Hawkeyes Past, Present, Future Share Feelings on Racial Injustice

[InGoodCo]

No lie, this tweet brought me back here just cause I was curious. My first thought was I've made at least a dozen of complaints about blatant racism on HN over the last decade and not one person cared. Never even a single response back. Not 1. Not a "Hey we're looking into it, or hey, we'll get that removed"... nothing. That didn't disappoint me at all because I know I am just 1 voice in a sea of many. I think Hawkeye Nation is great. It's got a lot of ideals and I appreciate everyone's opinion, but some comments that I have flagged over the years have been straight up horrific. Jon often times relayed that his absence from the message boards was often because he was sick of policing, enforcing and playing social justice warrior. I get it, and I do love the HN gives us a safe place to actually have discussions about all of this, but no lie, a lot of stuff I read makes me (and most people) cringe.

 

[Jonrn]

It's family... It starts and ends with how we are raised. Single moms with 5 kids trying to work 2 jobs isn't an ideal way to do it.. Don't get me wrong it's admireable as hell for how many have done it and raised great kids. But those are few and far between it seems like. And it's not ideal. Having 2 parents in the home that give a shit is where everything starts. I think there's a direct correlation with how well kids do in school and stay out of trouble with how many parents are in the home. Years ago I'd seen Bill OReilly (before he was kicked out with all his problems with women) bang the drum on this issue. You can say the messenger is flawed because of course he is but that specific message he'd talked about probably 10 plus years ago he nailed it.

This is definitely an issue. The problem is you can’t turn back time and add a parent, so the problems that come with that are here and we as a society need to deal with them. That is a different issue though...than say...police being called a black jogger or a black man doing yard work because people think they are suspicious because of their skin color.

 

[RobHowe]

No lie, this tweet brought me back here just cause I was curious. My first thought was I've made at least a dozen of complaints about blatant racism on HN over the last decade and not one person cared. Never even a single response back. Not 1. Not a "Hey we're looking into it, or hey, we'll get that removed"... nothing. That didn't disappoint me at all because I know I am just 1 voice in a sea of many. I think Hawkeye Nation is great. It's got a lot of ideals and I appreciate everyone's opinion, but some comments that I have flagged over the years have been straight up horrific. Jon often times relayed that his absence from the message boards was often because he was sick of policing, enforcing and playing social justice warrior. I get it, and I do love the HN gives us a safe place to actually have discussions about all of this, but no lie, a lot of stuff I read makes me (and most people) cringe.

I don't ever remember seeing an alert from you about it. I may have missed it if you did. And as I've said throughout this post, I soft-shoed around it or let it go on here in the past. That's not happening anymore if I see it. It is impossible to see everything. I don't have enough hours in the day. But if anyone sees it after I lock this thread, which is filled with it, please bring it to my attention.

 

[RobHowe]

 

[HuckFinn]

Thank you for the birthday wishes.

Still waiting for my family to wake up. The quarantine has turned them all into college students.

I found this post from Toren Young from Tuesday.

View attachment 6760

Here's the news story:

LINK

Oh my God.

 

[okeefe4prez]

Some of you folks have no interest in learning and educating yourselves on unconscious bias, systemic racism and white privilege.

Happy birthday!

I've studied the aforementioned subjects extensively and find a number of valid points in them. However, there are a few issues that trouble me, particularly in the realm of "unconscious bias." Specifically, the use of "unconscious bias" creates a Narrative whereby an outsider can look at a particular interaction and then draw a conclusion on the mental processes of the participants in that interaction based on nothing but the race of the participants in that interaction. It causes a rush to judgment and a dehumanization of the participants in an interaction and it causes facts to be displaced by the Narrative. I believe that this is extremely dangerous to a society.

Second, these terms and the Narrative have taken on a nearly religious level of fervor and because they are a social science, they, like religious beliefs, are impossible to prove or disprove, and must consequently just be accepted. Critics or those who deviate from the approved message are modern day heretics. They suffer swift adverse consequences at the hands of the Twitter mob. Ideas that purport to be science based should be subject to scrutiny, but scrutiny of these is absolutely verboten in academia and ideas like these need to be vigorously discussed and challenged, but they can't be. Any challenger is met with a cacophony of names, eye rolls, fake laugh tracks on late night TV shows to reinforce the "approved opinion," etc. The West became powerful because people like Martin Luther challenged the social structures and the West had a massive enlightenment a few centuries later. Making conclusory statements and then shutting down the ability to challenge ideas is extremely dangerous to a society (and to be fair, I think conversely dismissing the ideas that you have presented out of hand with no underlying understanding of them is also dangerous to society and I thus thank you for presenting them and allowing discussion).

