ForeverHawk
Well-Known Member
Freddy just did a 180. He went from criticizing Payne to now Lick's system. Isn't Lick's system the root of all frustrations? Freddy what has happened to you? You are not the poster I remember all these years!
Cully Payne vs. Jeff Horner and Dean Oliver - Freshman Seasons
- Thread starter storminspank
- Start date
FreddyBrown
Moderator
Spanky, Spanky, Spanky... Guilty of selective stat usage in the first degree. Shame on you. ;-)
ForeverHawk
Well-Known Member
Freddy has become the Darth Vader of HawkeyeNation. He once was one of us until he joined the dark side!!!
FreddyBrown
Moderator
FH, I'm not even close to the Dark Side. Those guys are easily identifiable. I simply stopped viewing the state of the program through the B&G tinted glasses and started seeing it for what it is again. It only took a few weeks of the season to jolt me back to reality.
storminspank
Justin VanLaere
Iowa has shown it can play defense under Lickliter. See Year 1.
On your second point, I'm confused a bit. Are you saying that Cully playing against the Big Ten is different than Horner and Deano playing against the Big Ten?
When Dean Oliver's #24 ranked Iowa Hawkeyes went into the #16 MSU Spartans house in Oliver's frosh year, Iowa lost by 11. Oliver played 28 minutes, finished with 8 points, 3/11, 0/2 from 3 pt land, 2 A, 1 TO, 1 Steal.
Jeff Horner took his Hawkeyes into an unranked MSU arena where Iowa lost by 28. Horner played 31 minutes, finished with 6 points, 2/7, 2/5 3pFG, 1 A, 3 TO, 0 St.
Compare that to what Cully Payne did tonight with a 7-11 (1-4 BT) Iowa team at the Breslin Center against the #7 team in the nation. 30 minutes, 12 points, 5/13, 2/5 3pt, 2 A, 3 TO, 0 st.
One game doesn't mean anything. But Cully proved tonight that he can play with the big boys. He was more effective at the Breslin Center than was Oliver or Horner with a less talented team and got his team closer to the win than either of his counterparts.
I certainly don't think the level of competition is something to bring up in this discussion, Cully has answered that.
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ShadasRevenge
Well-Known Member
Two reasons come to mind:
1. Defense.
2. The quality of the competition.
I think it really comes down to you having a different view of how good Cully and Brust will be at running the team and defending opposing guards, and maybe a different sense of what kind talent it takes to compete at the highest levels of college basketball.
You may be right that Cully and/or Brust (and I'm very optimistic about how Brust may contribute in other ways) are more than adequate for Lick's system. If that's the case, then perhaps part of what I'm saying is that Lick's system isn't well suited to competing at the highest level of college basketball on a consistent basis. I think you need terrific athletes to do that. Hickory High only comes around once in a blue moon--and even they had Jimmy Chitwood.
I don't think his Butler teams that went deep into the tournament had what anyone would consider terrific athletes. Is that not the highest level of college basketball?
storminspank
Justin VanLaere
FreddyBrown
Moderator
You say one game doesn't mean a thing, and yet you use a single game from each player--in different seasons, with different teams around and against them, to conclude that Cully is their equal?
Spanky, I respect your passion and for the most part your knowledge of the game, but I recognize a disease in you that I have also suffered from in the past and will again in the future: You lock on to some kid who's committed to the Hawkeyes and convince yourself that he can play with anyone. You've done it with Tucker and you're doing it with Payne and Brust. I hope you turn out to be right, but I just don't have as high an opinion as you do of Payne or Tucker, and the "data" you're using to support your contention doesn't really prove the point.
Somewhere along the line the eyes have to play a role in the analysis. My eyes tell me that Cully's limitations as an athlete playing against more athletic competition cause him to make a lot of bad judgments and force things--particularly the jump passes and the bullet passes. I expect him to get better and use better judgment over time, and it will help him to have more and better options (like Brust) to pass it to, but I don't believe he is or will be as good a player as Horner, Oliver, or some other point guards Iowa has had in the past. Horner had the advantage of size, Oliver the advantage of quickness over Payne, and I think both had better vision. I do think that if we can give Cully a backcourt mate who can come in, run with the Kalin Lucases of the league from time to time and not get used by them on defense, as a team we'll be much better off.
I'll say it again, however: We would be at least two levels deeper into the Dante's Inferno of basketball if we didn't have Cully this season, so I'm damned glad we have him.
storminspank
Justin VanLaere
My point is that Cully is comparable to Horner and Oliver in their freshman season with less to work with that either of the aforementioned players did.
You said something about the level of competition, so that's why I tried to bring up an apples to apples to apples comparison (which was actually favored towards Horner/Oliver as the MSU Cully played his frosh season was better than the two those guys played). That's why the one game comparison was brought up.
Defense needs to improve, but I like Cully's game.
