Dear Kirk

[GesterHawk]

What if CJ got tackled (for loss, even) on one of those 3 runs? I don't think you have a point. Last time out spent on a tackle after a run that didn't earn a first down.

And the staff had to shuffle the FG team onto the field without a time out? Are you kidding me?

My point is that hypothetical arguments lack strength as they are hypothetical.

Some on this board wear rose colored glasses. Others wear blacked out glasses. Both impede the understanding of the other's point of view.

 

[HomerChampless]

So let's say Ferentz "figured out" these clock management issues that some of you are trying to substantiate.

Then what would you complain about? Seems like you're the crowd who will always find something. It's pretty clear KF has changed damn near everything about his program that the fans wanted him to change, but there's always this minority crowd of people who will find something.

KF apologist. Why does KF get all your love? Why do some hate GD so? Isn't GD a part of Iowa? I don't understand.

 

[GesterHawk]

If they clock it and save 5 seconds, they could have run all the plays they did and still have 7 seconds left. 7 seconds is enough time for a quick out as long as you get out of bounds. That would be your 1 more play.

So you would have them throwing on 4th down in hopes to get a first down?
Or does clocking it magically get them a 5th down?

Pitt was playing really good defense all day. We had just thrown 2 incompletions and had the QB get flushed out of the pocket. Throwing on 4th would have been just as risky as the FG in my opinion.

So with the last play of the game (potentially) you would have them playing for a first down instead of kicking for the win?

 

[DP5555]

KF apologist. Why does KF get all your love? Why do some hate GD so? Isn't GD a part of Iowa? I don't understand.

I'm far from a KF apologist. I was more than halfway off the bandwagon after last season and I was fed up with a lot of the things we have all been accustomed to seeing. However, it's painfully obvious that Kirk has become more open-minded. It's painfully obvious he's addressing the things that need to be addressed. The team is 3-0 and they're fighting for each other. They are playing Hawkeye football again. The way Kirk has led this team and the way they have battled has brought me back on the bandwagon. I'm enjoying it. It's too bad guys like you always have to look for something to complain about. Must be a miserable way to exist.

 

[ForeverHawk]

No, I couldn't let it go.

One extra play that is a quick out that gets out of bounds or is incomplete. BTW, a less than 57 yard field goal has a better chance of being made than a 57 yard field goal. Thank goodness there was no wind in Marshall's face.

Good Lord, let it die already. That night on that kick it had a 100% chance of going through the uprights and over the cross bar. And it wasn't close, probably would have been good from 62??? And if there was wind in his face, they probably wouldn't have attempted a 57 yard field goal and maybe KF would have played it differently, perhaps even included a play to clock it. It played out perfectly for exactly how it was suppose to end. Yes, KF has had clock management issues, but so have many coaches at many levels. But KF did not have any issues Saturday night!

 

[PCHawk]

So you would have them throwing on 4th down in hopes to get a first down?
Or does clocking it magically get them a 5th down?

Pitt was playing really good defense all day. We had just thrown 2 incompletions and had the QB get flushed out of the pocket. Throwing on 4th would have been just as risky as the FG in my opinion.

So with the last play of the game (potentially) you would have them playing for a first down instead of kicking for the win?

Nope. I would have kicked it. What on earth makes you think they could magically get a 5th down? I think that did actually happen in a game once though.

 

[GesterHawk]

Nope. I would have kicked it. What on earth makes you think they could magically get a 5th down? I think that did actually happen in a game once though.

You said if they clocked it they could run all the same plays and have 5 extra seconds to run another pass.
First down: clock
Second down: incomplete
Third down: incomplete
Fourth down: scramble
5th down: your sideline pass

And yes, the phantom 5th down has happened before.

 

[RocknRollface]

Looking at something like this in hindsight isn't the right way to do it.

Like I said , it's very simple protecting the clock is always the number one priority.

In this situation, as it turned out it may not have made a big difference but as a rule you save time and sacrifice the down.

 

[SpiderRico]

Has KF had issues in the past with clock management? Yep.

Did he on this night? In my opinion, no.

In a vacuum, you clock it and get as many plays as you can. Against a team like Pitt, coached by a freaking defensive jedi master like Narduzzi, you don't clock it. You keep going as quickly as you can so as not allow Narduzzi extra time to adjust personnel, play-calling, etc. You just keep going. The extra play isn't nearly as important as dictating the terms of the drive. Once you clock it, you let the defense catch its breath, its coaching staff time to adjust personnel, and you've lost the advantage somewhat....especially since there was only 52 seconds left when the drive started.

I like what KF decided to do there....but against a different team, in different conditions, etc., I might not. But I liked what he did in THIS game.

 

[PCHawk]

You said if they clocked it they could run all the same plays and have 5 extra seconds to run another pass.
First down: clock
Second down: incomplete
Third down: incomplete
Fourth down: scramble
5th down: your sideline pass

And yes, the phantom 5th down has happened before.

I also said you would obviously need enough to get a 1st down. We would have kicked the field goal on 1st down had we decided to run another play. What gives you better odds. Kicking a field goal from 57 on 4th. Or running a play with 6 seconds on the clock on 4th down. I think kicking the field goal is better but like I said, it would have been a tough decision.

 

[proudhawkfan21]

We got to run 3 plays since we didn't spike it. If we spike it we get to run 2 plays. It cost us 7 seconds, big deal, it actually got us and extra play trying to get a few yards. We weren't going for a first down, we wanted/needed 5 yard tops really.

