Fran Lost me today!!

[PCHawk]

Yeah, playing Ogs extended minutes just because he made two shots was a total FAIL. Don't get me wrong it was nice to see Ogs finally hit a shot in B1G play, but common you seriously sit one of your starters for that long just because one of your pet projects finally hits a shot? Fran's rotations are *ucked, and he finally got them straightened out in a couple wins, and then he ditches what was working cause dude hits a 3.....finally.....like he is supposed to, so he gets extended minutes. I mean a down game for Jok (2-7 shooting) is a lights out performance for Ogs (2-6 shooting) and earns Ogs extended minutes.

Man is this post the truth. A lot of people on here are talking about how bad Jok played and he was only 1 missed shot away from the same game as Oglesby's best game in 6 weeks.

 

[blubberhawk]

As far as the point he was trying to make, there is no difference as all. His point was that all teams lose to inferior opponents, so it's not like there is something out of the ordinary when we lose to Northwestern . I would argue that it's a lot more embarrassing for Wisconsin to lose to Rutgers than it is for iowa to lose to Northwestern.

Now if he was trying to make the point that it won't hurt our tournament resume losing to Northwestern because ISU and Wisconsin lose to bad teams too, then i would agree with you.

Iowa loses to good and bad teams..We do not discriminate. It is silly to mention Iowa BB in the same breath as Wisc. and ISU. Wisconsin program is light years ahead of Iowa. Hoiberg has it figured out that you do not win at a high level in NCAA D-1 BB playing a bunch of un-athletic white kids.

 

[PCHawk]

Iowa loses to good and bad teams..We do not discriminate. It is silly to mention Iowa BB in the same breath as Wisc. and ISU. Wisconsin program is light years ahead of Iowa. Hoiberg has it figured out that you do not win at a high level in NCAA D-1 BB playing a bunch of un-athletic white kids.

Clearly Wisconsin is better. That doesn't matter in the context of my post. One of the dumbest things on this message board is when someone uses an example to prove a point and someone else points out one difference between the two teams and somehow thinks that proves that the origional point wasn't accurate.

 

[Knight78]

End of game management was terrible. Every single one of us would have told our players to not intentionally foul twice in OT. Also, Oglesby shouldn't be in over Jok just because he actually hit a couple. Jok is way more likely to hit an open three than Josh. I don't know what they hell that was today.

Let's compare stats from yesterday:

Oglesby 2-6 FG, 2-6 3pt, 0-0 FT, 3 Reb, 1 Ast, 3 Stl, 0 TO, 6 points in 25 minutes.
Jok 2-7 FG, 0-2 3pt, 0-0 FT, 5 Reb, 1 Ast, 0 Stl, 0 TO, 4 points in 26 minutes.

Hmmm. Plus yesterday Jok was getting beat consistently on D whereas Ogs was getting beat once in a while; and Ogs was in better help position and helped to stop drives by opponents for teammates that Jok did not do. Neither one was doing much on the offensive end.

I would have rather seen Clemmons 1-2 FG, 1-1 3pt, 0-0 FT, 0 Reb, 4 Ast, 0 Stl, 0 TO, 3 points in 12 minutes. With jNW going smaller on all players but Olah, he would have been a better perimeter defender than either Jok or Ogs and he definitely had a better line yesterday.

 

[PCHawk]

Iowa loses to good and bad teams..We do not discriminate. It is silly to mention Iowa BB in the same breath as Wisc. and ISU. Wisconsin program is light years ahead of Iowa. Hoiberg has it figured out that you do not win at a high level in NCAA D-1 BB playing a bunch of un-athletic white kids.

Also Wisconsin lost to Duke and Rutgers. That's about as "losing to good and bad teams" as it gets. All teams lose to good and bad teams except a select few. Wisconsin losing to a team as bad as Rutgers when they are light years ahead of us should only soften the blow for our fans when we lose to a bad team.

When someone says "losing to a really bad team isn't something to get worked up about because it happens to everyone, even teams like Wisconsin and ISU", it's kinda dumb to rebuttal that with a "they're different because they're really good programs". That means you think that teams way better than us can lose to really bad teams but somehow we should be able to always avoid it. It doesn't make sense.

 

[Knight78]

He has utterly failed to capitalize on, and seize, momentum when numerous times have presented themselves...

