Trump supporters, how do you square this?

C

CP87

Well-Known Member
I was formerly a right-leaning centrist, but Trump and what he has done to the Republican party has pushed me leftward. I find his character and infidelity to the truth completely disqualifying. That said, I have lots of family who support him, and I know lots of folks around here do, too. I don't understand that, but I do not condemn those with different views than me.

I can understand ignoring some of his boorish or offensive behavior if you truly feel that these things are peripheral, and what really matters are his policies. I don't agree with all of his policies, but reasonable people can disagree on many of his stances.

But if you support him, how do you square that with so many of his former administration officials coming to the forefront to say he is unfit for this role?

His longest serving chief of staff (4* general John Kelly)

The former chair of the Joint Chiefs of Staff (4* general Mark Milley)

Both of his secretaries of defense (4* general Jim Mattis; Dr. Mark Esper, former commander of Army 101st Airborne division, Chief of Staff at The Heritage Foundation, longtime GOP policy advisor)

His National Security Advisor (John Bolton)

His Vice President (Mike Pence)

Many lower-level aides (Sarah Matthews, Alyssa Farah Griffin, Cassidy Hutchinson)

And tons of others that would not go on record, but described the chaos of the White House on background.


Do none of these opinions of people who worked most closely with Trump give you pause? If that is the case, why do you find their opinions irrelevant?

Would love to hear your honest opinions, and I will not think any less of any of you for sharing (and hopefully you will not think less of me as a future Kamala voter).
 
CP87 said:
I was formerly a right-leaning centrist, but Trump and what he has done to the Republican party has pushed me leftward. I find his character and infidelity to the truth completely disqualifying. That said, I have lots of family who support him, and I know lots of folks around here do, too. I don't understand that, but I do not condemn those with different views than me.

I can understand ignoring some of his boorish or offensive behavior if you truly feel that these things are peripheral, and what really matters are his policies. I don't agree with all of his policies, but reasonable people can disagree on many of his stances.

But if you support him, how do you square that with so many of his former administration officials coming to the forefront to say he is unfit for this role?

His longest serving chief of staff (4* general John Kelly)

The former chair of the Joint Chiefs of Staff (4* general Mark Milley)

Both of his secretaries of defense (4* general Jim Mattis; Dr. Mark Esper, former commander of Army 101st Airborne division, Chief of Staff at The Heritage Foundation, longtime GOP policy advisor)

His National Security Advisor (John Bolton)

His Vice President (Mike Pence)

Many lower-level aides (Sarah Matthews, Alyssa Farah Griffin, Cassidy Hutchinson)

And tons of others that would not go on record, but described the chaos of the White House on background.


Do none of these opinions of people who worked most closely with Trump give you pause? If that is the case, why do you find their opinions irrelevant?

Would love to hear your honest opinions, and I will not think any less of any of you for sharing (and hopefully you will not think less of me as a future Kamala voter).
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Both the Democratic Party and GOP are equally scummy.

Until you set a limit of $50,000 per year salary, term limits of 2 year, and a clause saying members of congress, the senate, and executive office are barred for life from owning any investment securities other than index funds, they will always be scumbags. End of story. Trump=Harris and Harris=Trump. Neither they nor their party puppeteers give even a tiny little shit about you or the country. They want fame, money, and power.

Corporations and lobbies offer fame, money, and power in exchange for their policies.

Sorry to burst your bubble about making a positive difference. It's just a big sham.

Pick the lesser of the two evils, you say? Nope. Abstaining is a vote. It's a vote I can cast and still sleep at night.
 
Fryowa said:
Both the Democratic Party and GOP are equally scummy.

Until you set a limit of $50,000 per year salary, term limits of 2 year, and a clause saying members of congress, the senate, and executive office are barred for life from owning any investment securities other than index funds, they will always be scumbags. End of story. Trump=Harris and Harris=Trump. Neither they nor their party puppeteers give even a tiny little shit about you or the country. They want fame, money, and power.

Corporations and lobbies offer fame, money, and power in exchange for their policies.

Sorry to burst your bubble about making a positive difference. It's just a big sham.

