WHO GETS DRAFTED FIRST

[Ree4]

Fant goes first.

But if you asked me who I’d want my favorite team to draft it’d be Hock. More complete all around player because of blocking and better hands.

Fant certainly has the edge on athleticism.

I'd disagree. I think Fant has an amazing vertical and straight line speed, but lacks strength and balance. How many times have you seen Fant break a tackle? To me it seems that he always goes down with first contact, and I haven't missed a snap since he's been here. Hockensen on the other hand has run past, through and around guys many, many times. I've only seen Hock drop one ball in his career and I've seen Fant drop more than a few. I'd take Hock if it were me.

 

[ibahawkeye]

I'd disagree. I think Fant has an amazing vertical and straight line speed, but lacks strength and balance. How many times have you seen Fant break a tackle? To me it seems that he always goes down with first contact, and I haven't missed a snap since he's been here. Hockensen on the other hand has run past, through and around guys many, many times. I've only seen Hock drop one ball in his career and I've seen Fant drop more than a few. I'd take Hock if it were me.

I don't disagree about Fant not seeming to break many tackles but here's an article from Hawk Central on Noah: https://www.hawkcentral.com/story/s...ng-players-nfl-draft-brian-ferentz/735043002/

He’s set three of the four Ferentz-era team performance records for tight ends — the pro-agility drill; the 10-yard dash; and, most notably, the vertical jump.

His vertical leap of 42.1 inches during offseason testing would rank higher than any tight end at the NFL Combine in the past seven years.

 

[Ree4]

I don't disagree about Fant not seeming to break many tackles but here's an article from Hawk Central on Noah: https://www.hawkcentral.com/story/s...ng-players-nfl-draft-brian-ferentz/735043002/

He’s set three of the four Ferentz-era team performance records for tight ends — the pro-agility drill; the 10-yard dash; and, most notably, the vertical jump.

His vertical leap of 42.1 inches during offseason testing would rank higher than any tight end at the NFL Combine in the past seven years.

I didn't say many, I said ANY. I seriously can't think of one single time. For a guy his size with that athleticism he should be trucking people. With that agility he should be juking the shit out of people, but I've never seen it. I feel like he's scared to get hit or something, I dunno, I can't explain it.

I know about the records, but measurables don't always translate to the field though and I feel like his haven't. There's much more to TE than speed, agility and vertical. Could it be that we didn't utilize him correctly here? Absolutely, but I think it's more than just that. I think Hockensen will have more success at TE than Fant in the NFL.

 

[CP87]

I'd disagree. I think Fant has an amazing vertical and straight line speed, but lacks strength and balance. How many times have you seen Fant break a tackle? To me it seems that he always goes down with first contact, and I haven't missed a snap since he's been here. Hockensen on the other hand has run past, through and around guys many, many times. I've only seen Hock drop one ball in his career and I've seen Fant drop more than a few. I'd take Hock if it were me.

Fant is also an amazing route-runner. He appears to really work hard at his craft. But I have had the exact same thoughts as you: how many Fant broken tackles can you remember? how many contested catches in traffic?

Fant's highlight reel is him running by people (and unfortunately in 2018, the QB mostly missing him). It seems that Hockenson had at least one big 3rd down catch over the middle each game with someone hanging all over him. Hock had the amazing scramble and bomb catch vs. Wis when he was being interfered with. He hurdled a guy and got another 10 yards vs. PSU. He had that amazing out-of-bounds catch vs. PSU (ultimately they ruled him out, but I don't think I can remember Fant ever diving for a ball, let alone making a diving catch). He had a few instances where he stiff-armed or dragged would-be tacklers for 10-20 yards (he gave a Nebbie DB a pretty good ride on Black Friday). He had numerous highlight-reel pancakes.

Again, Fant is really good. The thing he does best, he does better than ANYONE. But since he is not great at using his physicality yet, he is just a big WR who does not necessarily put the defense in a pickle. Watch the Nebbie game again. Hawks 2nd to last drive, after the long Sargent run (on which both TEs got pancakes, by the way), the Hawks ran 2 straight pass plays where Fant was the primary read. I think he had single coverage both times (hard to tell with Fant, there seems to always be someone over the top allowing the DB to play tight). In both cases, the cover-man was very physical, and Fant did not win either play. Hawks missed a FG.

On the game-winning drive, when the Hawks needed a conversion on 4th and 8, they isolated Hock, he won his route, he caught the ball, and the Hawks won the game.

Both great players, but Hock had a much more memorable season, and he was a better TE at this level. If an NFL team figures out how to deploy Fant in a way that maximizes his considerable athleticism, he could have a huge impact, but if I were a betting man, I would bet on Hock having more Pro Bowls.