3 years ago should have been an NCAA tourney bid, but a late, last second loss to Nebraska relegated us to the NIT.

Last year, we were flying high in the Top 10, and 2nd in the B1G, but Fran manufactured an unnecessary crisis out of a pathetic Twitter war involving McCabe and the resulting distraction derailed the season.

This year, following 2 big wins and sitting 2nd in the loss column in the B1G and one spot outside the Top 25, he took what should have been a "shoulder shrug" incident involving Woody's eye pokes and turned it into a war with an ESPN analyst, a d!ckhead move against a local reporter, and the resulting manufactured distraction has once again derailed another season.

Good coaches take advantage of opportunities that present themselves and do NOT manufacture distractions. Period.

Fran can take his act to some mid-major school where he belongs...cuz he certainly ain't ready for prime time...

I disagree with your reason for last year. I believe Fran, being human and a father, was distracted by the news of Patrick having cancer and subsequently having him somewhat distracted from coaching. I think it continues to weigh on him; according to most experts today you have to be 5 years cancer free before even considering that you are cured. If you don't think that's a huge distraction then you've never had any close family members who had cancer. I've had 4: one is still dealing with chemo, two have passed away due to cancer, and one survived because his wife, a nurse, caught it early.

 

[Knight78]

On the bright side..Northwestern went into the Kohl Center last year and beat Wisconsin. Wisconsin made it to the Final Four. **** happens. We can still make the dance. Beat Rutgers and everyone will shut up about Fran. I'm not happy about these last 2 games at all..but there's still plenty of opportunity for Fran and this team over the next month. Go Hawks!

The only way some posters on this board would "shut up about Fran" is to pay them off.... six figures would probably do it.

 

[Knight78]

You lost me out of the gate with that one. Granted Pete's shot was off yesterday, but that's a bit over the top. One guy had a good game (for him) with 6 points on 33% shooting, the other was coming off 3 straight double figure games where he shot over 50%. JO used to somewhat make up the difference with defense and passing, but I'd say defense is pretty close to a wash at this point and Pete is probably the better passer.

I'll disagree on the defense. On-ball, yes they are pretty close. Jok still struggles with help side defense. It's not really his fault, he didn't need to play defense in HS and hasn't really learned yet.

And I'll definitely disagree on passing. Ogs is the ONLY guy on the team that understands how to feed the post. He understands that you have to be in the right postion on the floor, have to feed away from the defender and have to throw a crisp pass. The only guy on the team that even comes close to Ogs as a post passer is Woody. If you want to go straight stats, Ogs has less turnovers in more time played than Jok as well; a lot of that is passing. Jok tends to throw a lazy pass.

 

[SheagleHawk]

Let's compare stats from yesterday:

Oglesby 2-6 FG, 2-6 3pt, 0-0 FT, 3 Reb, 1 Ast, 3 Stl, 0 TO, 6 points in 25 minutes.
Jok 2-7 FG, 0-2 3pt, 0-0 FT, 5 Reb, 1 Ast, 0 Stl, 0 TO, 4 points in 26 minutes.

Hmmm. Plus yesterday Jok was getting beat consistently on D whereas Ogs was getting beat once in a while; and Ogs was in better help position and helped to stop drives by opponents for teammates that Jok did not do. Neither one was doing much on the offensive end.

I would have rather seen Clemmons 1-2 FG, 1-1 3pt, 0-0 FT, 0 Reb, 4 Ast, 0 Stl, 0 TO, 3 points in 12 minutes. With jNW going smaller on all players but Olah, he would have been a better perimeter defender than either Jok or Ogs and he definitely had a better line yesterday.

Yeah, by fouling. 4 fouls is not getting "beat once in awhile" nor is it helping the team.

 

[blubberhawk]

Also Wisconsin lost to Duke and Rutgers. That's about as "losing to good and bad teams" as it gets. All teams lose to good and bad teams except a select few. Wisconsin losing to a team as bad as Rutgers when they are light years ahead of us should only soften the blow for our fans when we lose to a bad team.

When someone says "losing to a really bad team isn't something to get worked up about because it happens to everyone, even teams like Wisconsin and ISU", it's kinda dumb to rebuttal that with a "they're different because they're really good programs". That means you think that teams way better than us can lose to really bad teams but somehow we should be able to always avoid it. It doesn't make sense.

