What if Harbaugh Goes to Mich?

[yaman3]

To Yaman,

OK....fair question about what constitutes a gimmick offense.

I'm 52 and have been watching college FB since the mid 60s.

What scUM runs is a sleight-of-hand variation of the flex/wishbone/run-n-shoot. Hide and sneak...razzle dazzle...QB getting 95% of the eventual touches. It comes and goes in and out of style. When it comes into a league, its a hit for awhile until people figure it out, then it goes away. I've seen this evolution over and over and over. The 190LB-QB's will eventually get pummeled and hurt. It's already happened. This type of offense simply cannot sustain itself.

GT found success with it last year, until, a team like Iowa could study it for awhile, prepare for it and execute. You saw what happened.

Iowa's offense, in comparison, is a pro-set, which doesn't and won't be changed for years and years. They do what they do well and basically challenge people to stop it. Same with Wisconsin. Same with OSU.

I'm not convinced scUM's defense will ever be factor under RRod. RRod's on his 3rd year with no improvement whasoever.

People don't fear scUM anymore. Whatever offense they're running simply won't last IMO...like any other gimmick. That's my bottom line.

Just like the shotgun formation was a gimmick right? The entire spread concept was a gimmick right? Florida's offense was a gimmick. Alabama is the only team in recent memory to win a NC with you "prostyle" offense.

Your point about GT would be a great one if they had any throwing capabilities. Michigan has the #4 and #5 leading recievers in the Big Ten. It has been proven time and time again that balanced offenses are successful. The playcalling at Michigan is right around 60% run and 40% pass. That's no different than it was under LC and your proven dominant "prostyle" offense, which by the way is an out of date term. There is a ton of shotgun spread concepts in the NFL right now. Another thing: You say that once there is time for a defense to study it, they will stop it. Great theory, but how many years has RR run offenses. The WVU offense was very similar to this one. You have all that to study. You had every game this year to steady it. This offense can move so many different directions. It can be pass happy or run happy. Name the top offenses in the country please. Nevermind, I'll do it:Oregon and Auburn. Michigan is right there. OSU is right there. The top two in the Big Ten are both spread offenses. In the end offense comes down to the same things no matter the system:Blocking, Running, Throwing and Catching. There isn't an offense that doesn't use those concepts. Michigan run the ball well not only because of Denard but because they have one of the best Olines in the conference, if not country. That line won't be worse next year. There isn't razzle dazzle in this offense. There is the read option, midline option, and PA. That not razzle dazzle. That is progressive football. Those aren't plays no one else runs, they are plays Michigan runs better than all but 2 teams in football and they just so happen to have a QB that can do that and throw the ball somewhat effectively as a Sophomore. The scary thing is that Michigan hasn't had their top 2 RBs for half or all of the season. What happens if RR finds a Steve Slayton for his Pat White?

 

[HawkeyeMike23]

Just like the shotgun formation was a gimmick right? The entire spread concept was a gimmick right? Florida's offense was a gimmick. Alabama is the only team in recent memory to win a NC with you "prostyle" offense.

Your point about GT would be a great one if they had any throwing capabilities. Michigan has the #4 and #5 leading recievers in the Big Ten. It has been proven time and time again that balanced offenses are successful. The playcalling at Michigan is right around 60% run and 40% pass. That's no different than it was under LC and your proven dominant "prostyle" offense, which by the way is an out of date term. There is a ton of shotgun spread concepts in the NFL right now. Another thing: You say that once there is time for a defense to study it, they will stop it. Great theory, but how many years has RR run offenses. The WVU offense was very similar to this one. You have all that to study. You had every game this year to steady it. This offense can move so many different directions. It can be pass happy or run happy. Name the top offenses in the country please. Nevermind, I'll do it:Oregon and Auburn. Michigan is right there. OSU is right there. The top two in the Big Ten are both spread offenses. In the end offense comes down to the same things no matter the system:Blocking, Running, Throwing and Catching. There isn't an offense that doesn't use those concepts. Michigan run the ball well not only because of Denard but because they have one of the best Olines in the conference, if not country. That line won't be worse next year. There isn't razzle dazzle in this offense. There is the read option, midline option, and PA. That not razzle dazzle. That is progressive football. Those aren't plays no one else runs, they are plays Michigan runs better than all but 2 teams in football and they just so happen to have a QB that can do that and throw the ball somewhat effectively as a Sophomore. The scary thing is that Michigan hasn't had their top 2 RBs for half or all of the season. What happens if RR finds a Steve Slayton for his Pat White?

