Why do the republicans/conservatives have this love for Putin and Russia???

MelroseHawkins said:
Honest question. I've heard of these bomb shelters. Are they in most homes or the basements of apartments. How does it actually work over there? Do they have bomb shelters like some have tornado shelters over here?

God peace citizens of Ukraine.
Click to expand...
The key word is some. We can't even get strapped rafters and wall supports to prevent deaths in homes or tornado shelters for big warehouses.
 
HawkGold said:
Starting with the most sophisticated.

4 or 5 cities in Ukraine have subways. Only been in Kyiv subway. It is HUNDREDS of feet deep. Up to 350 feet. In the cold war the US did almost NOTHING to protect people in the event of nuclear war. The Soviets at least did. Kyiv's system can shelter 100,000 people. It's incredible. Used it many times. Here is a pic of the stairs.
View attachment 8851
Click to expand...
Wow!
 
For those who want more info on why we (the world) are in a difficult situation and going back to the OT and why Putin talks about de-Nazification. Previously I talked about Biden and oil.

Let me explain. In the US we have the far right. I would include in that starting at the center of left and right the following and then moving more right to right extremism.

1. Moderate to Liberal Republicans (we really don't see liberal Republicans anymore) Such as Ike, Nixon, Rockefeller, and Sweitzer. Remember when Reagan alienated some Republicans by wanting Sweitzer as VP?

2. Standard Conservatives (everyday Joe's and Jane's)

3. Hard right (basically normal people) who joined MAGA and may have gone to march in DC and maybe thought something would happen and they wanted to see it or if a groundswell to join to some degree. Lot's of religious people in this one who don't like and strongly object to current social agendas.

4. Extreme Right - Proud Boys, KKK and others

5. Extreme Right Militias. There are more of these

4 and 5 really don't make up a lot of people as a percentage, but the numbers are significant. 5 is about 15,000 to 20,000 in the US from about 300 groups.

In US, Trump to become elected embraced 3,4 and 5s and got enough 2s to go with him to win an election. He lost enough 2s to lose an election. Trump needed 4s to win and got them.

In Ukraine, the 4's include what are called Svoboda and Right Sector. Their numbers are about 25,000 with some overlap. That is in a country of 44,000,000. Which would equate to about 150,000 in the US. The militias are I would guess under 5,000. The militias for years were the best trained and equipped fighting forces in Ukraine and were trained by US forces including the 101st Airborne. Why? They were better organized than the Ukraine military after Crimea was taken and the Donbas War started. 13,000 people including 400 children were killed from 2014 to 2022 before the current war started. Early on mostly fight by US trained militias including AZOV Battalion currently defending Mariupol (not all) and Donbas Battalion. AZOV is clearly NEO NAZI. Other militias do exist. The political groups Right Sector and Svoboda are clearly NEO NAZI.

Though smallish, pro-west politicians since the mid 2000s have needed the Right Sector and Svoboda to make a coalition to move toward the EU, NATO and just natural ties to the west. Russia and the West clearly have impacted elections.

In 2004/5 the Orange Revolution was supported by the west. It is my contention though it was a grass rooted movement to kick out Russian dominance and corruption is was in part fueled by the west.

The Maidan Revolution was another uprising to kick out a newly elected pro Russian President. The Russians for sure corrupted the election. The West clearly was pushing Maidan. After this Crimea was seized and the Donbas War started and YES there were Russian troops involved in both. An attempt was made to also take over Odesa, a beautiful port/vacation city, but it failed culminating in a massacre of pro Russian people.

All the stuff previously mentioned such as Biden/gas/oil, Russia needing oil to stay alive, the terrain to defend Russia, NATO being a perceived threat are real. This is a mess.

Putin thought Ukraine would crumble on the battlefield. He overestimated his forces.

Now the De-Nazification rhetoric is really being pushed. Putin if he can will hunt down every Svoboda, Right Sector, and AZOV member until he kills them all. Putin grew up in the shadow of post WW2 where Hitler devastated Russia early in the war. He is armed nuclearly to the teeth. Take out oil and his mafia-style government collapses.