 

[InGoodCo]

I don't ever remember seeing an alert from you about it. I may have missed it if you did. And as I've said throughout this post, I soft-shoed around it or let it go on here in the past. That's not happening anymore if I see it. It is impossible to see everything. I don't have enough hours in the day. But if anyone sees it after I lock this thread, which is filled with it, please bring it to my attention.

It hasn't been for a long long while, I just kind of gave up on it and I honestly don't want to be the guy whistle blowing every thing I don't agree with, but there are times where it goes over the top and I would report it thru the site. I actually had a comment that Fry said about ....I think Nixon when he was flirting with Bama, (sorry it's been a long while and I am paraphrasing) about how he wants "money and hos" so he wasn't a good fit at Iowa. I left it up for several weeks, no one cared, I am sure it drove Fry crazy, which was the intent. I miss you guys!

 

[RobHowe]

You or anybody else can PM me directly on here or email me at RobHoweHN@gmail.com. I will keep anything anyone brings to me private. Thanks.

 

[Hawkfnntn]

This is definitely an issue. The problem is you can’t turn back time and add a parent, so the problems that come with that are here and we as a society need to deal with them. That is a different issue though...than say...police being called a black jogger or a black man doing yard work because people think they are suspicious because of their skin color.

For sure. Nobody has a time machine. They are separate things with trying to diagnose where problems start and what to do about them once they arrive. Because we are generations into it. Now it's not as bad as it was 50 plus yrs ago either thankfully. But we clearly have a long ways to go. The divorce rate is still pretty crazy high and kids being born out of wedlock all together is high so if we were to improve on those two things and this generation raises their kids in the right way things will get better but that takes time... I don't see any magic light switch to flip to start changing the hearts and minds of that many people..

 

[SpiderRico]

Do you understand systemic racism? Do you understand white privilege? Do you care?

From the NAACP

• In 2014, African Americans constituted 2.3 million, or 34%, of the total 6.8 million correctional population.
• African Americans are incarcerated at more than 5 times the rate of whites.
• The imprisonment rate for African American women is twice that of white women.

Are blacks evil? Are they born bad? Is the playing field really level?

I can tell you I'm really looking forward to your responses.

Rob, I'm on your side on this discussion. Systemic racism is prevalent in our society. White privilege is real (although, human nature being what it is, that term is too often used to bludgeon even allies just because they are white). Unconscious bias exists.

However, when it comes to incarceration, there are so many interconnected factors at play here.

First, with the rare exception, the individuals that are incarcerated committed those crimes. Does that mean because they're black, they're evil? Of course not. It means they committed those crimes.

Now, if you want to talk about all of the bullshit that led to that, then I agree, those discussions need to be had. Whether it's discussions on historical things that have kept people of color in systemic poverty like redlining, Jim Crow, etc which results in the lack of ability to pass generational wealth which ends up trapping people of color into a cycle of poverty. Whether it's discussion on the ridiculous minimum sentencing guidelines for drug users that have ensnared countless people of color. Whether it's a discussion on 3 strikes and you're out guidelines. All of those things have certainly been a contributing factor to the large incarceration % currently seen in this country.

But two (or more) things can be true at the same time. It's true that all of the systemic racism that has existed in this country since it's founding has resulted in a continuous cycle of poverty for people of color, which is the #1 contributing factor of criminal activity in any society. This is white America's responsibility to fix. It's also true that the crimes that people of color are currently incarcerated for were committed. This is black America's responsibility to fix.

Working together, I think it's something that CAN be fixed.

 

[SpiderRico]

It hasn't been for a long long while, I just kind of gave up on it and I honestly don't want to be the guy whistle blowing every thing I don't agree with, but there are times where it goes over the top and I would report it thru the site. I actually had a comment that Fry said about ....I think Nixon when he was flirting with Bama, (sorry it's been a long while and I am paraphrasing) about how he wants "money and hos" so he wasn't a good fit at Iowa. I left it up for several weeks, no one cared, I am sure it drove Fry crazy, which was the intent. I miss you guys!

In full transparency, I want money and hos too....and I'm white!

