Howe: As the Hawkeye World Turns...

[InGoodCo]

For me my outlook has very much changed. I was hoping we would have Moss as a starting guard this year and potentially DJ Harvey the following year. Starting to also wonder if next year could be Wieskamp’s final year at Iowa.

As I noted elsewhere the 2020 recruiting class appears to be all in on XF, and if we don't land him I think we are looking at another very disappointing class.

I was never one of those people that thought Fran had peaked at Iowa, but I’m starting to wonder if those folks might have been one something. I have a tough time seeing any of the teams for the coming years at anything more than a bubble ncaa level.

It’s basketball and things can change very fast, so maybe I’m overreacting some, but it doesn’t feel very good right now.

IMO - you are over reacting a little, while I agree with you that this off season hasn't seen much positive for Iowa, you're letting the Moss transfer weigh in too heavily on everything else. Everyone knew Cook was gone after this season. While him leaving isn't a positive for Iowa, you couldn't have possibly thought he was staying to begin with. Dailey wasn't going to play anyways, so that couldn't have really laid heavily on your mind. So, we're talking about Moss, who was probably our most inconsistent/worst starter in our line up. His loss is by no means a good thing and I hate it because I was a big IM fan, but we both know he's not a difference maker, and somehow now the program is headed for no better than an ncaa bubble level? Seems like an over reaction to me.

Because 3 transfers chose to go somewhere else? That can't be it either, cause you've been telling me for years that Fran doesn't take transfers, so how them not choosing us can't be too big of a shock to you, or at least it shouldn't be. If they chose Iowa, it would be a positive, since they didn't, IMO - who cares? Because the 2020 class, which most schools are still signing, hasn't been shored up yet?

I dunno, seems like 1 small cog took a hit we didn't expect and you're ready to throw it all out, I still have plenty I am excited about including the immediate and near future of the program.... but I am 100% with you in "it doesn't feel very good right now" camp.

 

[hawkdrummer1]

Not trying to be a douche, but don't we already know this? So does Fran need to have a conversation or two with Kirk on how family dynamics work? I don't know, man. I am sure Fran is aware of the "awkwardness".

A basketball roster is much smaller than a football roster and playing time is always on the mind of the guys not starting...especially if the team isn't great.

 

[trj]

A basketball roster is much smaller than a football roster and playing time is always on the mind of the guys not starting...especially if the team isn't great.

Fair point and I get that. I guess I push back on the idea that Fran is totally unaware of the dynamic that having his sons on the team creates.

 

[RobHowe]

I'm not saying Fran is unaware. He's a smart guy, graduating from an Ivy League school and all.

I found it interesting from a player angle, which Adam was a pretty good one here. He thought about that dynamic and shared it.

 

[NikeHawk21]

IMO - you are over reacting a little, while I agree with you that this off season hasn't seen much positive for Iowa, you're letting the Moss transfer weigh in too heavily on everything else. Everyone knew Cook was gone after this season. While him leaving isn't a positive for Iowa, you couldn't have possibly thought he was staying to begin with. Dailey wasn't going to play anyways, so that couldn't have really laid heavily on your mind. So, we're talking about Moss, who was probably our most inconsistent/worst starter in our line up. His loss is by no means a good thing and I hate it because I was a big IM fan, but we both know he's not a difference maker, and somehow now the program is headed for no better than an ncaa bubble level? Seems like an over reaction to me.

Because 3 transfers chose to go somewhere else? That can't be it either, cause you've been telling me for years that Fran doesn't take transfers, so how them not choosing us can't be too big of a shock to you, or at least it shouldn't be. If they chose Iowa, it would be a positive, since they didn't, IMO - who cares? Because the 2020 class, which most schools are still signing, hasn't been shored up yet?

I dunno, seems like 1 small cog took a hit we didn't expect and you're ready to throw it all out, I still have plenty I am excited about including the immediate and near future of the program.... but I am 100% with you in "it doesn't feel very good right now" camp.

I’m probably overreacting, but I don’t think it’s only because of the Moss thing, it’s a combination of many things. I’ve begun following 2020 recruiting a lot more closely than I have in the past, and I just don’t hear a lot of positive developments. It’s early in the game and that could change, but it doesn’t seem great right now.