You said something about the level of competition, so that's why I tried to bring up an apples to apples to apples comparison (which was actually favored towards Horner/Oliver as the MSU Cully played his frosh season was better than the two those guys played). That's why the one game comparison was brought up.
Defense needs to improve, but I like Cully's game.
Storm, I think the point some of us are trying to make is that you can like Payne's game but still think we need some help next year. You are saying that Tucker and Brust can provide that next year. I saw Tucker this year. Even putting aside the off the court issues he was not a PG. The UNI game proved that to me. So you are counting Brust to be able to give you 10-15 minutes a game at PG as true freshman for a kid who is labelled a combo guard. I haven't seen him play but I have my doubts. I think we need somebody who can compete with Cully and push him. I think anybody you find right now will have some holes in their game but it would be nice to find somebody who can complement Cully's strengths. Namely plays great defense, handles the ball and can set up his teammates a little better.
Look I love Cully's heart and his jump shot. I just think another body would solidify depth and take a lot of pressure off of Cully.
Warhawks77
Well-Known Member
Re: Something's missing, Spanky...
Without looking to see if TO's were posted, I'm guessing Cully is better then they were.
Without looking to see if TO's were posted, I'm guessing Cully is better then they were.
Warhawks77
Well-Known Member
yes both are Mason City alum. Great few years of basketball. I believe Oliver played on a team that had two other centers go D-I as well. 3 Div 1 on the same team.
Warhawks77
Well-Known Member
And I was wrong again. However, better players make getting stats a little easier.
When the Hawks confront a backcourt of Lucas,Allen,Summers and Luscious, we need another quick guy who can guard on the perimeter. When Eric May is isolated vs Luscious, I cringed.
Brust is not the answer at pg. He is JaBo-like...nice ballhandler but not a pure pg.
I still say we need to find a scholly, add a Chauncey Leslie type to share the load with Cully and go out and make the NIT next year....otherwise, Lick does not want it bad enough to retain.
Brust is not the answer at pg. He is JaBo-like...nice ballhandler but not a pure pg.
I still say we need to find a scholly, add a Chauncey Leslie type to share the load with Cully and go out and make the NIT next year....otherwise, Lick does not want it bad enough to retain.
hawkdoctor
Well-Known Member
Freddy, that's exactly what I was thinking. Oliver has significant more speed and was a much better defender. If Culley can turn into 80% of what Oliver was I'll be happy.
Warhawks77
Well-Known Member
I agree. We need players that can shoot well enough to get the perimeter stretched and then just athletic and agile enough to pump fake drive the ball baseline for baskets or kick outs to another player that will hit the shot or penetrate to get the defense to shift once again. I love Wink can shoot the three, just imagine what he would be like if he had some other attribute like speed quickness, jumping etc. He would create some other serious issues for defenses. I am looking forward to seeing how some more athletic shooters will fit into this system.
DuffMan
Well-Known Member
Count me in as someone who's reveresed course in regards to Culley. I stated in a previous thread that I wasn't that excited by his game but after looking at everything I think it's fair to say you can metnion him with Oliver and Horner in the same breath.
He's a much better shooter than either of those guys and with due respect for those who say he can't dish the ball I think he has good vision as well. It's hard to judge his passing skills as he doesn't have the same supporting cast those otehrs have but he has been making some nice passes into the post (the oop to Fuller and a few passes to posts on the slip screen).
He needs to stop leaving his feet, learn to controll his emotions a bit, and get a better understanding of the game flow in general but, those are all things he can and should learn.
He's a much better shooter than either of those guys and with due respect for those who say he can't dish the ball I think he has good vision as well. It's hard to judge his passing skills as he doesn't have the same supporting cast those otehrs have but he has been making some nice passes into the post (the oop to Fuller and a few passes to posts on the slip screen).
He needs to stop leaving his feet, learn to controll his emotions a bit, and get a better understanding of the game flow in general but, those are all things he can and should learn.
FreddyBrown
Moderator
Why not throw McCabe in there as well? LOL People are getting far too carried away with reports that Marble and McCabe are playing "point something" on their high school teams.
Brust, IMO, could be a better point gaurd than Cully, but playing the point would also somewhat detract from the other things he can do for Iowa from the wing. He also can't provide the quickness, strength or defensive ability we need to deal with the kinds of PG's we see almost every night out in the Big Ten.
ddiction
Well-Known Member
Cully's assist totals are actually a bit misleading for a couple of reasons. First of all, game pace. The Hawkeyes play one of the slowest-paced games in D1. That equals fewer possessions and hence fewer opportunities for assists. Second, since Iowa takes a much larger percentage of its shot attempts from three-point land than most teams do, Cully's targets are taking lower-percentage shots and consequently, there is less of a chance that one of his passes to an open player will result in an assist than if he were on a more inside-oriented team.