 

[kicker22]

For sure. Nobody has a time machine. They are separate things with trying to diagnose where problems start and what to do about them once they arrive. Because we are generations into it. Now it's not as bad as it was 50 plus yrs ago either thankfully. But we clearly have a long ways to go. The divorce rate is still pretty crazy high and kids being born out of wedlock all together is high so if we were to improve on those two things and this generation raises their kids in the right way things will get better but that takes time... I don't see any magic light switch to flip to start changing the hearts and minds of that many people..

I think the biggest things that can be done is simply listening and pretending that just because it's gotten better over time, doesn't mean that there isn't still a long ways to go. It's not about denouncing other races or preferential treatment, but rather a movement aimed at treating people as people and equality across the board. It just requires a louder more unified voice.

 

[homes]

One thing that I've sloughed off in the past is the notion that there are bad apples in every organization, so we just have to acknowledge it and deal with it. I've change my mind on this in regards to public safety organizations/police departments.

I was scrolling through someone's twitter and it had a link to a Chris Rock video where he joked, but with truth to it, that these organizations cannot afford to have a few bad apples. He analogized it to airline pilots, they don't allow for a few bad apples in that profession, because of the risks to the passengers if someone is allowed to pilot a airplane who is a "bad apple", as he joked, someone who doesn't like to land planes. That perspective rang true to me. I think that applies to the police. They just can't afford to have a few bad apples anymore. There needs to be zero tolerance. And the days of the unions protecting these guys must end, too.

 

[RobHowe]

 

[SteveGarvey1]

This is my last post on this issue, for my own sanity.

Other than some idiot redneck mayor in Mississippi, everyone condemns what happened to Mr. Floyd. Heck, even Sean Hannity and Rush condemned it.

But all we do in these types of discussion is talk over each other. If I agree there's racism and white privilege but not to the extent that people left of center believe, I might be accused of being closed minded to those issues and that there's no hope for me, or maybe I'm secretly a racist. A study by a black economist from Harvard a few years ago showed no relationship between the race of the officer and victims in police shootings. Same from a joint study from MSU and the University of Maryland. No matter, the narrative is set. Cops are killing too many black people in this country they tell us, no discussion allowed. Trying to continue the discussion probably means you're secretly a racist.

I'm outraged by the video. I'm also outraged to see a St. Louis cop murdered by rioters, another cop shot in the head in Vegas in critical condition, two victims in Davenport shot and killed by rioters. I'm outraged that air-headed Hollywood celebrities, Don Lemon and certain politicians seem to be egging them on, as if this is justified.

Personally, I have a Christian love for everyone, whatever their color, sex, sexual preference whatever.

To people left of center politically-peace. To victims of racism-peace.

 

[Fryowa]

It hasn't been for a long long while, I just kind of gave up on it and I honestly don't want to be the guy whistle blowing every thing I don't agree with, but there are times where it goes over the top and I would report it thru the site. I actually had a comment that Fry said about ....I think Nixon when he was flirting with Bama, (sorry it's been a long while and I am paraphrasing) about how he wants "money and hos" so he wasn't a good fit at Iowa. I left it up for several weeks, no one cared, I am sure it drove Fry crazy, which was the intent. I miss you guys!

It wasn't Nixon, but I said something about that being a draw to the SEC.

You guys are obviously free to ban me if you think I'm racist. It's a privately owned site on the internet for chrissakes. I don't have any say in it. I won't be mad, because I learned a long time ago not to let others' opinions to make me lose sleep. I've stayed out of most of this discussion because it's causing people to hate each other who wouldn't otherwise, but since you bring it up here's my take...

1) I think white privilege is a very real thing. It absolutely exists and my life has been easier in many ways because of it. I don't worry if people are going to avoid me, pull me over for no reason, turn me down on job interviews, any shit like that. If I were black I'd worry about those things.

2) I'm just not going to admit to being overtly or even consciously racist though. You may believe I am, but I'm sorry, we have to disagree. If that's a ban or an admonishment on this board, there's nothing I can do to stop it. What I will say, however, is that I will not come out and tell people I've never had an unconscious bias at some point in my life. Anyone who says they've always, 100% been totally blind to race, gender, societal class, etc. is a liar. I know I have even if I can't think of a particular instance.

If anything I've probably been more susceptible to it and guilty of it. I've lived almost my entire life in NW Iowa and it's one of the "whitest" places in the US. However, where I and others here will differ, is that living where I do doesn't make me racist by default. It can make one ignorant to the problem and out of touch for sure--and I am definitely out of touch with race relations--but it doesn't make someone racist automatically. There are people who equate ignorance to be equal to racism, but I don't think that's such a clear line to draw.

