Fry & Ferentz Records vs. Big 10 Teams + Iowa St.

HawkIMalaise

HawkIMalaise

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I composed the records of Fry and Ferentz against the current Big 10 teams minus Rutgers and Maryland plus Iowa State. So basically I included Penn St. Nebraska even when they weren't in the Big 10 conference.


W-L W-L
Nebraska: Fry 1-3 Ferentz 1-4
Minnesota:Fry 12-8 Ferentz 10-5
Wisconsin:Fry 15-2-1 Ferentz 6-7
Iowa St. :Fry 16-4 Ferentz 6-8
Illinois: Fry 10-8 Ferentz 5-3
Purdue: Fry 13-5 Ferentz 7-4
NW: Fry 17-3 Ferentz 6-7
Indiana: Fry 11-5 Ferentz 7-5
O$U: Fry 3-12-1 Ferentz 1-8
Mich St. Fry 11-3-1 Ferentz 7-6
Michigan: Fry 4-11-1 Ferentz 6-5
Penn St. Fry 2-3 Ferentz 8-4

I highlighted a few that stand out to me. MSU also stands out.
 
Point to make on Kirk record versus ISU. 4(?) of those losses were in the beginning when he was building the program. 99-03? He lost 3 or four right off. But since then he has done well against them.
 
Fry and Ferentz both took over lousy teams, had winning records by their 3rd year, and coached for 16+ years, which makes it fair to compare their records.

You could argue Ferentz deserves a pass while building his program, but that really only applies for his first 2 years in 99-00. How could you possibly argue he gets a pass in 01-02 when Ferentz had winning teams that went to bowl games?

One thing you could argue is that Fry benefited during his era that Iowa State, Wisconsin and NW all sucked in the 80's and early 90's. Of course you argue that Fry was part of the reason their records were so bad.

But for the most part, Fry had good records against bad teams and bad records against good teams. The big exception for Fry was Minnesota, but otherwise he beat the teams he was supposed to.

Ferentz is a little more bizzare. Better records than you would expect against Michigan and PSU. Mediocre records against ISU, Indy, NW, etc.
 
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Ferentz's record against Northwestern is what truly slays me. They've only really had 1-2 good seasons during the past 20 years yet we somehow manage to "underperform" when we play them. Fry didn't really have too many problems. Yet you can look at Ferentz's record against Michigan and it is definitely better than Fry's. Why this is the way it is, I'll never understand. I'd really like to see Iowa do better against those trolls from Madison. Fry teams were playing UW when they were lousy. It wasn't until Alvarez (Hawkeye) and Big-nosed Bielema (Hawkeye) turned their program around (if you can even count Bielema in this equation). Now we need to take control of that series again.
 
guffus said:
Fry and Ferentz both took over lousy teams, had winning records by their 3rd year, and coached for 16+ years, which makes it fair to compare their records.

You could argue Ferentz deserves a pass while building his program, but that really only applies for his first 2 years in 99-00. How could you possibly argue he gets a pass in 01-02 when Ferentz had winning teams that went to bowl games?

One thing you could argue is that Fry benefited during his era that Iowa State, Wisconsin and NW all sucked in the 80's and early 90's. Of course you argue that Fry was part of the reason their records were so bad.

But for the most part, Fry had good records against bad teams and bad records against good teams. The big exception for Fry was Minnesota, but otherwise he beat the teams he was supposed to.

Ferentz is a little more bizzare. Better records than you would expect against Michigan and PSU. Mediocre records against ISU, Indy, NW, etc.
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In 2001, both teams had 6 wins going into the game, and Vegas had Iowa as a 5 pt favorite (not sure if that is opening line, or line at kickoff). Iowa lost by 3 on the road.

In 2002, Iowa St. started the season by nearly upsetting #1 Florida State. They then ran off a 6 game winning streak, which included wins @ Iowa and a 22 point beatdown of then #20 Nebraska. They also had a great talent at QB (2nd team all Big-12, 10 year NFL career), which is huge in college FB. When they met Iowa, Vegas had Hawkeyes as a 3 pt favorite at home (again, not sure if that is opening or kickoff). Iowa State did swoon down the stretch that season.

So the losses were disappointing, but not unreasonable.

Likewise with the NW losses: NW has been a bowl team in 8 of the 15 Ferentz seasons, including 7 of 10 seasons between 2003 and 2012. Although they have not been an overwhelming team, they have always been a bad strategic match-up for Iowa.

