless you actually watch a New Mexico game. They don't talk about him any other time. Don't watch...problem solved.

Kinda like ISU FB!

If Noodles wasn't so important to SA they wouldn't pay the guy some good coin to stay. Watch a NM game, Neal is the coach that does the coaching and calls most of their set plays. If NM fans are happy with what they have then that is why they are a mid major. They couldn't do what they do in the Big 10, Big 12, Big East, SEC or ACC.

 

[HawkeyesWin]

The media types settle on a story line and don't let go. Remember hearing how if Eric May is on then Iowa is on long after May came out of the starting lineup. Have hope, they don't really know if SA is a good coach or not, they are just reading a ****** so to speak.

 

[olivecourt]

Olive, are you talking recruiting or development? Because you seem to be toeing the line for sure.

I'm talking about results. If you can recruit players, but can't develop them, then who cares? To guys who want to point out what a great recruiter SA was, I think it's worth pointing out how the percentages in terms of how many of his guys actually made it-- to campus, to the court, to all-Big Ten teams, to their senior years. What good is a top-100 guy who either can't play or plays somewhere else? What line of BS was Alford selling these guys, how did it match up with their experience when they actually got here, and how did that contribute to players transferring and/or under-performing?

We're never going to know the specific answers to the those questions. So if we're trying to figure who actually brought talent to campus, I say throw out the rankings, forget who was in-state, who was out of state, who committed when, etc. Which players made an impact on the Big Ten during their careers, preferably for multiple seasons? You can make all the excuses in the world for SA, but the reality is that in 8 years he produce two first-team all-BT selections (Brunner and Haluska) and three second-team all-BT selections (Brunner and Reggie Evans x2). In Davis's last eight years (which included his most mediocre stretch), he produced five first-team picks and four second-team picks (Earl x2, James Winters, Chris Kingsbury). You tell me who brought more impact players to campus.

 

[JHHawk]

I'm talking about results. If you can recruit players, but can't develop them, then who cares? To guys who want to point out what a great recruiter SA was, I think it's worth pointing out how the percentages in terms of how many of his guys actually made it-- to campus, to the court, to all-Big Ten teams, to their senior years. What good is a top-100 guy who either can't play or plays somewhere else? What line of BS was Alford selling these guys, how did it match up with their experience when they actually got here, and how did that contribute to players transferring and/or under-performing?

We're never going to know the specific answers to the those questions. So if we're trying to figure who actually brought talent to campus, I say throw out the rankings, forget who was in-state, who was out of state, who committed when, etc. Which players made an impact on the Big Ten during their careers, preferably for multiple seasons? You can make all the excuses in the world for SA, but the reality is that in 8 years he produce two first-team all-BT selections (Brunner and Haluska) and three second-team all-BT selections (Brunner and Reggie Evans x2). In Davis's last eight years (which included his most mediocre stretch), he produced five first-team picks and four second-team picks (Earl x2, James Winters, Chris Kingsbury). You tell me who brought more impact players to campus.

You are the one who went off on a tangent comparing Mr. Davis's recruiting to SA's. This was touched off by some fans,like myself,saying that SA had improved by the time he was at the end of his run at Iowa,and citing his recruiting record at Iowa,and suddenly it becomes a Mr. Davis vs SA thread.
Why? In the same post, I indicated that he had plenty of issues at Iowa,including off court issues with players. No one said he was the greatest coach evah,only that he had done a decent job at NM...at least according to their fans. When Iowa has had the 4 worst records in program history in a row, just a winning record looks like nirvana. Hammer SA all you want,but he has had 11 straight winning seasons between Iowa and NM. I know,we dont need no stinkin winning seasons here at Iowa,we are better than that....waiting for Sioux to comment...

 

[hawkIhoops]

I could be overlooking some key guys, but I can't recall a top 10 recruiting class under Alford. There were some guys rumored to be coming that never cleared academic hoops. Was this to be his last class with Kelly, Peterson and Gary? Gary was never academically eligible, so he wasn't going to be on the squad regardless.

I remember he had Somerville for a season as a red shirt or something like that, but he never played. I probably have selective memory, but the only good players beyond Haluska, Brunner and Horner that are coming to mind are Evans, Leslie, Johnson, Thomas, maybe Gorney and Loobey.

 

[olivecourt]

You are the one who went off on a tangent comparing Mr. Davis's recruiting to SA's. This was touched off by some fans,like myself,saying that SA had improved by the time he was at the end of his run at Iowa,and citing his recruiting record at Iowa,and suddenly it becomes a Mr. Davis vs SA thread.
Why? In the same post, I indicated that he had plenty of issues at Iowa,including off court issues with players. No one said he was the greatest coach evah,only that he had done a decent job at NM...at least according to their fans. When Iowa has had the 4 worst records in program history in a row, just a winning record looks like nirvana. Hammer SA all you want,but he has had 11 straight winning seasons between Iowa and NM. I know,we dont need no stinkin winning seasons here at Iowa,we are better than that....waiting for Sioux to comment...

If anything, SA's recruiting record shows that he regressed while he was here, because his best-ranked class was in 2000.

I only look at Tom Davis's legacy for some perspective. Sure, if you want to compare Alford to Lickliter, he looks like a recruiting guru. But Todd Lickliter might go down in history as one of the worst major college recruiters ever. Tom Davis was savaged for being unable to recruit, and yet he turned out quite a few more players who had a significant impact on the Big Ten then Alford ever did. And anyone who cites the "11 top-100 players" stat without acknowledging that one of those guys was Marcellus Somerville and another was Alex Thompson... I just don't know what to say about that.