3) There's little chance for discussion, especially on this thread. There are posts that are just off in loony toons left field like the one about offering trips to Africa as a consolation prize, but there are also genuine questions and discussion points that are immediately hit with a sledgehammer. I get that Rob is upset by a lot of people's ignorance on this topic, but after reading through every page of this thread I could see how one would avoid asking a question or making a statement because any slight deviance in understanding, an y slight discussion point, is immediately hit with the the RACIST stamp.

Here's what I think the discussion is twisting. There is a component of the population that's blatantly racist and/or downplays the plight of minorities. Those people are irrelevant because they're obvious, and they won't change their minds. Then there's the contingent (I think @RobHowe refers to part of it as "whataboutism") who say things that aren't probably intentionally racist like, "but I have lots of black friends," or "but why do 'they' have to loot," but they're ignorant. These are the people who could benefit (possibly; not always) from dialogue like the Uncomfortable Discussions With A Black Man. Which I thought was f'ing powerful.

And I'll leave it off with @InGoodCo right here. I know we went round and round about this months ago. Whatever you do now, don't give me any softballs about how you don't think I'm racist, or that I'm generally a good dude, or how you don't dislike me, or any other affirmation. I don't need affirmation and feel good stuff. I comfortable with my own mind, I know whether I hate people or not, and I'm ok. It would just make you sound weak and sound like you're waffling. If you think that's what I am then own it proudly. If I thought you were I'd say so and not try to sugarcoat it.

I'd say I love all you guys to get a chuckle and break some tension, but it'd just set another fire off about how I don't really love people or I shouldn't love so and so because they aren't as enlightened as they should be. If you guys wanna talk about sports or hot sauce or fishing I'm always down for that, but I'm not an ignorant shit stain like was insinuated.

Hate and ignorance are both really, really bad but not the same thing, guys. Ignorance can be educated and redeemed. Hate can't.

 

[PCHawk]

So if anyone wants to have a calm discussion on why what I said earlier was bad, I would love to. I completely understand why it can be precieved as bad from assuming my intent, but I don't know why it is bad from the actual intent I meant it. Is this a case why you don't believe my intent, so it's bad, or a case where you understand my intent but it doesn't matter? If it's the former, then there really isn't anything to say. But if it's the latter, then I would seriously love some input. In the words of Toren Young "instead of telling them how ignorant they are, educate them".

 

[okeefe4prez]

I mentioned the school part above, but it isn't just a school funding issue (I think that is an interjected teachers' union talking point). Keeping the schools as they are and increasing funding is just a continuation of separate but equal. They actually have to desegregate the schools. The South was ordered to desegregate schools in the '50's and '60's. I live in a nice upper middle class neighborhood in the deep south and it is probably a quarter to a third black. That setup is fairly common in the South, but very uncommon in the North. Places like Chicago, Detroit and New York are completely segregated, yet the so-called "intellectuals" who live in them paint southerners as redneck racists at every possible turn. If there is racism, they tell themselves, it must either be unconscious on our part because we are virtuous or systemic because it must be the system, it can't possibly be us! So they have to look to the South for stuff from 50 years ago so their noses aren't rubbed in the massive injustice that happens 2 miles from their house where the "bad school" boundary starts.

Thurgood Marshall wrote a good dissent on the issue back in 1974 when the Detroit busing case hit the Supreme Court. He said:

We deal here with the right of all of our children, whatever their race, to an equal start in life and to an equal opportunity to reach their full potential as citizens. Those children who have been denied that right in the past deserve better than to see fences thrown up to deny them that right in the future. Our Nation, I fear, will be ill-served by the Court's refusal to remedy separate and unequal education, for unless our children begin to learn together, there is little hope that our people will ever learn to live together.
...
Today's holding, I fear, is more a reflection of a perceived public mood that we have gone far enough in enforcing the Constitution's guarantee of equal justice than it is the product of neutral principle of law. In the short run, it may seem to be the easier course to allow our great metropolitan areas to be divided up each into two cities -- one white, the other black -- but it is a course, I predict, our people will ultimately regret. I dissent.

That is absolutely spot on. The government cannot ensure equality of outcome and it can't create a totally level playing field (and that holds within races as well), but to me the biggest issue is that the government has to take every possible step to ensure that the schools are desegregated and that each kid gets a relatively equal input in terms of a government funded education at the outset.