The difference is Iowa loses to **** poor teams on a regular basis. Wisc. and teams like them lose an occasional stinker. Wisconsin's loss to Rutgers is totally overshadowed by their overall record. Wisconsin is THERE. Iowa is fighting to get THERE. Iowa's loss to Northwestern was 100X worse than the Wisconsin loss to Rutgers.

 

[SheagleHawk]

I'll disagree on the defense. On-ball, yes they are pretty close. Jok still struggles with help side defense. It's not really his fault, he didn't need to play defense in HS and hasn't really learned yet.

And I'll definitely disagree on passing. Ogs is the ONLY guy on the team that understands how to feed the post. He understands that you have to be in the right postion on the floor, have to feed away from the defender and have to throw a crisp pass. The only guy on the team that even comes close to Ogs as a post passer is Woody. If you want to go straight stats, Ogs has less turnovers in more time played than Jok as well; a lot of that is passing. Jok tends to throw a lazy pass.

Probably bc Ogelsby does nothing but float around the perimeter, pump fake no one, take 2 dribbles and pass the ball 5ft to another player on the perimeter. He brings nothing to the offense. At least Jok tries to attack/create, though ill advised at times. He wants to score; he's looking for his shot. Not wetting his pants trying to get rid of the ball bc he has zero confidence and would rather someone else sack up and take the shot.

 

[NEIChawk]

Good scorers always find a way to get to the rim, and get points...Jok needs to keep dribbling once he beats his guy...he will pump fake, take one dribble and shoot....If the defender doesn't leave his feet he can recover and get back in the play...ala Lindsey blocking his shot.....I agree, Peter is looking to score...everyone else just stands around and that frustrates me...

 

[HawkPrdatr40]

Good scorers always find a way to get to the rim, and get points...Jok needs to keep dribbling once he beats his guy...he will pump fake, take one dribble and shoot....If the defender doesn't leave his feet he can recover and get back in the play...ala Lindsey blocking his shot.....I agree, Peter is looking to score...everyone else just stands around and that frustrates me...

Exactly and even more of a headscratcher that he sat as much as he did.


Ogelsby v Jok
Ogelsby averages 20 mins per game and averages 3.5ppg. Ogelsby has played a total of 485 mins and scored 83 points. 50 rebounds and 11 steals
Jok averages 19.8 Mins per game and averages 7.0ppg. Jok has played 496 and scored 175 points. 66 rebounds and 17 steals.


Woody v Gabe
Woody averages 21.2 mins per game and averages 7.1ppg, 5.2 boards and 0.4 Blocks. Woody has played 531 mins scored 178 points, 131 rebounds and 9 blocks.
Gabe averages 18.1 mins per game and averages 8.0ppg, 4.9 boards and 1.6 blocks. Gabe has played 453 mins scored 201 points, 123 rebounds and 41 blocks.

 

[RocknRollface]

You lost me out of the gate with that one. Granted Pete's shot was off yesterday, but that's a bit over the top. One guy had a good game (for him) with 6 points on 33% shooting, the other was coming off 3 straight double figure games where he shot over 50%. JO used to somewhat make up the difference with defense and passing, but I'd say defense is pretty close to a wash at this point and Pete is probably the better passer.

Jok scored points against minesota, he also couldn't stop Holins to save his life and had a bunch of ugly out of control drives that resulted in turnovers.

Yes Jok is a little bit better but neither is very good and Josh is as good of a passer and better defender. I knew saying that would ruffle some feathers but it's not like Jok is some kind of all conference player. He wouldn't see much time for most big ten teams.

 

[HawkeyeWalker]

I like Fran enough that i want to give him 2 more years but I cant justify it. Next seasons roster doesnt offer much NCAA tourney hope and our front line will be a mess.

If I recall, this year's roster, losing Marble, didn't give us much NCAA hope but we are right in the mix. I agree the front line looks thin at the moment. I actually am optimistic on Uthoff, Jok, Uhl. There's always an IF though...If Gessell plays well, Dickerson develops, and If a couple of the young guys/recruits emerge....

Overall, I think we will have more scoring threats than we've had in some time.

 

[HawkeyeWalker]

Jok scored points against minesota, he also couldn't stop Holins to save his life and had a bunch of ugly out of control drives that resulted in turnovers.