Btw just for clarification I do not agree with your statement that Moss isn’t a difference maker. A forth year player who at one point was leading the B1G in 3pt % would have definitely been a difference maker. The guy has averaged double figures for a full college season, he might not be our best player and he might have some issues, but he’s definitely a difference maker.

 

[InGoodCo]

I’m probably overreacting, but I don’t think it’s only because of the Moss thing, it’s a combination of many things. I’ve begun following 2020 recruiting a lot more closely than I have in the past, and I just don’t hear a lot of positive developments. It’s early in the game and that could change, but it doesn’t seem great right now.

Btw just for clarification I do not agree with your statement that Moss isn’t a difference maker. A forth year player who at one point was leading the B1G in 3pt % would have definitely been a difference maker. The guy has averaged double figures for a full college season, he might not be our best player and he might have some issues, but he’s definitely a difference maker.

I guess that depends on our definition of difference maker. I wouldn’t even put Moss on The 3rd or 4th team of an All Fran sqaud and he was weakest player in the starting lineup last season. That doesn’t mean I don’t think he was good, or that the impact of him leaving isn’t going to hurt, it will, but he was good player, not a great player. Not good enough for me to suddenly change my outlook on the program.

 

[InGoodCo]

To put it this way, he was a 3 year starter who played because he was a "scorer" right? I mean, he wasn't in there for anything else that I could see, and he failed to score 1000 pts at Iowa. That's well over 100 starts. I am not saying this to downgrade IM and his abilities at Iowa or that he isn't a fine man and player, but he's about as far from a difference maker as you can get for me personally. His loss will hurt, but I think both sides are overreacting. The side that says "man that's a huge blow" and the side that says "meh, we'll be better without him". It's a loss, not a huge loss and not one that is suddenly making me re-think everything about where Iowa is as a program. It's a loss that can be over come fairly easily with the right combo of distribution of minutes. I will miss his shot tho, I was a huge IM fan, but I also can look at it for what it is.

 

[NikeHawk21]

I guess that depends on our definition of difference maker. I wouldn’t even put Moss on The 3rd or 4th team of an All Fran sqaud and he was weakest player in the starting lineup last season. That doesn’t mean I don’t think he was good, or that the impact of him leaving isn’t going to hurt, it will, but he was good player, not a great player. Not good enough for me to suddenly change my outlook on the program.

Again I’m not saying Moss is the only reason, I’m refuting your statement that he’s not an difference maker. They are two separate things and you tried to morph them together in your last sentence.

The reasons my outlook is much bleaker for the program are:

-My outlook is bleaker for next season. We only have 10 scholarship players, 5 of which didn’t play college basketball last year. Was hoping that team could compete for a higher seed, I’m not seeing that now.

-The 2020 recruiting class is starting to feel like it might underwhelm. Throw the Harvey thing in here because he would have really softened the burden of this class. Looks like it could be another 4 or 5 man class based on the scholarship breakdown, I don’t like that at all.

-Starting to think Wieskamp might go pro after next season. That would suck.

-We had an opportunity to bring some fresh blood into our staff... doesn’t appear we will do that.

Those are the reasons I’m not feeling as strongly about the future. They aren’t completely unrelated to Moss but it isn’t the only reason. It could all change if we bring in some studs in the 2020 class, but right now that’s how I see it.

 

[hawkdrummer1]

I'm not saying Fran is unaware. He's a smart guy, graduating from an Ivy League school and all.

I found it interesting from a player angle, which Adam was a pretty good one here. He thought about that dynamic and shared it.

Getting into an IVY league school shows intelligence and performance. So, yes he's a smart guy. That doesn't mean he's "aware".

Graduating from an Ivy league school is more indicative of other things. As one faculty member said to incoming Freshmen "you're in, the fight is over...you're a member of the club". With that...often comes arrogance and self-importance. (no shortage of examples in today's landscape)

Fran is a smart guy. That doesn't mean he's free from the blindness of ego. To the contrary...as an IVY league man, he's probably more susceptible to it.

I had the chance to meet Adam once, struck me as a pretty solid guy. His perspective is interesting for sure.

 

[RobHowe]

I believe Fran is aware that having two sons on the team creates an unusual dynamic. I have no way of proving that.

 

[hawkdrummer1]

I believe Fran is aware that having two sons on the team creates an unusual dynamic. I have no way of proving that.