The link below tells the story from a Russian point of view. It is done by Oliver Stone who I don't particularly like, but he is good entertainment. It is long but worth looking at. My opinion is that he way overdoes the extreme right in Ukraine, but does show Russian motivations and concerns. Stone is for sure biased in his take on Odesa, but the basics are pretty accurate.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.
www.youtube.com www.youtube.com

I was personally in Kyiv during some of the clips in the video. My apartment was right there. The embassy told Americans to stay away, but I had a front row seat and took my camera for a walk. Getting through barricades was an interesting experience as well with the car.
 
Fryowa said:
You're a fuckin' idiot if you think all or even a majority of Republicans (or any group in America) have a "love for Putin and Russia."

You are completely embarrassing yourself showing that sort of idiocy.

At best you're just ignorant, but I wouldn't want to be either one.
Click to expand...
He is. Ask biden what his love is of that region. Hint: has to do with family $$
 
HawkGold said:
For those who want more info on why we (the world) are in a difficult situation and going back to the OT and why Putin talks about de-Nazification. Previously I talked about Biden and oil.

Let me explain. In the US we have the far right. I would include in that starting at the center of left and right the following and then moving more right to right extremism.

1. Moderate to Liberal Republicans (we really don't see liberal Republicans anymore) Such as Ike, Nixon, Rockefeller, and Sweitzer. Remember when Reagan alienated some Republicans by wanting Sweitzer as VP?

2. Standard Conservatives (everyday Joe's and Jane's)

3. Hard right (basically normal people) who joined MAGA and may have gone to march in DC and maybe thought something would happen and they wanted to see it or if a groundswell to join to some degree. Lot's of religious people in this one who don't like and strongly object to current social agendas.

4. Extreme Right - Proud Boys, KKK and others

5. Extreme Right Militias. There are more of these

4 and 5 really don't make up a lot of people as a percentage, but the numbers are significant. 5 is about 15,000 to 20,000 in the US from about 300 groups.

In US, Trump to become elected embraced 3,4 and 5s and got enough 2s to go with him to win an election. He lost enough 2s to lose an election. Trump needed 4s to win and got them.

In Ukraine, the 4's include what are called Svoboda and Right Sector. Their numbers are about 25,000 with some overlap. That is in a country of 44,000,000. Which would equate to about 150,000 in the US. The militias are I would guess under 5,000. The militias for years were the best trained and equipped fighting forces in Ukraine and were trained by US forces including the 101st Airborne. Why? They were better organized than the Ukraine military after Crimea was taken and the Donbas War started. 13,000 people including 400 children were killed from 2014 to 2022 before the current war started. Early on mostly fight by US trained militias including AZOV Battalion currently defending Mariupol (not all) and Donbas Battalion. AZOV is clearly NEO NAZI. Other militias do exist. The political groups Right Sector and Svoboda are clearly NEO NAZI.

Though smallish, pro-west politicians since the mid 2000s have needed the Right Sector and Svoboda to make a coalition to move toward the EU, NATO and just natural ties to the west. Russia and the West clearly have impacted elections.

In 2004/5 the Orange Revolution was supported by the west. It is my contention though it was a grass rooted movement to kick out Russian dominance and corruption is was in part fueled by the west.

The Maidan Revolution was another uprising to kick out a newly elected pro Russian President. The Russians for sure corrupted the election. The West clearly was pushing Maidan. After this Crimea was seized and the Donbas War started and YES there were Russian troops involved in both. An attempt was made to also take over Odesa, a beautiful port/vacation city, but it failed culminating in a massacre of pro Russian people.

All the stuff previously mentioned such as Biden/gas/oil, Russia needing oil to stay alive, the terrain to defend Russia, NATO being a perceived threat are real. This is a mess.