This whole thread reminds me of the scene in MAJOR LEAGUE where all the guys in the stands are arguing about why a home run should or shouldn't have been a home run (too high...what does that mean?) ...and the last guy looks at the guys arguing and says....forget about it, it's gone lol forget about it boys...we won. Somehow we did ENOUGH right things to win...bottom line

 

[RocknRollface]

Has KF had issues in the past with clock management? Yep.

Did he on this night? In my opinion, no.

In a vacuum, you clock it and get as many plays as you can. Against a team like Pitt, coached by a freaking defensive jedi master like Narduzzi, you don't clock it. You keep going as quickly as you can so as not allow Narduzzi extra time to adjust personnel, play-calling, etc. You just keep going. The extra play isn't nearly as important as dictating the terms of the drive. Once you clock it, you let the defense catch its breath, its coaching staff time to adjust personnel, and you've lost the advantage somewhat....especially since there was only 52 seconds left when the drive started.

I like what KF decided to do there....but against a different team, in different conditions, etc., I might not. But I liked what he did in THIS game.

i do understand that the O has an advantage there and that probably did work in our favor, but man you're playing with fire there not stopping the clock.

 

[jldhawk]

We were playing for a FG and only needed about 5-10 more yards. Clock it and you only get to run 2 more plays. We didn't clock it and guess what.....we ran 3 more plays.

People are right that KF has traditionally been terrible at CLock management, this wasn't one of them. Time wasn't the issue, making sure we got 5-10 more yards was the issue.

if we had that 7 seconds we could have ran another play getting much closer instead of needing a 57 yarder.

 

[PCHawk]

if we had that 7 seconds we could have ran another play getting much closer instead of needing a 57 yarder.

Yea but that extra play would be 4th down. Like i said earlier, do you run another play and risk time running out or not getting a 1st down, or do you kick the 57 yarder right there? He probably kicks it there anyway. Of course that's all hindsight so it doesn't really matter. The true question is would you rather lose 1st down or lose 5 seconds? It's a tough decision and that's why this thread is 11 pages and counting.

 

[HawkeyesWin]

I'm confused. Did we win the game? Did we find a way to win or does one of the greatest endings in a while not count because a poster doesn't like that we didn't spike the ball.

Regardless of whether we did everything right or wrong we found a way to win.

I am a certified expert in clock management having won several close games in EA's NCAA Football. Its EXACTLY like real life where everything happens the same way every time and there is only one correct answer.

 

[MelroseHawkins]

And nobody gives KF the credit of actually having the kahoonas to attempt the 57 yard field goal which possibly he may not have in previous years. There was a time I think Ferentz would have been fine taking an knee and taking his chances in OT. Give him credit for taking the chance on a low probability kick that could have been blocked or potentially returned. He took a chance this time & it payed off.

I have to wonder how much the previous fake FG's played into the Pitt coaches heads.

 

[HawkInATX]

Can clock management be better? Yes. Always and forever on every coaching staff and team there is room for improvement (to wit: Urban Meyer's horrific management this weekend, abysmal).

Now, you all wanna talk probabilities in a game that is inherently stochastic (random). The fact that enough people are arguing both sides of this issue and have (for the most part) compelling reasons is evidence that this particular game and drive is on or near a probabilistic cut point, where the chance of success is approximately equal between clocking it or running the play. It becomes a coin flip. No matter which decision KF had made, people would have argued it was wrong and others defend his decision.

While I understand the need to be reflective and critical of mistakes, even in a win, I think that it's not at all productive to spend a ton of time over-analyzing what amounts to a coin flip (and one that can't ever be repeated to test which outcome is better).

 

[HawkeyesWin]

And nobody gives KF the credit of actually having the kahoonas to attempt the 57 yard field goal which possibly he may not have in previous years. There was a time I think Ferentz would have been fine taking an knee and taking his chances in OT. Give him credit for taking the chance on a low probability kick that could have been blocked or potentially returned. He took a chance this time & it payed off.

I have to wonder how much the previous fake FG's played into the Pitt coaches heads.

Exactly right about kicking that FG. Taking chances like that is the wrong decision. Best to spike that ball so we get another play. I mean there's only one right decision in that situation.

 

[PCHawk]

Another what if scenario. What if we were 15 yards farther back or there were 10 seconds less on the clock. In those situations you absolutely have to clock it. I highly doubt Kirk would have and it would have cost us a chance at a long field goal. From watching him for 17 years I can all but guarantee his decision wasn't based on field position in relation to time left or not allowing their defense to sub. He just struggles in these situations and in this exact instance he doesn't look real bad because it was a 50/50 call and we won the game. The other time out was called perfectly though. There was no hesitation at all.

 

[deanvogs]

Yea but that extra play would be 4th down. Like i said earlier, do you run another play and risk time running out or not getting a 1st down, or do you kick the 57 yarder right there? He probably kicks it there anyway. Of course that's all hindsight so it doesn't really matter. The true question is would you rather lose 1st down or lose 5 seconds? It's a tough decision and that's why this thread is 11 pages and counting.

It only took 10 pages or so, but the decision is actually being discussed rationally. With the situation as it was, I don't think either decision is a mistake. There are pros and cons to Clocking it, and pros and cons to not clocking it, and only hindsight can really prove either right or wrong.