I'm sure he does. No doubt they've talked about it plenty around the kitchen table as a family.

The question(s) is.(are)... how objective is his analysis of how it could affect recruiting and team dynamics and is he above that instinct of any parent to protect their kid. The latter is of course no...it's just a matter of to what degree.

Dare I add...that a fat contract gives him a whooooole lot of cushion with respect to all of the above which of course affects his judgement to some degree. This is not a good situation, anybody with basic management or organizational skills can see that.

This will not end well.

 

[NikeHawk21]

To put it this way, he was a 3 year starter who played because he was a "scorer" right? I mean, he wasn't in there for anything else that I could see, and he failed to score 1000 pts at Iowa. That's well over 100 starts. I am not saying this to downgrade IM and his abilities at Iowa or that he isn't a fine man and player, but he's about as far from a difference maker as you can get for me personally. His loss will hurt, but I think both sides are overreacting. The side that says "man that's a huge blow" and the side that says "meh, we'll be better without him". It's a loss, not a huge loss and not one that is suddenly making me re-think everything about where Iowa is as a program. It's a loss that can be over come fairly easily with the right combo of distribution of minutes. I will miss his shot tho, I was a huge IM fan, but I also can look at it for what it is.

He ranked ahead of McCaffery, Dailey, and Bohannon in defensive rating. He was 4th on the team in defensive win shares. 2nd on the team in steals behind Baer.

 

[InGoodCo]

He ranked ahead of McCaffery, Dailey, and Bohannon in defensive rating. He was 4th on the team in defensive win shares. 2nd on the team in steals behind Baer.

yeah, our weakest starter is what I said. He was. Over a 100 career starts, didn't score 1000 points. He wasn't a difference maker. He was a good player, not a great one. Iowa will miss that experience a ton. I am not trying to downgrade his departure, I think it's a pretty big deal, but I also am not going to over play it either.

I agree with you, Cook leaving - not good. Moss leaving - not good. Not getting transfers - not good. Those are not good things. It's not been a great off season. 2020 class not really showing a ton of promise - not good. But there's still TONS of time with that. You have NO idea what Fran is going to do with the open coaching spot, so holding that against him is just dumb. And who's to say that hiring within doesn't end up being a good move? I am 100% in agreement with a lot of your view on the program. "Things don't feel good" - I don't feel a positive momentum going and I agree with you.

Worrying about Joe going pro early? Like Fran can control that. That's a good thing. I hope he does go pro - I hope it's after his JR season tho. Either way, I aint worried about it nor do I think it reflects poorly on our future. If he's good enough to play in the NBA that probably means Iowa did some nice things the season prior.

You're here selling sort of doom again cause that's what you do in the off season, and I am here to sell you that you have no idea how things will shake out and to just chill and watch it unfold. Sounds like a broken record tho. Wash, rinse, repeat... it's a Hawkeyenation off season in hoops. Fran has proven to me that the fans don't always know what's right or what's going on. See: Last season

Last year afforded Fran - THIS year with me. That's it. But he's good for the year and I need to see how he manages the pieces he has and what the result is. I have NO idea how it will play out nor will I pretend to. All I know is the 3 biggest pieces for Iowa still remain on the team IMO - now you build around it. I'll save my displeasure for when I see the team not perform next season when it's a problem, cause Iowa still has a GREAT shot to be good next season and moving forward and IMO, you are letting the MOSS transfer paint all the rest of the picture for you and it weighs into your view a little too heavily that only bad things are going to happen to this team going forward.

 

[BigD]

Moss leaving is not good, neither is missing on transfers or consuming NFL mock drafts:

 

[BigD]

 

[NikeHawk21]

yeah, our weakest starter is what I said. He was. Over a 100 career starts, didn't score 1000 points. He wasn't a difference maker. He was a good player, not a great one. Iowa will miss that experience a ton. I am not trying to downgrade his departure, I think it's a pretty big deal, but I also am not going to over play it either.

I agree with you, Cook leaving - not good. Moss leaving - not good. Not getting transfers - not good. Those are not good things. It's not been a great off season. 2020 class not really showing a ton of promise - not good. But there's still TONS of time with that. You have NO idea what Fran is going to do with the open coaching spot, so holding that against him is just dumb. And who's to say that hiring within doesn't end up being a good move? I am 100% in agreement with a lot of your view on the program. "Things don't feel good" - I don't feel a positive momentum going and I agree with you.