Putin thought Ukraine would crumble on the battlefield. He overestimated his forces.

Now the De-Nazification rhetoric is really being pushed. Putin if he can will hunt down every Svoboda, Right Sector, and AZOV member until he kills them all. Putin grew up in the shadow of post WW2 where Hitler devastated Russia early in the war. He is armed nuclearly to the teeth. Take out oil and his mafia-style government collapses.

The link below tells the story from a Russian point of view. It is done by Oliver Stone who I don't particularly like, but he is good entertainment. It is long but worth looking at. My opinion is that he way overdoes the extreme right in Ukraine, but does show Russian motivations and concerns. Stone is for sure biased in his take on Odesa, but the basics are pretty accurate.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.
www.youtube.com www.youtube.com

I was personally in Kyiv during some of the clips in the video. My apartment was right there. The embassy told Americans to stay away, but I had a front row seat and took my camera for a walk. Getting through barricades was an interesting experience as well with the car.
Click to expand...
US MEDIA THROWS AROUND THE TERM FAR RIGHT OR RIGHT WING EXTREMIST A BUNCH, BUT THE PEOPLE WHO THEY CALL THAT ARE BY AND LARGE NOT THAT FAR RIGHT AT ALL ON A LOT OF ISSUES. IN 1992 THE DEMOCRATS BASICALLY MORPHED INTO THE REPUBLICAN ECONOMIC POLICY BUT WITH 3-6% HIGHER TAXES. THINGS LIKE TRADE PROTECTIONISM OR CURTAILING IMMIGRATION TO BOLSTER WAGES ARE FIRMLY DISREPUTED BY BOTH WINGS OF THE UNIPARTY NOW, BUT THOSE ARE LEFTIST POSITIONS. MANY OF THESE SO-CALLED FAR RIGHT PEOPLE LIKED ORANGE MAN'S PROMISES OF A STRONG MILITARY THAT STAYED CLOSE TO HOME AND THESE PEOPLE DON'T WANT TO PAY FOR FORWARD BASES ALL OVER THE FREAKING WORLD. THAT IS ALSO A LEFTIST POSITION.

PROBLEM IS THE PURVEYORS OF MEDIA ANSWER TO THE AMERICAN OLIGARCHS, WHO WANT MASSIVE IMPORTATION OF GOODS SO THEY ARE FREE OF AMERICAN REGULATIONS ON ENVIRONMENTAL AND EMPLOYMENT LAW. THEY WANT IMMIGRANTS TO DRIVE DOWN WAGES AND PUSH UP DOMESTIC CONSUMPTION. THEY WANT A GIANT DEFENSE FORCE TO FUNNEL DOLLARS INTO THE MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX.

MOST AMERICANS WHO THINK THEY ARE "PROGRESSIVE" OR "LEFT LEANING" ARE ACTUALLY JUST PARROTING OLIGARCH PROPAGANDA THAT IS EXTREMELY RIGHT WING, BUT THEY LACK THE MENTAL CAPACITY TO UNDERSTAND WHAT HAS HAPPENED.

SORRY TO HIJACK YOUR THREAD FOR THAT, YOUR INSIGHTS ARE VERY INTERESTING.
 
okeefe4prez said:
US MEDIA THROWS AROUND THE TERM FAR RIGHT OR RIGHT WING EXTREMIST A BUNCH, BUT THE PEOPLE WHO THEY CALL THAT ARE BY AND LARGE NOT THAT FAR RIGHT AT ALL ON A LOT OF ISSUES. IN 1992 THE DEMOCRATS BASICALLY MORPHED INTO THE REPUBLICAN ECONOMIC POLICY BUT WITH 3-6% HIGHER TAXES. THINGS LIKE TRADE PROTECTIONISM OR CURTAILING IMMIGRATION TO BOLSTER WAGES ARE FIRMLY DISREPUTED BY BOTH WINGS OF THE UNIPARTY NOW, BUT THOSE ARE LEFTIST POSITIONS. MANY OF THESE SO-CALLED FAR RIGHT PEOPLE LIKED ORANGE MAN'S PROMISES OF A STRONG MILITARY THAT STAYED CLOSE TO HOME AND THESE PEOPLE DON'T WANT TO PAY FOR FORWARD BASES ALL OVER THE FREAKING WORLD. THAT IS ALSO A LEFTIST POSITION.