 

[Ree4]

Fant is also an amazing route-runner. He appears to really work hard at his craft. But I have had the exact same thoughts as you: how many Fant broken tackles can you remember? how many contested catches in traffic?

Fant's highlight reel is him running by people (and unfortunately in 2018, the QB mostly missing him). It seems that Hockenson had at least one big 3rd down catch over the middle each game with someone hanging all over him. Hock had the amazing scramble and bomb catch vs. Wis when he was being interfered with. He hurdled a guy and got another 10 yards vs. PSU. He had that amazing out-of-bounds catch vs. PSU (ultimately they ruled him out, but I don't think I can remember Fant ever diving for a ball, let alone making a diving catch). He had a few instances where he stiff-armed or dragged would-be tacklers for 10-20 yards (he gave a Nebbie DB a pretty good ride on Black Friday). He had numerous highlight-reel pancakes.

Again, Fant is really good. The thing he does best, he does better than ANYONE. But since he is not great at using his physicality yet, he is just a big WR who does not necessarily put the defense in a pickle. Watch the Nebbie game again. Hawks 2nd to last drive, after the long Sargent run (on which both TEs got pancakes, by the way), the Hawks ran 2 straight pass plays where Fant was the primary read. I think he had single coverage both times (hard to tell with Fant, there seems to always be someone over the top allowing the DB to play tight). In both cases, the cover-man was very physical, and Fant did not win either play. Hawks missed a FG.

On the game-winning drive, when the Hawks needed a conversion on 4th and 8, they isolated Hock, he won his route, he caught the ball, and the Hawks won the game.

Both great players, but Hock had a much more memorable season, and he was a better TE at this level. If an NFL team figures out how to deploy Fant in a way that maximizes his considerable athleticism, he could have a huge impact, but if I were a betting man, I would bet on Hock having more Pro Bowls.

This is exactly what I was thinking. While I'm glad Fant is and will always be a Hawk, I feel like something was lacking when he's compared to other great players we've had. Most of his catches have been pretty easy and his long plays were not really contested YAC. I feel like it would be much harder to duplicate his performance in the NFL by simply running by guys.

Thanks for making the point better than I could!

 

[karras]

The voting is the opposite of the comments. LOL

You can teach someone how to say "yes sir" and "no sir". You can teach someone how to block and run routes. What you can't teach is how to jump 42 inches in the air or run past everyone on the defense.

Q: "Mr. NFL General manager, which do you prefer, someone who can break tackles or someone with the athleticism/speed to avoid tackles?"

A: "Hmmmmmm, let me think about that. I think my answer is, you're an idiot."

Having said all that we know who the staff will talk up to NFL scouts. And that will probably determine which of them gets chosen first. The more important question, is which will have the better NFL career? If they both have long careers the PROGRAM will benefit greatly. I assume that's what matters the most to most.

 

[Ree4]

The voting is the opposite of the comments. LOL

You can teach someone how to say "yes sir" and "no sir". You can teach someone how to block and run routes. What you can't teach is how to jump 42 inches in the air or run past everyone on the defense.

Q: "Mr. NFL General manager, which do you prefer, someone who can break tackles or someone with the athleticism/speed to avoid tackles?"

A: "Hmmmmmm, let me think about that. I think my answer is, you're an idiot."

Having said all that we know who the staff will talk up to NFL scouts. And that will probably determine which of them gets chosen first. The more important question, is which will have the better NFL career? If they both have long careers the PROGRAM will benefit greatly. I assume that's what matters the most to most.

Straw man.

Watch his 2018 highlight video. He goes down on first contact every time. It's almost as if he starts to fall before he even gets hit. What tackles did he avoid this year? When did he "run past the defense" with the ball in his hands? He put his shoulder into the defender the only time I can remember at 1:46. He tried to juke at 6:05 in the video but couldn't, his best effort was at 6:35 where he used his speed to get by the safety who eventually caught him.

For somebody with his size, speed and agility his ability with the ball in his hands is disappointing and it will not improve in the NFL when he goes up against quicker, faster players.

That being said, I loved that Noah was a Hawkeye and he was one of the most productive tight ends we've ever had. He will definitely be missed, but not as much as Hockensen IMO


I guess my main question is that if he has the athleticism/speed to avoid tackles why doesn't he?

 

[skinnykilmer17]

Straw man.

Watch his 2018 highlight video. He goes down on first contact every time. It's almost as if he starts to fall before he even gets hit. What tackles did he avoid this year? When did he "run past the defense" with the ball in his hands? He put his shoulder into the defender the only time I can remember at 1:46. He tried to juke at 6:05 in the video but couldn't, his best effort was at 6:35 where he used his speed to get by the safety who eventually caught him.