Worrying about Joe going pro early? Like Fran can control that. That's a good thing. I hope he does go pro - I hope it's after his JR season tho. Either way, I aint worried about it nor do I think it reflects poorly on our future. If he's good enough to play in the NBA that probably means Iowa did some nice things the season prior.

You're here selling sort of doom again cause that's what you do in the off season, and I am here to sell you that you have no idea how things will shake out and to just chill and watch it unfold. Sounds like a broken record tho. Wash, rinse, repeat... it's a Hawkeyenation off season in hoops. Fran has proven to me that the fans don't always know what's right or what's going on. See: Last season

Last year afforded Fran - THIS year with me. That's it. But he's good for the year and I need to see how he manages the pieces he has and what the result is. I have NO idea how it will play out nor will I pretend to. All I know is the 3 biggest pieces for Iowa still remain on the team IMO - now you build around it. I'll save my displeasure for when I see the team not perform next season when it's a problem, cause Iowa still has a GREAT shot to be good next season and moving forward and IMO, you are letting the MOSS transfer paint all the rest of the picture for you and it weighs into your view a little too heavily that only bad things are going to happen to this team going forward.

Wow you are on a roll my friend (proper use of r-o-l-l roll there ). You said Moss was only out there to score so I shared some defensive numbers with you compared with our other guards. You reply with something about how he’s not a 1,000 point scorer. Did you know he’s had a higher Points per minute than Bohannon each of the last two years? That is not to say he’s a better offensive player than Bohannon, but just to show you your 1,000 point thing is likely skewed by limited minutes Moss gets.

Crap.... this is a tough argument for me because on one hand it’s easy for me to fry your Moss arguments, but then you see shiny object and start blasting me for thinking Moss is the only reason I’ve changed my outlook a bit on the program. Again it’s not, but you’re stuck on that now so it’s tough to change.

Another ingoodco created story, I was not pumping Doom and Gloom last offseason any more than the next guy after a four win conference slate. I actually said the team had NCAA tournament potential. I thought the team was going to be the best 3pt shooting team Fran has had, I think they were or pretty close, that won us some games. I was actually most upset / down on this team when Nunge got redshirted and after the first game I thought this team looked like it was going to suck. They turned it around and had a good year, which was awesome to see.

I’ve been down on KF and the football team many times, in recent years I’ve been a higher than most on the talent we have and the outlook for the for the football team. All this is to say I just try to call it like I see it. In this case I’ve even admitted twice I’m likely overreacting some, but I just don’t feel very excited about the state of the program. I’m not saying anyone else needs to feel that way, that’s just where I’m at.

 

[InGoodCo]

Wow you are on a roll my friend (proper use of r-o-l-l roll there ). You said Moss was only out there to score so I shared some defensive numbers with you compared with our other guards. You reply with something about how he’s not a 1,000 point scorer. Did you know he’s had a higher Points per minute than Bohannon each of the last two years? That is not to say he’s a better offensive player than Bohannon, but just to show you your 1,000 point thing is likely skewed by limited minutes Moss gets.

Crap.... this is a tough argument for me because on one hand it’s easy for me to fry your Moss arguments, but then you see shiny object and start blasting me for thinking Moss is the only reason I’ve changed my outlook a bit on the program. Again it’s not, but you’re stuck on that now so it’s tough to change.

Another ingoodco created story, I was not pumping Doom and Gloom last offseason any more than the next guy after a four win conference slate. I actually said the team had NCAA tournament potential. I thought the team was going to be the best 3pt shooting team Fran has had, I think they were or pretty close, that won us some games. I was actually most upset / down on this team when Nunge got redshirted and after the first game I thought this team looked like it was going to suck. They turned it around and had a good year, which was awesome to see.

I’ve been down on KF and the football team many times, in recent years I’ve been a higher than most on the talent we have and the outlook for the for the football team. All this is to say I just try to call it like I see it. In this case I’ve even admitted twice I’m likely overreacting some, but I just don’t feel very excited about the state of the program. I’m not saying anyone else needs to feel that way, that’s just where I’m at.