I think comparing Fry's and Ferentz's records vs. common teams says a lot more about how the fortunes of those teams have changed than differences in the coaches. If you want to compare how each coach does in games they should win, compare their performance against the Vegas spread. I think Jon did this a few years ago, showing that Ferentz did not compare well against his closest comps (Wisconsin and Mich St.) in games where he is favored, but I am too lazy to search for it.
 
For those that are interested, Iowa vs. the spread during the Ferentz era:

1999: 4-7
2000: 8-4
2001: 9-3
2002: 9-3
2003: 10-3
2004: 9-3
2005: 6-5
2006: 2-10
2007: 6-6
2008: 7-4
2009: 9-3
2010: 6-6
2011: 5-8
2012: 3-9
2013: 8-5

Doesn't say anything about how the Hawks have done as favorites or underdogs, but kind of interesting none the less.
 
Penn State and Michigan have been in decline during the Ferentz era, with a few nice years mixed in.

HERE IS A TREND MSU, and Wisconsin have passed Iowa in recruiting and on the field.
 
Here's the difference....

Fry's records vs each teams was pretty much consistent with the teams/talent each team had. Fry generally fielded 'good' teams, and according had 'great' records vs bad teams (over his tenure), 'good' records vs mediocre teams, and 'bad' records vs good/great teams.

Ferentz's records, HOWEVER, are basically indicative of matchups. It's no secret his Offensive and Defensive schemes have pretty much NEVER changed over his tenure. And KF's 'schemes' (especially on defensive side) match-up great against 'traditional' offensive teams (PSU, Mich), and match-up awful against spread-type offenses (see NW).
 
NCHawker said:
Penn State and Michigan have been in decline during the Ferentz era, with a few nice years mixed in.

HERE IS A TREND MSU, and Wisconsin have passed Iowa in recruiting and on the field.
Click to expand...

Certainly true when you look at the last handful of years. I am hopeful that the pendulum is swinging. I guess your (general "your", not you specifically) feelings about the Hawks really come down to whether you think Ferentz is the best person to swing that pendulum back, or if you think someone else is better suited. I personally feel that Ferentz has things trending in the right direction, but time will tell.
 
There are some issues with the comparison between Fry and Ferentz as there would be if you compared Schembechler with Carr. Here are some differences that influence the raw numbers. First Fry coached in an era with teams permitted to have 100+ scholarships, Ferentz has had 85 scholarships most of the time. Fry had Bill Snyder as offensive coordinator. What happened when Snyder took the job at Kansas State? Granted Fry was near the end of his tenure at Iowa, but the offense dropped off markedly. Snyder was the mind behind Iowa's offense. No doubt he will be a hall of fame coach.

Wisconsin was terrible until Alvarez took over. The same would be true for Northwestern until Barnett took over. Joe Tiller made Purdue relevant for a while. Until Iowa broke the Ohio State and Michigan hold over the conference in the early 80's every other Big Ten team was uncompetitive. Today people lament about the state of the conference nationally, yet it is probably more competitive among conference members than ever. MSU wasn't to win the conference championship over Ohio State and yet it did.
 
guffus said:
Fry and Ferentz both took over lousy teams, had winning records by their 3rd year, and coached for 16+ years, which makes it fair to compare their records.

You could argue Ferentz deserves a pass while building his program, but that really only applies for his first 2 years in 99-00. How could you possibly argue he gets a pass in 01-02 when Ferentz had winning teams that went to bowl games?

One thing you could argue is that Fry benefited during his era that Iowa State, Wisconsin and NW all sucked in the 80's and early 90's. Of course you argue that Fry was part of the reason their records were so bad.

But for the most part, Fry had good records against bad teams and bad records against good teams. The big exception for Fry was Minnesota, but otherwise he beat the teams he was supposed to.

Ferentz is a little more bizzare. Better records than you would expect against Michigan and PSU. Mediocre records against ISU, Indy, NW, etc.
Click to expand...



Great points. That's three wins per year. Those teams were truly awful in the 80's. You could make the argument that ISU may be headed that way again... who knows :)
 
UNIhawk34 said:
Ferentz's record against Northwestern is what truly slays me. They've only really had 1-2 good seasons during the past 20 years yet we somehow manage to "underperform" when we play them. Fry didn't really have too many problems. Yet you can look at Ferentz's record against Michigan and it is definitely better than Fry's. Why this is the way it is, I'll never understand. I'd really like to see Iowa do better against those trolls from Madison. Fry teams were playing UW when they were lousy. It wasn't until Alvarez (Hawkeye) and Big-nosed Bielema (Hawkeye) turned their program around (if you can even count Bielema in this equation). Now we need to take control of that series again.
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NW during the KF era is light-years ahead of where they were in the Fry era (2 Barnett seasons excluded).