For somebody with his size, speed and agility his ability with the ball in his hands is disappointing and it will not improve in the NFL when he goes up against quicker, faster players.

That being said, I loved that Noah was a Hawkeye and he was one of the most productive tight ends we've ever had. He will definitely be missed, but not as much as Hockensen IMO


I guess my main question is that if he has the athleticism/speed to avoid tackles why doesn't he?

To borrow a term from Rob, what an asinine post. Seriously asinine. All this video proves is how Fant uses his speed to get open. Is your reference to the play where the safety caught him the one where Stanley underthrew him negating his speed? Even so is a TE getting caught by a safety a shocker?

I have said that Fant is a little thin for your prototypical TE and hopefully he can hold up to the pounding of the NFL.

But "starts to fall before he even gets hit" . ???
Good god.

 

[Ree4]

To borrow a term from Rob, what an asinine post. Seriously asinine. All this video proves is how Fant uses his speed to get open. Is your reference to the play where the safety caught him the one where Stanley underthrew him negating his speed? Even so is a TE getting caught by a safety a shocker?

I have said that Fant is a little thin for your prototypical TE and hopefully he can hold up to the pounding of the NFL.

But "starts to fall before he even gets hit" . ???
Good god.

But no ability to avoid tacklers like karras mentioned.
So you couldn't find one an example. Thanks.

Hock's highlights show the same speed and ability to get open, but his also show the ability to get yards after contact, you disagree with that? I feel that's what separates the two. Nice job reaching and overreacting though, wtg

 

[Ree4]

To borrow a term from Rob, what an asinine post. Seriously asinine. All this video proves is how Fant uses his speed to get open. Is your reference to the play where the safety caught him the one where Stanley underthrew him negating his speed? Even so is a TE getting caught by a safety a shocker?

I have said that Fant is a little thin for your prototypical TE and hopefully he can hold up to the pounding of the NFL.

But "starts to fall before he even gets hit" . ???
Good god.

Underthrew the bubble screen? No. Do you know how time works on youtube videos? 6:35.. The safety took a terrible angle, probably because he underestimated Fant's speed

 

[Ree4]

But "starts to fall before he even gets hit" . ???
Good god.

If you can't see it, I'm not wasting time trying to show you other than the very first play. Pause it at 7 seconds before he gets hit. He runs right into the tackler, makes no effort to use his agility to beat the defender. How hard is that to understand?

 

[hawkeye23]

As a Bear fan, I honestly don't know which one I prefer. I would guess Hock given his great hands and blocking skills over Fant. Win-win either way!

I would take either one but being a fan as well, I'm sure the Bears brass don't see TE as a major need at least that early. Heck, both will very likely be gone by the time they pick in the 2nd rd. I would be happy if they took Hooker though! #kickerinthesecondround

 

[homes]

Seems that if they don't get drafted, or don't get drafted where they want and have accepted no money they should be able to return to the college game.

Once an agent has been hired, I think the guy is a professional, at least to the NCAA, and an agent is probably needed to best position the guy for the draft. So, there's no sense in declaring early unless you intend on hiring an agent.

I think a longer period of time, like the NBA, to get an evaluation without affecting their amateur status would be good for the underclassmen thinking about coming out. Maybe with more guys going early every year, this will happen. Right now, unless you're a no brainer in everyone's eyes, there is a certain amount of risk to the underclassmen coming out.

 

[99topdawg]

You can teach someone how to say "yes sir" and "no sir". You can teach someone how to block and run routes. What you can't teach is how to jump 42 inches in the air or run past everyone on the defense.

Piggy-backing off of this, there are more guys like Hock than Fant in the draft. Fant's athleticism makes him an outlier, which will make teams want to pick him early so they don't miss out. They will group other guys in with Hock and want "one of those", which may make Hock drop a bit (not to the 4th round, but maybe a little)...or like usual, I'm probably wrong.

 

[iloveyoularrystation]

It's gonna be awesome when 3 of the 5 top tight ends in the nfl are all hawks in a year or two.

 

[CP87]

 

[CP87]

Watching that Fant highlight video above reminded me that he was utilized pretty effectively all the way through Indiana. What the Hell happened after that?

Could someone with some time to kill break down his 17-18 stats through Indiana, and then after Indiana?

As an aside, I thought one of his best stretches of play this season was the should-have-been-game-winning drive vs. Penn State. For some reason, he had not been targeted most of the game. Then on that drive that ended up with a Stanley goal-line pick, Fant kind of put the team on his back. 3 straight targets for 3 straight completions (12, 4, and 7 yards). And then everything else started loosening up. Not sure why that could not have been replicated more often over the latter half of the season.