 

[RobHowe]

It wasn't Nixon, but I said something about that being a draw to the SEC.

You guys are obviously free to ban me if you think I'm racist. It's a privately owned site on the internet for chrissakes. I don't have any say in it. I won't be mad, because I learned a long time ago not to let others' opinions to make me lose sleep. I've stayed out of most of this discussion because it's causing people to hate each other who wouldn't otherwise, but since you bring it up here's my take...

1) I think white privilege is a very real thing. It absolutely exists and my life has been easier in many ways because of it. I don't worry if people are going to avoid me, pull me over for no reason, turn me down on job interviews, any shit like that. If I were black I'd worry about those things.

2) I'm just not going to admit to being overtly or even consciously racist though. You may believe I am, but I'm sorry, we have to disagree. If that's a ban or an admonishment on this board, there's nothing I can do to stop it. What I will say, however, is that I will not come out and tell people I've never had an unconscious bias at some point in my life. Anyone who says they've always, 100% been totally blind to race, gender, societal class, etc. is a liar. I know I have even if I can't think of a particular instance.

If anything I've probably been more susceptible to it and guilty of it. I've lived almost my entire life in NW Iowa and it's one of the "whitest" places in the US. However, where I and others here will differ, is that living where I do doesn't make me racist by default. It can make one ignorant to the problem and out of touch for sure--and I am definitely out of touch with race relations--but it doesn't make someone racist automatically. There are people who equate ignorance to be equal to racism, but I don't think that's such a clear line to draw.

3) There's little chance for discussion, especially on this thread. There are posts that are just off in loony toons left field like the one about offering trips to Africa as a consolation prize, but there are also genuine questions and discussion points that are immediately hit with a sledgehammer. I get that Rob is upset by a lot of people's ignorance on this topic, but after reading through every page of this thread I could see how one would avoid asking a question or making a statement because any slight deviance in understanding, an y slight discussion point, is immediately hit with the the RACIST stamp. Rob,

Here's what I think the discussion is twisting. There is a component of the population that's blatantly racist and/or downplays the plight of minorities. Those people are irrelevant because they're obvious, and they won't change their minds. Then there's the contingent (I think @RobHowe refers to part of it as "whataboutism") who say things that aren't probably intentionally racist like, "but I have lots of black friends," or "but why do 'they' have to loot," but they're ignorant. These are the people who could benefit (possibly; not always) from dialogue like the Uncomfortable Discussions With A Black Man. Which I thought was f'ing powerful.

And I'll leave it off with @InGoodCo right here. I know we went round and round about this months ago. Whatever you do now, don't give me any softballs about how you don't think I'm racist, or that I'm generally a good dude, or how you don't dislike me, or any other affirmation. I don't need affirmation and feel good stuff. I comfortable with my own mind, I know whether I hate people or not, and I'm ok. It would just make you sound weak and sound like you're waffling. If you think that's what I am then own it proudly. If I thought you were I'd say so and not try to sugarcoat it.

I'd say I love all you guys to get a chuckle and break some tension, but it'd just set another fire off about how I don't really love people or I shouldn't love so and so because they aren't as enlightened as they should be. If you guys wanna talk about sports or hot sauce or fishing I'm always down for that, but I'm not an ignorant shit stain like was insinuated.

Hate and ignorance are both really, really bad but not the same thing, guys. Ignorance can be educated and redeemed. Hate can't.

I haven't banned anybody who has posted in this thread.

The floor is open until I lock it unless someone goes completely off the deep end. And as you can see, the leash is long.

 

[Hawkfnntn]

I think the biggest things that can be done is simply listening and pretending that just because it's gotten better over time, doesn't mean that there isn't still a long ways to go. It's not about denouncing other races or preferential treatment, but rather a movement aimed at treating people as people and equality across the board. It just requires a louder more unified voice.

I think for those that have the intent on being good people to begin with yeah they are capable of listening and learning. But they WANT to. What about those that just don't care and are entrenched in with who they are. Be it openly racist or just kinda on the down low where it only bubbles up when the circumstances arrive. Solving the racial issues is such a multi layered thing. To me prevention from the start is the way to go. Get it to the point there's so few racists that their impact is minimal and irrelevant. I'm not saying don't try changing hearts and minds now I'm just not all that optimistic of it working all that well. Been trying that for decades already.