PROBLEM IS THE PURVEYORS OF MEDIA ANSWER TO THE AMERICAN OLIGARCHS, WHO WANT MASSIVE IMPORTATION OF GOODS SO THEY ARE FREE OF AMERICAN REGULATIONS ON ENVIRONMENTAL AND EMPLOYMENT LAW. THEY WANT IMMIGRANTS TO DRIVE DOWN WAGES AND PUSH UP DOMESTIC CONSUMPTION. THEY WANT A GIANT DEFENSE FORCE TO FUNNEL DOLLARS INTO THE MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX.

MOST AMERICANS WHO THINK THEY ARE "PROGRESSIVE" OR "LEFT LEANING" ARE ACTUALLY JUST PARROTING OLIGARCH PROPAGANDA THAT IS EXTREMELY RIGHT WING, BUT THEY LACK THE MENTAL CAPACITY TO UNDERSTAND WHAT HAS HAPPENED.

SORRY TO HIJACK YOUR THREAD FOR THAT, YOUR INSIGHTS ARE VERY INTERESTING.
Click to expand...
No problem but maybe you are SHOUTING? :)

Got tired of typing, but I see what you are saying. I didn't go into more details.

I first became acquainted with the term Oligarch actually in Ukraine. I've seen a couple of Bentleys in the US in my life. In Kyiv, they are all over the place. And lot's of LADAs. I've had Ukrainian farm tours in the US. Had 2 farms back to back that controlled 1.2 million acres.

I see a lot of conservatives also quoting oligarch policies such as on taxes and judicial appointments. Therefore the "frog in the boiling pot" mentality. But don't disagree with the progressive comment.

Back to the subject, my point on Ukraine is to try and educate. As a group, we Americans tend to see the world a lot alike and yet so different than the rest of the world.

It's easy to say, "Putin is a tyrant and a madman" which he is. There is a rhyme and a reason for his actions though.

I look at it this way sort of. The Big Russian Bear does what Big Bears do. The West poked the Big Bear with sticks and really didn't do much to domesticate the Big Bear. Now the Bear is trashing a country.

Ronald Reagan poked that Bear back after KLM 700 was shot down by the Soviets. He didn't attempt to understand Soviet/Russian culture which due to history is extremely and I mean extremely paranoid. We were a lot closer to WW3 then than people realize.

The US didn't sign promises to Ukraine of military intervention. We did say we'd help, though it was vague.

Did you see Putins rally in Moscow? A cross between Hitler in front of a crowd, The Boss (singer), Holiday on Ice, Dr Phil, and the Super Bowl Halftime Show.
 
HuckFinn said:
Oh boy! Another conspiracy theory! Did your brother-in-law’s babysitter’s cousin’ boyfriend document this one for you?
Click to expand...
You mean this?
www.reuters.com

What Hunter Biden did on the board of Ukrainian energy company Burisma

KIEV (Reuters) - During his time on the board of one of Ukraine’s largest natural gas companies, Hunter Biden, the son of former U.S. Vice-President Joe Biden, was regarded as a helpful non-executive director with a powerful name, according to people familiar with Biden’s role at the company.
www.reuters.com www.reuters.com

thehill.com

Hunter Biden defends taking position on Burisma board

Hunter Biden on Monday defended his decision to serve on the board of Ukrainian energy company Burisma, but acknowledged he would not do it again after the position became a point of atta…
thehill.com thehill.com

Maybe you don't know the timeline.