Yes Jok is a little bit better but neither is very good and Josh is as good of a passer and better defender. I knew saying that would ruffle some feathers but it's not like Jok is some kind of all conference player. He wouldn't see much time for most big ten teams.

Jok has also shown quite a bit of improvement in all phases from last year. If he continues to improve, he will be a legit scoring threat and average defender. Oges is a senior, Jok has 2 years left.

 

[FranklinHawk]

I'll disagree on the defense. On-ball, yes they are pretty close. Jok still struggles with help side defense. It's not really his fault, he didn't need to play defense in HS and hasn't really learned yet.

And I'll definitely disagree on passing. Ogs is the ONLY guy on the team that understands how to feed the post. He understands that you have to be in the right postion on the floor, have to feed away from the defender and have to throw a crisp pass. The only guy on the team that even comes close to Ogs as a post passer is Woody. If you want to go straight stats, Ogs has less turnovers in more time played than Jok as well; a lot of that is passing. Jok tends to throw a lazy pass.

We'll have to agree to disagree on the passing, particularly around feeding the post. I personally think Pete does a better job in this area than anyone on the team, and it's primarily because he's drawing guys with his dribble/drive and then feeding the big guys rather than just standing out on the wing and trying to dump it down low. I think he has more turnovers because he's more aggressive on offense and many of those are because he still needs to tighten up his handles. Josh doesn't turn the ball over as much simply because he spends much more time just moving the ball around the perimeter. Again just my opinion, but I think the gap on defense has narrowed significantly to the point that Pete's offensive skillset just can't allow Fran to keep him on the bench in favor of JO for extended minutes. If we were talking "Jr Josh" shooting 40% from 3 that would be an entirely different story, but when 2-6 shooting is your best game in weeks I just don't see it.

I do agree that help side defense is still something Pete needs to work on, and he could also learn some things from JO in regards to movement on the wing and using screens to get open more often. He can tend to just "stand out there and wait" at times and is pretty dependant on ball rotation/reversal to get open looks from 3.

 

[PCHawk]

Jok scored points against minesota, he also couldn't stop Holins to save his life and had a bunch of ugly out of control drives that resulted in turnovers.

Yes Jok is a little bit better but neither is very good and Josh is as good of a passer and better defender. I knew saying that would ruffle some feathers but it's not like Jok is some kind of all conference player. He wouldn't see much time for most big ten teams.

Hollins abused everyone on our team so there's no reason to single out Jok. Oglesby probably has zero turnovers in his entire career while trying to create. That's not a good thing.

 

[PCHawk]

We'll have to agree to disagree on the passing, particularly around feeding the post. I personally think Pete does a better job in this area than anyone on the team, and it's primarily because he's drawing guys with his dribble/drive and then feeding the big guys rather than just standing out on the wing and trying to dump it down low. I think he has more turnovers because he's more aggressive on offense and many of those are because he still needs to tighten up his handles. Josh doesn't turn the ball over as much simply because he spends much more time just moving the ball around the perimeter. Again just my opinion, but I think the gap on defense has narrowed significantly to the point that Pete's offensive skillset just can't allow Fran to keep him on the bench in favor of JO for extended minutes. If we were talking "Jr Josh" shooting 40% from 3 that would be an entirely different story, but when 2-6 shooting is your best game in weeks I just don't see it.

I do agree that help side defense is still something Pete needs to work on, and he could also learn some things from JO in regards to movement on the wing and using screens to get open more often. He can tend to just "stand out there and wait" at times and is pretty dependant on ball rotation/reversal to get open looks from 3.

I agree with you. There were some times where Oglesby wowed me with some passes and i thought he can make passes that no one else on the team can. I don't remember the last time I've thought that sbout him but I've thought it a lot about Jok recently.

 

[FranklinHawk]

I agree with you. There were some times where Oglesby wowed me with some passes and i thought he can make passes that no one else on the team can. I don't remember the last time I've thought that sbout him but I've thought it a lot about Jok recently.

Yep, Pete and Woody put on a mini-clinic a couple games ago with how to play a 2-man game down low. They both had bad games Sunday no doubt about it, but I think in the bigger picture you have to continue to let Pete grow as the ceiling is much higher.