USC won a title with a pro style offense. Ohio St. in 2002 and Miami in 2001 won with pro style offenses. LSU also won a title with a pro style offense.

 

[yaman3]

USC won a title with a pro style offense. Ohio St. in 2002 and Miami in 2001 won with pro style offenses. LSU also won a title with a pro style offense.

What does pro style mean? Does it mean under center or what? Under center offenses can be a spread concept and a shotgun formation can be a pro style attack. This is my whole point. In college football the best offenses based on spread principles. 14 of the top 16 offenses are based on spread concept is you don't consider TCU a spread offense. Thee other one:Airforce. Far from "prostyle."

 

[yaman3]

USC won a title with a pro style offense. Ohio St. in 2002 and Miami in 2001 won with pro style offenses. LSU also won a title with a pro style offense.

Oh, and you're right. I was talking about more recent history though because spread concepts didn't become widely used until pretty damn recently.

 

[imported_ankle23]

What does pro style mean? Does it mean under center or what? Under center offenses can be a spread concept and a shotgun formation can be a pro style attack. This is my whole point. In college football the best offenses based on spread principles. 14 of the top 16 offenses are based on spread concept is you don't consider TCU a spread offense. Thee other one:Airforce. Far from "prostyle."

definero style offense - Google Search

 

[HawkeyeMike23]

What does pro style mean? Does it mean under center or what? Under center offenses can be a spread concept and a shotgun formation can be a pro style attack. This is my whole point. In college football the best offenses based on spread principles. 14 of the top 16 offenses are based on spread concept is you don't consider TCU a spread offense. Thee other one:Airforce. Far from "prostyle."

The best offenses may be based on spread principles but so are the worst offenses. It doesn't make it better than the pro style attack, it's just more prevalent now. Look at all the teams ranked 100 or worse in offense, almost all of them have spread attacks.

 

[clicheusername3]

Pro style to me means your RB is your dominate offensive player (or running the ball is the focal point) and you use more complex zone blocking schemes to run the ball. The QB is generally found directly under center. The pro-style will incorporate a TE and a FB. In a pro-style you have a receiver that is the "deep threat" and runs deeper routes and a "possesion receiver" that runs underneath and shorter out routes. In a pro-style you don't improvise, especially the QB.

 

[yaman3]

Pro style to me means your RB is your dominate offensive player (or running the ball is the focal point) and you use more complex zone blocking schemes to run the ball. The QB is generally found directly under center. The pro-style will incorporate a TE and a FB. In a pro-style you have a receiver that is the "deep threat" and runs deeper routes and a "possesion receiver" that runs underneath and shorter out routes. In a pro-style you don't improvise, especially the QB.

So alot of Michigan offense is prostyle. They have zone blocking plays, they incorporate TEs, They have a deep threat(Hemingway), they have possession recievers in Stonum and Roundtree and Denard has scrambled 4 times this year.

My point is that it doesn't matter what offense you run. Whatever one you run, if it is done well, you succeed, if it is done poorly it doesn't succeed.

 

[yaman3]

The best offenses may be based on spread principles but so are the worst offenses. It doesn't make it better than the pro style attack, it's just more prevalent now. Look at all the teams ranked 100 or worse in offense, almost all of them have spread attacks.

I found 6 that are not spread attacks. Also, a lot of them are historically terrible teams who probably won't succeed in whichever they choose. I know that argument could go toward the top 20 too, but those teams with more talent have chosen to run the spread. They haven't done it because it doesn't work better. They have done it to exploit talent mismatches. There will always be mismatches when Michigan lines up against everyone in the Big 10 minus OSU. The more spread out it is, the more exploitable that mismatch is because there is no help.

 

[briankaldenberg]

Just like the shotgun formation was a gimmick right? The entire spread concept was a gimmick right? Florida's offense was a gimmick. Alabama is the only team in recent memory to win a NC with you "prostyle" offense.