NW was really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really bad during Fry's years.

KF's NW losses have really irked me because I think we've been the better team in a majority of those losses, but playing NW now is not the same as playing NW in 1987.
 
HawkIPA said:
Why do you make this point without saying that Wisconsin, NU and ISU have been better in the KF era than Hayden's era?
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Exactly. The team-by-team comparison is tough given the dynamic nature of each individual program and the league as a whole.

Personally, I think there is a lot more parity in the B10 now than there was in Fry's time. If you are a middle-to-upper-middle team like Iowa, that parity would seem to make wins more difficult in general.
 
UNIhawk34 said:
Ferentz's record against Northwestern is what truly slays me. They've only really had 1-2 good seasons during the past 20 years yet we somehow manage to "underperform" when we play them. Fry didn't really have too many problems. Yet you can look at Ferentz's record against Michigan and it is definitely better than Fry's. Why this is the way it is, I'll never understand. I'd really like to see Iowa do better against those trolls from Madison. Fry teams were playing UW when they were lousy. It wasn't until Alvarez (Hawkeye) and Big-nosed Bielema (Hawkeye) turned their program around (if you can even count Bielema in this equation). Now we need to take control of that series again.
Click to expand...

Northwestern has more Big Ten championships in the past 20 years than Iowa. The issue is every team saw what Hayden did and most ADs are smart enough to understand that they couldn't compete with Michigan (the real one and not this current garbage program) and OSU year in and year out and so every team put a target on Iowa with the goal of displacing us as a team that was regularly the "best of the rest" with the occasional miracle year where we bested the big boys. Instead of bashing Ferentz or our athletic department, I have to give credit to Wisconsin, Northwestern and MSU because they've been reasonably successful and with MSU's Rose Bowl last year, our Rose Bowl drought* is only bested by Minnesota and Indiana.

* Iowa would not have gone to the Rose Bowl in 2002 under the old rules due to the loss to ISU.
 
okeefe4prez said:
Northwestern has more Big Ten championships in the past 20 years than Iowa. The issue is every team saw what Hayden did and most ADs are smart enough to understand that they couldn't compete with Michigan (the real one and not this current garbage program) and OSU year in and year out and so every team put a target on Iowa with the goal of displacing us as a team that was regularly the "best of the rest" with the occasional miracle year where we bested the big boys. Instead of bashing Ferentz or our athletic department, I have to give credit to Wisconsin, Northwestern and MSU because they've been reasonably successful and with MSU's Rose Bowl last year, our Rose Bowl drought* is only bested by Minnesota and Indiana.

* Iowa would not have gone to the Rose Bowl in 2002 under the old rules due to the loss to ISU.
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Actually, Iowa was the Rose Bowl's pick in 2002 (Ohio State went to the national championship game) but the Orange Bowl picked Iowa before the Rose Bowl could pick them.

I absolutely consider the 2002 Iowa team a Rose Bowl team, since they were actually picked to go to a bowl (Orange) higher in the pecking order that year.
 
I think the only way to compare Fry to Ferentz would be the overall record. Today Fry is at 61% winning percentage and Ferentz is at 58%. Not much difference at all.

Fry has 3 BIG titles v. Ferentz at 2, but Ferentz has won a BCS bowl game (Orange) and Fry never did.

I can't give the overall edge to Fry. It is too close.
 
okeefe4prez said:
Northwestern has more Big Ten championships in the past 20 years than Iowa. The issue is every team saw what Hayden did and most ADs are smart enough to understand that they couldn't compete with Michigan (the real one and not this current garbage program) and OSU year in and year out and so every team put a target on Iowa with the goal of displacing us as a team that was regularly the "best of the rest" with the occasional miracle year where we bested the big boys. Instead of bashing Ferentz or our athletic department, I have to give credit to Wisconsin, Northwestern and MSU because they've been reasonably successful and with MSU's Rose Bowl last year, our Rose Bowl drought* is only bested by Minnesota and Indiana.

* Iowa would not have gone to the Rose Bowl in 2002 under the old rules due to the loss to ISU.
Click to expand...

I'm sure this has been talked about before, but I thought the old rules to determine Rose Bowl participation was:

1. Big 10 record
2. Head to head matchup
3. Longer Rose Bowl drought

We both had identical 8-0 B1G records, we didn't play each other, so wouldn't we have gone since they had gone more recently?
 
In this debate I lean toward Hayden. Hayden had to change a mindset, a culture, which is far more difficult than restocking the cupboards. Without Hayden, there is no KF. Kf would be a long time, reputable NFL OL line coach.
 
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