Biden and Kerry financial advisor join Burisma Board of directors May 2014
www.bbc.com

Vice President Joe Biden's son joins Ukraine gas company

What in the World: A vice presidential son's business move raises concern, charges of Chinese "brazen aggression" toward Vietnam, and justice for Israel's Ehud Olmert.
www.bbc.com

Donbas invaded by Russia August 2014. Donbas developed, no need for Russian oil and gas. Oil is 1/3 of Russia Economy.
 
There is some interesting information in this op-ed by Jim Jones. It is a good read.

"Vladimir Putin provides an eye-opener for his GOP fans in America"​


First some info about the author:

thehill.com

Vladimir Putin provides an eye-opener for his GOP fans in America

It is essential that the U.S. do everything in its power to assist the Ukrainians in their life-or-death struggle with the Russian dictator.
thehill.com thehill.com

"Jim Jones is a Vietnam combat veteran who served eight years as Idaho attorney general (1983-1991) and 12 years as a justice on the Idaho Supreme Court (2005-2017). He is currently a regular contributor to The Hill." And in the article Jones, a longtime republican writes "My association with the GOP ended in the fall of 2002, when it became clear that Donald Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney were determined to go to war in Iraq for no good reason."

The author, who is not some progressive liberal, details some data from recent polls that is very telling:

"Ever since Donald Trump assumed the presidency with the support of Vladimir Putin, the Russian leader has enjoyed a confoundingly high favorability rating among the Republican base. According to an Economist/YouGov poll published last June, 18 percent of Republicans held a favorable view of Putin. The same pollster found in January, as Russian troops massed on Ukraine’s border, that 62 percent of Republicans regarded Putin as a stronger leader than President Biden."

So I wonder what you call it when 62 percent of 74 million people who voted republican like Putin more than their president???? Let's see 62 percent of 74 million is about 40 million people.

Jones goes on to add "Having grown up in the Republican Party, it boggles my mind that present-day Republicans could have anything but contempt for a stone-cold killer like Vladimir Putin. For decades following World War II, Republicans styled themselves as the bulwark against Soviet aggression. I was all in on that stance from an early age."

And finally from the op-ed, " A poll taken in early February [2022] found that 42 percent of Trump voters opposed helping Ukraine, while 36 percent thought it important to help Ukraine and stop Russia. ".

Polls like these might be off by 4 points so that is 10% which means extrapolating 42 percent of 74 million on the high end is
32 million and on the low end of the error range is 29 million people who would not oppose Putin's future invasion of Ukraine. That is sick.

And numbers are numbers.
 
uihawk82 said:
There is some interesting information in this op-ed by Jim Jones. It is a good read.

"Vladimir Putin provides an eye-opener for his GOP fans in America"​


First some info about the author:

thehill.com

Vladimir Putin provides an eye-opener for his GOP fans in America

It is essential that the U.S. do everything in its power to assist the Ukrainians in their life-or-death struggle with the Russian dictator.
thehill.com thehill.com

"Jim Jones is a Vietnam combat veteran who served eight years as Idaho attorney general (1983-1991) and 12 years as a justice on the Idaho Supreme Court (2005-2017). He is currently a regular contributor to The Hill." And in the article Jones, a longtime republican writes "My association with the GOP ended in the fall of 2002, when it became clear that Donald Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney were determined to go to war in Iraq for no good reason."

The author, who is not some progressive liberal, details some data from recent polls that is very telling:

"Ever since Donald Trump assumed the presidency with the support of Vladimir Putin, the Russian leader has enjoyed a confoundingly high favorability rating among the Republican base. According to an Economist/YouGov poll published last June, 18 percent of Republicans held a favorable view of Putin. The same pollster found in January, as Russian troops massed on Ukraine’s border, that 62 percent of Republicans regarded Putin as a stronger leader than President Biden."

So I wonder what you call it when 62 percent of 74 million people who voted republican like Putin more than their president???? Let's see 62 percent of 74 million is about 40 million people.

