Cully Payne vs. Jeff Horner and Dean Oliver - Freshman Seasons

storminspank

storminspank

Justin VanLaere
Player Min/G PPG FG% 3FG% FT% APG RPG SPG
Dean Oliver 25.1 8.8 37.4 31.7 76.2 4.2 2.5 1.4
Jeff Horner 35.4 8.2 33.2 27.7 76.7 4.5 4.4 4.3
Cully Payne 32 8.4 38 34.6 64.9 3.7 2.6 .53
 
I am shocked Horner played 34 mins. as a frosh. I would have thought Payne would lead that category. Pretty comparable between the three with all the stats!
 
CullyvsDeanovsHorner.jpg
 
The stats are interesting, but anyone with eyes would rather hang the future success of the program on what they saw of Dean or Jeff as freshmen than on Cully. The stats also speak primarily to what happens on the offensive end, and I think both Dean and Jeff were better defenders than Cully.

Don't get me wrong--Cully is a Godsend. Where would we be without him? There is no one else to make plays on a consistent basis. Jeff and Dean probably had more help, but whether they did or not, both looked like better players as freshmen than does Cully. We're also talking about two of the better PG's ever to play at Iowa, so the fact Cully doesn't look like he's quite in their league is no slam on him.

Cully has a lot of guts and toughness and he will get better. But the top priority for this staff should be to find him some help beyond the guys we've already signed, and the sooner the better.
 
Brust can and will play point as well as Marble. Help is coming!!! I know you want a playmaker pg, but that will not happen unless somebody leaves the program. And then some will complain about that!!!
 
FB - you pretty much helped my argument.
Horner and Deano were two of the better PG ever to play at Iowa. Both had better supporting cast than Cully did. Yet Cully has been able to put equal or better numbers than they did in their freshman year.

The point is this - Cully is a damn fine PG and I think some Hawk fans need to realize he's a legit Big Ten point guard who is doing exactly what Lickliter wants him to do out there. (Well, maybe sans the jumping baseline pass).

Play making PG? Horner wasn't one, yet he was great at Iowa. Payne is that sort of guard and there's nothing he needs to apologize for in that regard. He's gutty, he's got some swagger, and he plays tough. He needs to get better on the D end, but I am happy with what we have at the PG slot. Brust coming in will only help solidify it, and when Tucker comes back he can be the emergency PG.
 
Actually the lack of help tends to cut the other way, Spanky. Cully's going to get the lion's share of any assists because he'll have the ball the lion's share of the time.

Horner wasn't a playmaker? That's news to me. I didn't say he wasn't a playmaker. He wasn't exceptionally quick and he wasn't an exceptional defensive player, however. Those are two elements we desperately need to add to our backcourt if we hope to actually compete in this league.
 
Hey Stormin - do you think you could add each players TOs & TPs as well since they are about the only thing missing? Nice touch with the bar graph btw.
 
FreddyBrown said:
Actually the lack of help tends to cut the other way, Spanky. Cully's going to get the lion's share of any assists because he'll have the ball the lion's share of the time.

Horner wasn't a playmaker? That's news to me. I didn't say he wasn't a playmaker. He wasn't exceptionally quick and he wasn't an exceptional defensive player, however. Those are two elements we desperately need to add to our backcourt if we hope to actually compete in this league.
Click to expand...
I'm one of the biggest Horner homer out there, and there's no way I'd classify him as a playmaker. He's not the kind of guy people are pining for (quick, slashing PG that can get to the hole) - that's not Horner. Horner was a game manager, great passer, great BB IQ, great shooter, solid D. Cully is more like Horner than not.
 
Something's missing, Spanky...

I don't see where your stats reference turnovers, which is a key stat used to evaluate PG play. Can you dig that one up for comparison? I don't know, but it might be illuminating.
 
Fun debate--but great passing is a form of playmaking, isn't it Spanky? Cully cannot carry Horner's jock as a passer at the same point in their careers. He has some very bad habits in his passing style that didn't afflict Horner or Oliver to nearly the same degree.
 
By the way, you can be a "good fan" and not turn a blind eye to the limitations of your players. Some people (and I've sometimes been one of them) have a habit of picking out a player and building him up to such an unrealistic degree that a failure to meet those expectations results in a harder fall, including the player catching more flack from other fans who buy into the overhype.

I'm trying to think of a specific example in recent memory... ;-)
 
Gotta give the edge to Oliver. I remember watching a game with him running the show on the road at OSU. He was clutch and made all the big plays in that game. Just a great energy and leadership on the floor.

weren't both Horner and Oliver from Mason City?
 
Turnovers per Game:
Oliver - 2.3
Horner - 2.74
Payne - 3.1

A/TO Ratio:
Oliver - 1.81
Horner - 1.64
Payne - 1.19

Total Points (I think);
Oliver - 273
Horner - 254
Payne - 159 (on pace for 269 with 1 BTT game)
 
FreddyBrown said:
Fun debate--but great passing is a form of playmaking, isn't it Spanky? Cully cannot carry Horner's jock as a passer at the same point in their careers. He has some very bad habits in his passing style that didn't afflict Horner or Oliver to nearly the same degree.
Click to expand...

I agree.
I'm not the one clamoring for a different, more athletic guy that can create his own shot and get to the hole at will like most people on here.

My point is pretty simple.
Cully Payne is suited just fine to have a nice career at Iowa and be the type of player Jeff Horner was. Will be better? Likely not. But he's got a decent game, he's gritty, very coachable, and is the guy Lick wants running this team.

I don't understand the need to go out and get a different PG, esp with Brust coming in and Tucker here as well.
 
I gotta agree with Spank on this. I believe it would be more difficult to have good stats on a team that is not very good. Speaks volumes for what Payne has done compared to Horner and Oliver!
 
I dont think Payne will be as good as Oliver or Horner but he is a lot better than people give him credit for. He doesn't get to shoot the ball as much as he could because Lickliter is holding him back - just wants him to run the team. Cully is going to be a great Hawkeye once he is done at Iowa. Storminspank is right on the money with this one. Some stats lie these dont.
 
Payne is turning it over more than Horner and Deano did because he has to carry more of the burden than either of those guys did. That's saying a lot because both of those guys did a lot for their teams.
 
storminspank said:
I agree.

I don't understand the need to go out and get a different PG, esp with Brust coming in and Tucker here as well.
Click to expand...

Two reasons come to mind:

1. Defense.

2. The quality of the competition.

I think it really comes down to you having a different view of how good Cully and Brust will be at running the team and defending opposing guards, and maybe a different sense of what kind of talent it takes to compete at the highest levels of college basketball.

You may be right that Cully and/or Brust (and I'm very optimistic about how Brust may contribute in other ways) are more than adequate for Lick's system. If that's the case, then perhaps part of what I'm saying is that Lick's system isn't well suited to competing at the highest level of college basketball on a consistent basis. I think you need terrific athletes to do that. Hickory High only comes around once in a blue moon--and even they had Jimmy Chitwood. :)
 
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