Your point about GT would be a great one if they had any throwing capabilities. Michigan has the #4 and #5 leading recievers in the Big Ten. It has been proven time and time again that balanced offenses are successful. The playcalling at Michigan is right around 60% run and 40% pass. That's no different than it was under LC and your proven dominant "prostyle" offense, which by the way is an out of date term. There is a ton of shotgun spread concepts in the NFL right now. Another thing: You say that once there is time for a defense to study it, they will stop it. Great theory, but how many years has RR run offenses. The WVU offense was very similar to this one. You have all that to study. You had every game this year to steady it. This offense can move so many different directions. It can be pass happy or run happy. Name the top offenses in the country please. Nevermind, I'll do it:Oregon and Auburn. Michigan is right there. OSU is right there. The top two in the Big Ten are both spread offenses. In the end offense comes down to the same things no matter the system:Blocking, Running, Throwing and Catching. There isn't an offense that doesn't use those concepts. Michigan run the ball well not only because of Denard but because they have one of the best Olines in the conference, if not country. That line won't be worse next year. There isn't razzle dazzle in this offense. There is the read option, midline option, and PA. That not razzle dazzle. That is progressive football. Those aren't plays no one else runs, they are plays Michigan runs better than all but 2 teams in football and they just so happen to have a QB that can do that and throw the ball somewhat effectively as a Sophomore. The scary thing is that Michigan hasn't had their top 2 RBs for half or all of the season. What happens if RR finds a Steve Slayton for his Pat White?

This... GT's offense is almost a non-threat in the passing game. Michigan's offense is so much more potent in the passing game... in space... in creating disadvantaged situations. GT's offense is way too run heavy.

 

[SDK46]

Moot point anyway. RRod's going to get the boot, and Harbaugh will junk the crap he runs....whatever you want to call it. RRod's philosphy isn't getting it done. And it's not because he doesn't have players.

 

[yaman3]

Moot point anyway. RRod's going to get the boot, and Harbaugh will junk the crap he runs....whatever you want to call it. RRod's philosphy isn't getting it done. And it's not because he doesn't have players.

How much do you want to bet that RR is there next year?

Also, you are half wrong. His offensive philosophy is getting it done and he has had a very small amount of disciplinary issues.

Oh, and it is because he doesn't have experienced players but if you want to continue to ignore than and exclude all facts, that's fine. I gave proof earlier in the thread and I'm not doing it again. There is now way a coach can build depth in two classes, at least not quality depth.

 

[yaman3]

Moot point anyway. RRod's going to get the boot, and Harbaugh will junk the crap he runs....whatever you want to call it. RRod's philosphy isn't getting it done. And it's not because he doesn't have players.

Oh, and I call it the system that is the second best in the Big 10. It goes by the alias "The system that put up over 500 yard on the Iowa defense."

 

[SDK46]

Oh, and I call it the system that is the second best in the Big 10. It goes by the alias "The system that put up over 500 yard on the Iowa defense."

....and lost...at home...and has an aggregate 14-19 record, 6-16 league record and a 13-10 loss to Toledo, at home, since RRod came aboard

And this is after a 20-6 two-year Michigan run the two previous years and a thrashing of FL in the 1/1/08 Cap-1 Bowl, and and a perfect 8 bowls in 8 years from 2000 - 2007.

So...this newfangled, can't be beat offense....how's that been working for ya again?

 

[SpecialKHawk]

Oh, and I call it the system that is the second best in the Big 10. It goes by the alias "The system that put up over 500 yard on the Iowa defense."

I'm not trying to squabble with this comment.

That's the real rub for me; 'stat-based, yardage' football vs. outcomes football.

Let me propose this scenario....

Team A = 6 75 yard scoring drives producing 450 yds of offense.
Team B = 3 80 yard scoring drives producing 240 yds of offense.

No turnovers by either team.

Which team would most fans predict as the obvious winner of the game? I would bet most looking at the yardarge stats only would deduce a Team A victory.

Now....
Team A stalls 6 times in the Red Zone and kicks 6 FG's for 18 pts.
Team B punches the ball into the end zone on each scoring drive(+ kick conversion) for 21 pts.

Team A beats Team B despite the almost 2 x 1 yardage discrepancy.

Yes this is all BS hypothetical stuff but I am amazed at how much the entire football community is obsessed with stats/yardage over winning football. Glamour over substance.