Jones goes on to add "Having grown up in the Republican Party, it boggles my mind that present-day Republicans could have anything but contempt for a stone-cold killer like Vladimir Putin. For decades following World War II, Republicans styled themselves as the bulwark against Soviet aggression. I was all in on that stance from an early age."

And finally from the op-ed, " A poll taken in early February [2022] found that 42 percent of Trump voters opposed helping Ukraine, while 36 percent thought it important to help Ukraine and stop Russia. ".

Polls like these might be off by 4 points so that is 10% which means extrapolating 42 percent of 74 million on the high end is
32 million and on the low end of the error range is 29 million people who would not oppose Putin's future invasion of Ukraine. That is sick.

And numbers are numbers.
Click to expand...
Ow. Suspicions confirmed.
 
uihawk82 said:
There is some interesting information in this op-ed by Jim Jones. It is a good read.

"Vladimir Putin provides an eye-opener for his GOP fans in America"​


First some info about the author:

thehill.com

Vladimir Putin provides an eye-opener for his GOP fans in America

It is essential that the U.S. do everything in its power to assist the Ukrainians in their life-or-death struggle with the Russian dictator.
thehill.com thehill.com

"Jim Jones is a Vietnam combat veteran who served eight years as Idaho attorney general (1983-1991) and 12 years as a justice on the Idaho Supreme Court (2005-2017). He is currently a regular contributor to The Hill." And in the article Jones, a longtime republican writes "My association with the GOP ended in the fall of 2002, when it became clear that Donald Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney were determined to go to war in Iraq for no good reason."

The author, who is not some progressive liberal, details some data from recent polls that is very telling:

"Ever since Donald Trump assumed the presidency with the support of Vladimir Putin, the Russian leader has enjoyed a confoundingly high favorability rating among the Republican base. According to an Economist/YouGov poll published last June, 18 percent of Republicans held a favorable view of Putin. The same pollster found in January, as Russian troops massed on Ukraine’s border, that 62 percent of Republicans regarded Putin as a stronger leader than President Biden."

So I wonder what you call it when 62 percent of 74 million people who voted republican like Putin more than their president???? Let's see 62 percent of 74 million is about 40 million people.

Jones goes on to add "Having grown up in the Republican Party, it boggles my mind that present-day Republicans could have anything but contempt for a stone-cold killer like Vladimir Putin. For decades following World War II, Republicans styled themselves as the bulwark against Soviet aggression. I was all in on that stance from an early age."

And finally from the op-ed, " A poll taken in early February [2022] found that 42 percent of Trump voters opposed helping Ukraine, while 36 percent thought it important to help Ukraine and stop Russia. ".

Polls like these might be off by 4 points so that is 10% which means extrapolating 42 percent of 74 million on the high end is
32 million and on the low end of the error range is 29 million people who would not oppose Putin's future invasion of Ukraine. That is sick.

And numbers are numbers.
Click to expand...
You originally said the poll numbers are for those who oppose helping Ukraine. But then at the end you use those numbers to say that's how many people would not oppose Putin's invasion. Those are not the same thing. I would assume there is a decent chunk of those people who oppose an invasion but don't think America needs to police the world.
 
I still have an uneasy feeling that Putin is trying to draw America into this.

The problem is that since Reagan help dissolve the old Soviet Union we've had people with backbones in the White House, both Democrat and Republican.

We don't have one in there now. It is no coincidence that Putin bided, or Bidened, his time until he felt unthreatened to invade.

Now he's going to perceive the slightest interference, such as enforcing the no fly zone or providing Ukrainian support, as acts of war.

F Ukraine, he wants to nuke America. And he's crazy enough to attempt it.. He may send a shot at our bow just out of frustration for Ukraine already being more difficult than he envisioned.

I've also heard a couple say he has his eye on Israel. That poor country. EVERYONE seems to have their eye on Israel. But they are are some of the most resilient people on the face of the planet.

As to whether he can nuke America, even with a warning shot across the bow. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha!
 
