Fran Is Quantitatively Steve Alford Now

Fryowa said:
If i'm sticking to my guns then I guess I have to. I would say they shouldn't have been there, yeah.

I guess, where do you stop?

Just like in my Fran post, I didn't bring up average conference finish because Fran plays in a 14 team and Alford played in an 11 team league. They're not the same.

I struggle with a play in game being counted when for the previous 26 years that same scenario wouldn't have resulted in a tournament berth.
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Fair enough. Keep in mind that technically half of the 10/11/12 seed First Four teams would be in the tournament under the old rules.
 
Just to compare larger blocks of time/coaching...

Olson/Raveling/Davis
  • Coached 25 years
  • .647 overall record
  • .542 conference record
  • 16 NCAA berths
  • 22 NCAA wins
  • .88 NCAA wins per year
Alford/Lick/Fran
  • Coached 19.25 years
  • .551 overall record
  • .447 conference record
  • 6 NCAA berths (yes, I counted the fake game)
  • 3 NCAA wins
  • .155 NCAA wins per year. (I know this year isn't over but I'm banking on this stat being way worse after 2019 is done)
Iowa B-ball hasn't been spiffy in quite a while.
 
Hawkalum2002 said:
No he didn't, he took them to the final 16. The NIT expanded to 40 teams that season, we beat Valpo in a "play in" game, then beat ISU in the round of 32. Lost to Georgia Tech in the round of 16.

And I still can't figure out why folks think the "first four" game in the NCAA doesn't count either. When you are the 34th at large team in, you made the dance every single year whether they had 64, 65, or 68 teams.
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You're right. If the NIT elite eight is equivalent of getting zonked onstage, then that must make the NIT sweet sixteen the equivalent of not getting out contestant's row.

Davis once advanced to the NIT elite eight with a young team. They beat DePaul in a memorable game in Moline, then Ohio University before losing to Penn State. The Woodridge/Murray/Kingsbury/Bowen/Settles(when able) nucleus would make the NCAA'S the following two years.
 
Northside Hawk said:
You're right. If the NIT elite eight is equivalent of getting zonked onstage, then that must make the NIT sweet sixteen the equivalent of not getting out contestant's row.

Davis once advanced to the NIT elite eight with a young team. They beat DePaul in a memorable game in Moline, then Ohio University before losing to Penn State. The Woodridge/Murray/Kingsbury/Bowen/Settles(when able) nucleus would make the NCAA'S the following two years.
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I crashed and burned when I posted that. It was meant to make fun of Alford but sarcasm doesn’t always make it through the airwaves.

I definitely won’t be making comedy a full time gig.
 
Fryowa said:
I crashed and burned when I posted that. It was meant to make fun of Alford but sarcasm doesn’t always make it through the airwaves.

I definitely won’t be making comedy a full time gig.
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You're doing fine. You have some of the sharpest humor on this board. And any attempt to make fun of Alford is worthwhile.

People who takes themselves too seriously, or have higher opinions of themselves than warranted, are two of the easiest types to make fun of. And Alford qualifies on both fronts.

You're right Sarcasm is hard to get across in print. I would love to have a verbal conversation with some of the fellow posters in a bar. It easier to convey sarcasm verbally.
 
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Fryowa said:
Just to compare larger blocks of time/coaching...

Olson/Raveling/Davis
  • Coached 25 years
  • .647 overall record
  • .542 conference record
  • 16 NCAA berths
  • 22 NCAA wins
  • .88 NCAA wins per year
Alford/Lick/Fran
  • Coached 19.25 years
  • .551 overall record
  • .447 conference record
  • 6 NCAA berths (yes, I counted the fake game)
  • 3 NCAA wins
  • .155 NCAA wins per year. (I know this year isn't over but I'm banking on this stat being way worse after 2019 is done)
Iowa B-ball hasn't been spiffy in quite a while.
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Not sure Bowlsby was much better than Barta.

Ran Davis off and hired Alfraud. Hasn't been the same since.

Wanted Terry Allen. Couldn't/wouldn't pull the string on Stoops. Hired Ferentz.

Bowlsby was a careerist. Give him that. Too bad Barta doesn't have that same drive. ;)
 
Fryowa said:
I like Fran. I think he's a player's coach and that's huge. He sticks up for his players, and he's outspoken about calling out cheating shit stains like Calipari and Pitino.

But...

If we're being honest, he's a carbon copy of Alford after 8 years.

--Alford was .589 overall and .477 in B1G

--Fran is .586 overall and .481 in B1G.


--Alford took 3 teams to the NIT and 3 teams to the NCAA, getting past the first round once and making the E8.

--After 8 years Fran has taken 3 teams to the NIT and made 2 NCAAs getting to the 2nd round twice (that play in game doesn't count; I don't give a F what anyone says). Alford didn't get that joke of a chance at a play-in, so regardless, it's getting wiped out for this.

I'm sorry, I know Alford was a dick and everyone hated him, but if the Hawks don't got to the dance and win a couple games (not gonna happen), he's officially worse than the 'Fraud and it's time to go. While I think Daddy Warbucks is untouchable on the football side of things, I don't think Fran has quite as much security. Either way, it's up to the donors, not, Farta.