What is RR's record in conference this year? 2 - 3 with games against OSU and Wisky coming. Great your # 2 in stats but 2 - 3 in conference record dropping the three most meaningful games(MSU, IA, PSU). In one game you got your doors blown off and in another it took a nice comeback in the late 3rd and 4th to make it respectable.

 

[yaman3]

I'm not trying to squabble with this comment.

That's the real rub for me; 'stat-based, yardage' football vs. outcomes football.

Let me propose this scenario....

Team A = 6 75 yard scoring drives producing 450 yds of offense.
Team B = 3 80 yard scoring drives producing 240 yds of offense.

No turnovers by either team.

Which team would most fans predict as the obvious winner of the game? I would bet most looking at the yardarge stats only would deduce a Team A victory.

Now....
Team A stalls 6 times in the Red Zone and kicks 6 FG's for 18 pts.
Team B punches the ball into the end zone on each scoring drive(+ kick conversion) for 21 pts.

Team A beats Team B despite the almost 2 x 1 yardage discrepancy.

Yes this is all BS hypothetical stuff but I am amazed at how much the entire football community is obsessed with stats/yardage over winning football. Glamour over substance.

What is RR's record in conference this year? 2 - 3 with games against OSU and Wisky coming. Great your # 2 in stats but 2 - 3 in conference record dropping the three most meaningful games(MSU, IA, PSU). In one game you got your doors blown off and in another it took a nice comeback in the late 3rd and 4th to make it respectable.

I'm not saying the stats are the end all be all. I am just using it as an indicator that the offense is working. The defense helps them exactly 0. They never get great field position. They went from the ND game to the Illinois game without gaining possession in opponents territory. One turnover can mean so much for a game and Michigans offense get's zero. I don't know if RR will ever get the defense to a level above average but he doesn't need to. He has sophomores and a freshman at QB and youth all around on offense. It will be a machine but they need a little help. The defense is young and I have come to terms with the fact that Greg Robinson has no idea what's going on. I still say LC would have struggled to get to a bowl the first year with everything that was lost on that team. There was some early attrition due to changes and that hurt a little. Every single big time secondary recruit RR has brought in is gone. One was always in trouble, still is, one came to camp both years completely out of shape and one did not qualify. I will lay one of those on him. Then all the injuries this year and Warren leaving. Once again, stats are one thing but you have to be able to apply them. Michigan gets a ton of yards because of field position but they constantly have to have 75 yard drives.

 

[yaman3]

....and lost...at home...and has an aggregate 14-19 record, 6-16 league record and a 13-10 loss to Toledo, at home, since RRod came aboard

And this is after a 20-6 two-year Michigan run the two previous years and a thrashing of FL in the 1/1/08 Cap-1 Bowl, and and a perfect 8 bowls in 8 years from 2000 - 2007.

So...this newfangled, can't be beat offense....how's that been working for ya again?

Way to throw in the 06 season so you didn't have to let the 07 show what a disaster it truly was.

The offense is working just fine. Let's get less than 10 freshman playing on defense every game and see what happens. Once again, look at the two deep. Outside of Martin, Banks, Ezeh and Mouton there is nothing for experience. In fact, Banks has little to no experience. DOn't say Rogers either, this is about his 4th position. Now, before you lay that all on RR, I will just say he is responsible for 2 classes. It's not a good argument since all his guys are the ones playing and there is basically nothing outside of Martin, Woolfolk and Mouton.

 

[PlanoHawk]

Way to throw in the 06 season so you didn't have to let the 07 show what a disaster it truly was.

The offense is working just fine. Let's get less than 10 freshman playing on defense every game and see what happens. Once again, look at the two deep. Outside of Martin, Banks, Ezeh and Mouton there is nothing for experience. In fact, Banks has little to no experience. DOn't say Rogers either, this is about his 4th position. Now, before you lay that all on RR, I will just say he is responsible for 2 classes. It's not a good argument since all his guys are the ones playing and there is basically nothing outside of Martin, Woolfolk and Mouton.

Give up... you really should. Although, it is amusing to read while you try.

 

[yaman3]

Give up... you really should. Although, it is amusing to read while you try.

Did I post something inaccurate?

 

[PlanoHawk]

I refuse to play your game... go ahead, continue... it's fun.