Northside Hawk said:
I still have an uneasy feeling that Putin is trying to draw America into this.

The problem is that since Reagan help dissolve the old Soviet Union we've had people with backbones in the White House, both Democrat and Republican.

We don't have one in there now. It is no coincidence that Putin bided, or Bidened, his time until he felt unthreatened to invade.

Now he's going to perceive the slightest interference, such as enforcing the no fly zone or providing Ukrainian support, as acts of war.

F Ukraine, he wants to nuke America. And he's crazy enough to attempt it.. He may send a shot at our bow just out of frustration for Ukraine already being more difficult than he envisioned.

I've also heard a couple say he has his eye on Israel. That poor country. EVERYONE seems to have their eye on Israel. But they are are some of the most resilient people on the face of the planet.

As to whether he can nuke America, even with a warning shot across the bow. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha!
Click to expand...

North, your's is a typical American response. Putin is a madman dictator. Put, the west is trying to destroy his economy over the dying of oil. Putin has already laid out what he will do. How much he has the capability to do is another story. Putin in becoming maybe the richest man in the world didn't develop a balanced economy. He's already fighting the US in Ukraine. I would argue that Ukrainians over the years have been the most resilient if you look at history. Putin could care less about Israel unless he perceives them to be behind the so-called CABAL. Russia is an ally of Syria. What people don't get is that Assad was running a mostly peaceful nation but the west pipeline through Syria was going to be another way to take down Russian oil.

I'm not pro-Putin or Russia, especially while my friends are in harms way. Make no mistake, the West has drawn themselves in this.

About Reagan, it's somewhat a myth. The system was collapsing anyway. What seeded unrest was Carters grain embargo of a society that loves meat and they had to cull herds. The system was old and didn't do much for infrastructure including oil. Reagan came at the right time and the west Europeans cut credit.

Reagan did about accidentally start WW3 over KAL 007 as his administration had no understanding of Russian and Soviet society and how genuinely paranoid they really were. The Soviets really did mistake the airliner or a military craft. The US for sure knew that at the time and tried to make hay out of it. Reagan has a number of myths such as walking into the hospital by himself. Jerry Parr told me personally he was way to bad off to do that.

The invasion is terrible and completely on Putin. There are things that could have been done to alleviate this and weren't done.

American attitudes is why we have minimally 150,000 up to a million dead Iraqi's over our freedom to be safe from weapons of mass destruction that didn't exist and we knew that. Almost all wars are preventable and catastrophic.
 
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PCHawk said:
You originally said the poll numbers are for those who oppose helping Ukraine. But then at the end you use those numbers to say that's how many people would not oppose Putin's invasion. Those are not the same thing. I would assume there is a decent chunk of those people who oppose an invasion but don't think America needs to police the world.
Click to expand...

That could be that you think they are not the same thing but really I am pretty firmly taking the stance that one is equal to the other. Appeasement and 'not doing shit' in 1938 and 1939 didnt stop a maniac then and it wont now. So not helping Ukraine with tons of supplies, weapons, and whatever food, water, and medicine so that Ukraine can win is the only way to stop this shit. Most people could logic out what would happen if Putin rolled over Ukraine because Ukraine had no help. Latvia, Estonia, etc etc would be next in a slow burn to undermine their governments. I dont want any war. It is so unproductive especially in 2022 when almost everything is global: oil and commodity prices, stock markets, production/shipping/trade, communications and media. I dont hate the russian citizens but they have a madman on the loose.

And why do you think some people think the US should not need to police the world?? Because we have had a bad taste the last 20 years in the Middle East ( and Korea, Vietnam, and some other situations). Our Bush 2 leaders were so fucking stupid because they crushed the Taliban in 3-6 months and had the Taliban wanting to surrender and lay down arms. But our leaders told them no because they wanted the War Machine to ramp up. A surrendered Taliban and a half way decent democratic govt in Afghan would have given the US really good options in finding and crushing Al Queda.