Let's go donors...tell Gary where the bear shits.
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You make some fair points. All things being equal I would pick Alford. Total arrogant dipshit but he's not a bad coach.

When he said Iowa was a football school he sounded like a baby but he was spot on. Iowa was spending every dollar they had on the football program and Alford was splitting court time with the women's team and volleyball to practice in what is an extremely muggy and poorly ventilated arena.

The Iowa basketball program was heading off of a cliff at that time. He just happened to be at the controls when it did. I get upset with the hiring of Lick in 2007 but he was probably the only guy willing to take the job at that time.
 
Northside Hawk said:
You're right. If the NIT elite eight is equivalent of getting zonked onstage, then that must make the NIT sweet sixteen the equivalent of not getting out contestant's row.

Davis once advanced to the NIT elite eight with a young team. They beat DePaul in a memorable game in Moline, then Ohio University before losing to Penn State. The Woodridge/Murray/Kingsbury/Bowen/Settles(when able) nucleus would make the NCAA'S the following two years.
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Pete Lisicky from PSU with just another in a long line of last second threes to down the Hawks over the years.
 
Yep, I've been viewing Fran's tenure as the same as Alford's the past couple of years. Very similar results to be sure. Other than the obvious fact that Alford is a douche, Fran basically gets a pass from some IMO, simply because he followed Lickliter and they view him as some white knight that came in and saved the day. In reality, he has struggled to do in any given year what Mr. Davis was able to do on near annual basis. So don't rip Mr. Davis and then turn around and praise Fran for the great job he's done..

As for the First Four - they are, in effect, play in games. It's two sets of teams playing for the right to be an 11 seed in the first round, and two sets of teams playing for the right to be a 16 seed in the first round. Doesn't matter what you call it. But if you want to look at it as 64 of the 68 teams having first round byes, go ahead. The round of 64 is currently called the FIRST ROUND.

But it doesn't really matter - 2 NCAA trips for Fran or 3.. He's not exactly outdoing Alford. And as someone else pointed out, Alford was hamstrung by worse facilities for practice and recruiting.

I know Fran inherited squat from Lick.. But look at Alford's first team here. He didn't exactly inherit a gym full of talent. The likes of Joe Fermino and Marcelo Gomes were getting meaningful minutes that year.
 
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1977Hawkeye said:
As for the First Four - they are, in effect, play in games. It's two sets of teams playing for the right to be an 11 seed in the first round, and two sets of teams playing for the right to be a 16 seed in the first round. Doesn't matter what you call it. But if you want to look at it as 64 of the 68 teams having first round byes, go ahead. The round of 64 is currently called the FIRST ROUND.
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Actually the round of 64 is currently called the second round.
 
Great stuff Fry! This is exactly why I said after last year Fran has to go. This simply isn't good enough, it isn't even close to good enough. The sad part is, this won't be a NCAA year, and if we can't make the NCAA this year, how in the world can we make it next year when Cook leaves? God, hopefully I'm wrong about that last part, unfortunately I doubt I am.

We have seen the best Fran and Alford can do at Iowa. That is have a couple years of making the NCAA and then being a NIT or worse team over half the time.
 
Contract... That's the reason he's not on the hot seat. That's it. He's pretty much untouchable after last yr after this year because of it. Maybe after the next yr he might be fireable but as of now if he's medicore (which is an improvement from last yr mind you) and that's it he's not on the hot seat. It'd take some sort of off the court crap to come out but he's not a bad guy and I'd never anticipate anything like that from him. So on the court results aside they are almost irrelevant to his job status at least for now..
 
That is a telling comparison. It just feels like Fran has done a better job because he took over from Lickliter who was in the process of completing a Thelma & Louise act on the program. But the data bears out the similarities.

Here's one more thing. It will be 40 years in March since Iowa shared a BT title, and almost 50 since they won a title outright (regular season, not fake tournament titles). Every original BT team except Northwestern has won at least 1 title (outright) since then, and each of those 8 have won multiple titles (including shared titles) since then. Iowa doesn't really have very much of a basketball tradition. That's an opinion, backed up by facts.
 
homes said:
That is a telling comparison. It just feels like Fran has done a better job because he took over from Lickliter who was in the process of completing a Thelma & Louise act on the program. But the data bears out the similarities.

Here's one more thing. It will be 40 years in March since Iowa shared a BT title, and almost 50 since they won a title outright (regular season, not fake tournament titles). Every original BT team except Northwestern has won at least 1 title (outright) since then, and each of those 8 have won multiple titles (including shared titles) since then. Iowa doesn't really have very much of a basketball tradition. That's an opinion, backed up by facts.
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Alford (2005-06) and Fran (2015-16) both had their chances and let it slip away. As big a Tom Davis guy as I am, he has a hand in this stat, too.

No Sweet 16 appearances in the last 20 years. ONE in the last 30.

Yup. Football school I guess.
 
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