 

[99topdawg]

Mel Kiper just released his first mock of the year and has Hock going 19th to the Titans and does not have Fant going in the 1st round.


19. Tennessee Titans
T.J. Hockenson, TE, Iowa

This might not look like a need on paper, but Delanie Walker is 34 and missed most of the season after a severe ankle injury. Hockenson can be a weapon. He is an all-around tight end, an excellent blocker and a good pass-catcher with a big 6-foot-5, 250-pound frame. The Titans will keep a close eye on playmakers for Marcus Mariota.

 

[CP87]

Watching that Fant highlight video above reminded me that he was utilized pretty effectively all the way through Indiana. What the Hell happened after that?

Could someone with some time to kill break down his 17-18 stats through Indiana, and then after Indiana?

As an aside, I thought one of his best stretches of play this season was the should-have-been-game-winning drive vs. Penn State. For some reason, he had not been targeted most of the game. Then on that drive that ended up with a Stanley goal-line pick, Fant kind of put the team on his back. 3 straight targets for 3 straight completions (12, 4, and 7 yards). And then everything else started loosening up. Not sure why that could not have been replicated more often over the latter half of the season.

I was wrong, the last part of the season was not really different from the rest of 2017-2018.

2017 and 2018 through Indiana: 20 games, 2.55 rec/g, 38.1 yds/g, 0.8 TD/g (6 games out of 20 with 50+ yds receiving, 8 games out of 20 under 30 yds)

Latter part of 2018 (Maryland --> Neb): 6 games, 2.67 rec/g, 36.8 yds/g, 0.17 TD/g (3 games out of 6 with 50+ yds receiving, 3 games out of 6 with under 30 yds)

So TDs went way down, but everything else was similar. I think what stands out is the NW game (1 rec for 0 yards); take that out, and his productivity matched (actually exceeded) the rest of his career.

If you are wondering how Hockenson compares:
2017: 13 games, 1.85 rec/g, 24.6 yds/g, 0.23 TD/g (1 out of 13 games with 50+, another 3 games with 40+, 4 games under 30 yds)

2018: 13 games, 3.77 rec/g, 58.5 yds/g, 0.46 TD/g (6 out of 13 games with 50+, another 3 games with 40+; 1 game under 30 yds)

Combined: 26 games, 2.81 rec/g, 41.5 yds/g, 0.35 TD/g

Fant was certainly boom or bust. Over 2 years, he had 9 games over 50 yards, but 11 under 30 yards. Hockenson had 7 games over 50, but only 5 under 30 (and only 1 this year to Fant's 7). Even in 2017 when Fant was a much bigger part of the offense than Hockenson, TJ still had fewer games with <30 yards.

Kind of interesting (to me, at least).

 

[karras]

I was wrong, the last part of the season was not really different from the rest of 2017-2018.

2017 and 2018 through Indiana: 20 games, 2.55 rec/g, 38.1 yds/g, 0.8 TD/g (6 games out of 20 with 50+ yds receiving, 8 games out of 20 under 30 yds)

Latter part of 2018 (Maryland --> Neb): 6 games, 2.67 rec/g, 36.8 yds/g, 0.17 TD/g (3 games out of 6 with 50+ yds receiving, 3 games out of 6 with under 30 yds)

So TDs went way down, but everything else was similar. I think what stands out is the NW game (1 rec for 0 yards); take that out, and his productivity matched (actually exceeded) the rest of his career.

If you are wondering how Hockenson compares:
2017: 13 games, 1.85 rec/g, 24.6 yds/g, 0.23 TD/g (1 out of 13 games with 50+, another 3 games with 40+, 4 games under 30 yds)

2018: 13 games, 3.77 rec/g, 58.5 yds/g, 0.46 TD/g (6 out of 13 games with 50+, another 3 games with 40+; 1 game under 30 yds)

Combined: 26 games, 2.81 rec/g, 41.5 yds/g, 0.35 TD/g

Fant was certainly boom or bust. Over 2 years, he had 9 games over 50 yards, but 11 under 30 yards. Hockenson had 7 games over 50, but only 5 under 30 (and only 1 this year to Fant's 7). Even in 2017 when Fant was a much bigger part of the offense than Hockenson, TJ still had fewer games with <30 yards.

Kind of interesting (to me, at least).

This misses the point.

Hock should've been on the field for every offensive snap
Fant should've been on the field for every snap as well - splitting time between WR/TE/FB - before you freak out, Brian himself said Fant could play those 3 positions and produce.
And for those who say "How could they both get 100% of the snaps when Fant is getting snaps at TE?" -- well, 2-TE (sometimes 3-TE) sets answer that question.