And the Bushies' war in Iraq was just a terribly unneeded war. Period.

So maybe some of those people might not be soft on Putin but they are nuts to not help stop Putin in this invasion.
 
uihawk82 said:
That could be that you think they are not the same thing but really I am pretty firmly taking the stance that one is equal to the other. Appeasement and 'not doing shit' in 1938 and 1939 didnt stop a maniac then and it wont now. So not helping Ukraine with tons of supplies, weapons, and whatever food, water, and medicine so that Ukraine can win is the only way to stop this shit. Most people could logic out what would happen if Putin rolled over Ukraine because Ukraine had no help. Latvia, Estonia, etc etc would be next in a slow burn to undermine their governments. I dont want any war. It is so unproductive especially in 2022 when almost everything is global: oil and commodity prices, stock markets, production/shipping/trade, communications and media. I dont hate the russian citizens but they have a madman on the loose.

And why do you think some people think the US should not need to police the world?? Because we have had a bad taste the last 20 years in the Middle East ( and Korea, Vietnam, and some other situations). Our Bush 2 leaders were so fucking stupid because they crushed the Taliban in 3-6 months and had the Taliban wanting to surrender and lay down arms. But our leaders told them no because they wanted the War Machine to ramp up. A surrendered Taliban and a half way decent democratic govt in Afghan would have given the US really good options in finding and crushing Al Queda.

And the Bushies' war in Iraq was just a terribly unneeded war. Period.

So maybe some of those people might not be soft on Putin but they are nuts to not help stop Putin in this invasion.
Click to expand...
This war in Ukraine was very preventable.
 
uihawk82 said:
How does this war get prevented? Just curious when the whole thing came down to one person.
Click to expand...

It's a big explanation and I'm about to leave for a few days.

Simplified version.

1. Geography. East Europe to Moscow is a big flat plain coming from the west where it is like a funnel with Moscow/Russia on the wide end.

2. Ukraine/Belorus/Baltics are a part of that plain. To West are mountains/entry points. Russia due to the past (see WW2 Barbarossa) doesn't want missiles and tanks on their border on a wider area. Hard to defend wide-open plains. Hard to defend with those weapons on your border. The Soviet system was a paranoid system more than anything and engrained in the culture.

3. US should have stayed out of Ukraine politics. US did in fact use Right Sector and Svoboda and the US 101 did in fact train AZOV Battalion.

4. US and the west did do anything to help Russia under Yeltsin when he asked for it. They didn't encourage Putin to diversify their economy.

5. The US (Biden as VP) did try and develop Donbas. If that is developed then Russian oil is not needed and that alone is about all that feeds Putin and Oligarch buddies.

6. US didn't do much to punish Russia for Georgia. US could have earlier helped develop Belorus (I was actually in on that and supposed to meet the Ambassador when that all ended the very day I was supposed to meet with him to develop trade and educational ties. Russia quietly took over that country.

7. US didn't do much about Crimea

8. US preferred to work with Far Right than Yanakovich who though corrupt and mostly pro Russia wasn't anti US. He was in fact lawfully elected (OK it's about like Chicago), and he was overthrowed with US help.

9. I talked with both sides during protests. ALL of them were average people from rural areas bused in and paid 60 USD per day to protest pro West or pro Russian. They didn't care.

10. Most anyone of above would have helped.

I am sick for my friends. Just sick. And embarrassed of what I nation did to support far Right and what they didn't do to discourage Putin earlier either by helping or punishing economically.

Think about it this way. OK State got hammered by NCAA and winked about Kansas. The Olympic Committee went after Russia which was a huge in your fact to Putin while looking the other way with other. (minor example).

Now it's like, oh boy Big Bad Vlad is on the loose and let's clobber him. Not talking appeasement, but real action prior. Remember when George Bush 1 winked about Saddam and then blew him away?

Every American should have been angered when photos from 2015 should the US 101st Airborne training Ukrainian soldiers of AZOZ Militia wearing this patch.
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