All I'm doing is beating a dead horse, but I just can't stand the revisionist history when it comes to Alford. You can look at it any way you want: recruiting, player retention, success on the court, post-season play, etc. The fact is, from a historical perspective, Steve Alford not only didn't take Iowa to the next level, he was worse than his immediate predecessor.

 

[JHHawk]

If anything, SA's recruiting record shows that he regressed while he was here, because his best-ranked class was in 2000.

I only look at Tom Davis's legacy for some perspective. Sure, if you want to compare Alford to Lickliter, he looks like a recruiting guru. But Todd Lickliter might go down in history as one of the worst major college recruiters ever. Tom Davis was savaged for being unable to recruit, and yet he turned out quite a few more players who had a significant impact on the Big Ten then Alford ever did. And anyone who cites the "11 top-100 players" stat without acknowledging that one of those guys was Marcellus Somerville and another was Alex Thompson... I just don't know what to say about that.

All I'm doing is beating a dead horse, but I just can't stand the revisionist history when it comes to Alford. You can look at it any way you want: recruiting, player retention, success on the court, post-season play, etc. The fact is, from a historical perspective, Steve Alford not only didn't take Iowa to the next level, he was worse than his immediate predecessor.

Again,show me anywhere on this thread where anyone argued against that point. Revisionist history suggests that someone changed the facts. I believe that the facts cited were accurate on his recruiting record.
We are all frustrated at where we find the iowa bb program right now,so I guess it is natural to beat the horse...lets hope Fran can help us all forget the recent past,eh?

 

[DeputyHawk]

Alford's heart wasn't in it from the start when he came to Iowa. It was a bad hire all together. I do think he can coach and really think if he lands back at Indiana he will have them at the top again.
I just wish his heart could have been with Iowa.

 

[HawkeyeMike23]

If anything, SA's recruiting record shows that he regressed while he was here, because his best-ranked class was in 2000.

I only look at Tom Davis's legacy for some perspective. Sure, if you want to compare Alford to Lickliter, he looks like a recruiting guru. But Todd Lickliter might go down in history as one of the worst major college recruiters ever. Tom Davis was savaged for being unable to recruit, and yet he turned out quite a few more players who had a significant impact on the Big Ten then Alford ever did. And anyone who cites the "11 top-100 players" stat without acknowledging that one of those guys was Marcellus Somerville and another was Alex Thompson... I just don't know what to say about that.

All I'm doing is beating a dead horse, but I just can't stand the revisionist history when it comes to Alford. You can look at it any way you want: recruiting, player retention, success on the court, post-season play, etc. The fact is, from a historical perspective, Steve Alford not only didn't take Iowa to the next level, he was worse than his immediate predecessor.

Wow, you're arguing against points no one is making. No one here is making revisionist history except you, you're obviously biased against Alford and are changing your argument constantly.

I look at Alford's career at Iowa in three different chunks.

Part 1: 99-02 14-16, 23-12, 19-16 - came in with a lot of hype was the hot coaching hire, had a decent first year without much returning talent, brought in what was rated a top ten recruiting class plus Luke Recker and Ryan Hogan. Had a solid second year, even though they trailed off at the end of the season, still made the NCAAs won a first round game before they lost to Kentucky. Next year started as top ten team, but he lost the team as the season went on it became Evans and Recker and everyone else was playing by different rules, made the NIT.

Part 2: 02-until Pierce was kicked off for good in 05. 17-14, 16-13 15-5* - Alford struggled during this part of his career, lots of underachieving teams, teams starting off strong and fading down the stretch and the whole Pierre Pierce debacle.

Part 3: After Pierce was booted in '05-07, 6-7*, 25-9, 17-14, I think this is where Alford really came on as a coach, 2 NCAA berths, a terrific 05-06 season, then his best coaching job in his last season, leading a team which lost four of its top six players to a 4th place finish in the B10. Thought he was not only a much better in game coach, but also was becoming a better recruiter, we were starting to see the recruiting pay off with guys like Tyler Smith and Dairese Gary, and I really think he was on his way to being a good coach.

No one except you is comparing him to Tom Davis, he made a lot of mistakes while at Iowa, but if we could have late '05 Alford on, I would take him in a second.

 

[comeaftermeIm40]

That's why I don't read the ESPN guys because it's garbage and the editor that let that out is garbage! Enjoy mediocrity NM.

 

[sioux34]

You are the one who went off on a tangent comparing Mr. Davis's recruiting to SA's. This was touched off by some fans,like myself,saying that SA had improved by the time he was at the end of his run at Iowa,and citing his recruiting record at Iowa,and suddenly it becomes a Mr. Davis vs SA thread.
Why? In the same post, I indicated that he had plenty of issues at Iowa,including off court issues with players. No one said he was the greatest coach evah,only that he had done a decent job at NM...at least according to their fans. When Iowa has had the 4 worst records in program history in a row, just a winning record looks like nirvana. Hammer SA all you want,but he has had 11 straight winning seasons between Iowa and NM. I know,we dont need no stinkin winning seasons here at Iowa,we are better than that....waiting for Sioux to comment...

I didn't recognize your handle on this site until your referenced the streak.