You have to try really hard to have that many minutes, that many starts, when you are considered a scorer to not score 1000 points. All I said. He was the weakest spot of our starting line up. He will also be missed. Both of those things can be true. You have the right to feel however you'd like. I think we do have similar discussions every off season and you try and discredit me. I don't really need to do or do that with you, cause I think you're credible. I think you are over reacting. I said so. You said so. Now you've spent 2 days fighting with me about why you aren't. So whatever. We can both agree that it hasn't been a "positive" off season for Iowa basketball.

 

[NikeHawk21]

You have to try really hard to have that many minutes, that many starts, when you are considered a scorer to not score 1000 points. All I said. He was the weakest spot of our starting line up. He will also be missed. Both of those things can be true. You have the right to feel however you'd like. I think we do have similar discussions every off season and you try and discredit me. I don't really need to do or do that with you, cause I think you're credible. I think you are over reacting. I said so. You said so. Now you've spent 2 days fighting with me about why you aren't. So whatever. We can both agree that it hasn't been a "positive" off season for Iowa basketball.

Here’s the thing, I’m not arguing or trying to convince you to agree with me about the state of the program, I’m trying to correct you because you keep saying it’s all about Moss, putting words in my mouth as you often do.

The second problem is in each post you keep making a stupid statement about Moss that I feel obligated to correct. For example here you say “you have to try hard to have that many minutes and not score 1,000 points” to try to refute my argument about Moss having a higher points per minute than Bohannon. Is that a troll or is that serious? Are you that bad at math?? If Moss has a higher points per minute than Bohannon over each of the last three years that would mean if Bohannon played Moss minutes he too wouldn’t be in the 1,000 point club. Does that mean Bohannon isn’t a good scorer either? Again I’m not making the argument that Moss is a better offensive player or even scorer for that matter, just telling you that this 1,000 point hill is a stupid argument. Isaiah Moss has a higher career points per minute than Matt Gatens for example. As a scorer, he’s pretty solid.

So again I don’t care to refute your opinion on the state of the program, just telling you that mine isn’t only about Moss regardless of if you keep saying it is.

 

[Xerxes]

Here’s the thing, I’m not arguing or trying to convince you to agree with me about the state of the program, I’m trying to correct you because you keep saying it’s all about Moss, putting words in my mouth as you often do.

The second problem is in each post you keep making a stupid statement about Moss that I feel obligated to correct. For example here you say “you have to try hard to have that many minutes and not score 1,000 points” to try to refute my argument about Moss having a higher points per minute than Bohannon. Is that a troll or is that serious? Are you that bad at math?? If Moss has a higher points per minute than Bohannon over each of the last three years that would mean if Bohannon played Moss minutes he too wouldn’t be in the 1,000 point club. Does that mean Bohannon isn’t a good scorer either? Again I’m not making the argument that Moss is a better offensive player or even scorer for that matter, just telling you that this 1,000 point hill is a stupid argument. Isaiah Moss has a higher career points per minute than Matt Gatens for example. As a scorer, he’s pretty solid.

So again I don’t care to refute your opinion on the state of the program, just telling you that mine isn’t only about Moss regardless of if you keep saying it is.

Interesting find on those points per minute stat. I would not have thought that was the case but then again Moss doesn't play a lot of minutes and JB does and so did Gatens.

I think the question I have is why didn't he play more? As a P6 basketball coach you would think that Fran would realize that a guy who scores as much as as Moss does and is numbers-wise a good perimeter defender among his teammates would be on the floor so little.

 

[Hawkfnntn]

So Iowa is losing like 30 pts a game between Baer Cook and Moss or so right? Anyone think the combination of Nunge, Pemsl and CM Fredrick or Toussant will match or exceed that overall production?
I rarely see it mentioned in regards to Cook but he drew a bunch of fouls. He gets a lot of mixed takes on his play but that to me was always a huge part to his game. I bet he drew way more fouls on the other teams then anyone else we had. If we aren't getting the other teams in foul trouble and all that goes with that it truly changes up how Fran likes to play.
The increased roles for Garza Nunge and Kreiner will be really interesting. I think Pemsl is who he is itll be tough to count on him for playing big mins game to game.

JW has some big time potential but can he be kinda what he was in HS at this level and just be an offensive force? Even something close to what Jok was his senior year would be amazing but that's a lot to ask.