Pick the lesser of the two evils, you say? Nope. Abstaining is a vote. It's a vote I can cast and still sleep at night.
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But one of these candidates has former associates saying he is a dangerous choice for the country...and the other is just a standard politician. If you hate all politicians, I don't blame you, our government ain't exactly lighting it up on the scoreboard. But Trump's former high-ranking officials saying he is a danger to the country is unprecendented, this is not politics as usual. That doesn't move the needle at all for you?
 
No idea what Fry said since i have him blocked but while I believe everyone should participate in the election process, until we accept we've allowed our democracy to be turned into an oligarchy and take the steps to fix that, arguing about which shitty candidate is less shitty is kind of a waste of time.

Getting money out of politics and a constitutional amendment to remove the electoral college, then the ultra wealthy and the racist xenophobic homophobes pretending to be christians who think everyone not them is a commie won't be a factor and we can actually be a democracy.
 
CP87 said:
But one of these candidates has former associates saying he is a dangerous choice for the country...and the other is just a standard politician. If you hate all politicians, I don't blame you, our government ain't exactly lighting it up on the scoreboard. But Trump's former high-ranking officials saying he is a danger to the country is unprecendented, this is not politics as usual. That doesn't move the needle at all for you?
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A politician is a politician is a politician. They’re all scum bags. What you see from them on TV is what their machine behind the scenes wants you to see and it’s a matter of one party not caring about the optics as much. We don’t agree, and that’s ok.

Voting for a person because they’re less scummy than the other is the biggest thing that’s wrong with the country. Abstaining is a vote. Abstaining is participating. Not aimed at you, but criticizing me for not voting for someone I don’t believe would be a good leader is stupid and near-sighted. That’s not how our precious system is supposed to work but it’s been that way for so long that all the sheep think it is. You’re supposed to cast your vote for the candidate you feel aligns with your morals and convictions, and would be a good leader of the United States. None of these people (or parties) represent that for me. People think I need to choose one of two scum bag parties in order to “participate” and that’s false.

I don’t expect you to agree and I’m not trying to persuade you to change your mind. I still like you and agree with a lot of what you say.

See…we don’t have to be adversarial to each other because we disagree. But the hyper-polarization popular in our society says we should be. It’s sad honestly.
 
Fryowa said:
A politician is a politician is a politician. They’re all scum bags. What you see from them on TV is what their machine behind the scenes wants you to see and it’s a matter of one party not caring about the optics as much. We don’t agree, and that’s ok.

Voting for a person because they’re less scummy than the other is the biggest thing that’s wrong with the country. Abstaining is a vote. Abstaining is participating. Not aimed at you, but criticizing me for not voting for someone I don’t believe would be a good leader is stupid and near-sighted. That’s not how our precious system is supposed to work but it’s been that way for so long that all the sheep think it is. You’re supposed to cast your vote for the candidate you feel aligns with your morals and convictions, and would be a good leader of the United States. None of these people (or parties) represent that for me. People think I need to choose one of two scum bag parties in order to “participate” and that’s false.

I don’t expect you to agree and I’m not trying to persuade you to change your mind. I still like you and agree with a lot of what you say.

See…we don’t have to be adversarial to each other because we disagree. But the hyper-polarization popular in our society says we should be. It’s sad honestly.
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What you are saying is probably what worries me the most...the idea that everything is F'd up and nothing matters. I think that is hard for us to recover from. I think the @Bordone is hinting at the answer...the electoral system needs to be fixed to try to restore some faith in the system.
 
CP87 said:
What you are saying is probably what worries me the most...the idea that everything is F'd up and nothing matters. I think that is hard for us to recover from. I think the @Bordone is hinting at the answer...the electoral system needs to be fixed to try to restore some faith in the system.
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2 year term limits for congress/senate, $50,000 max salary, and a ten year ban from owing any investments other than index funds or holding positions on boards of companies over $250M in revenue.

The only people who’d run for election are people who have a genuine desire to do what politicians are supposed to do. At that point it doesn’t really matter if we use an electoral college or not.

As long as being a politician is a a likely lifelong job with a high salary and bribes are legal in the form of lobbies providing money and lucrative jobs/positions, what you said will always be true. Everything is F’d up and nothing matters. It’s all an illusion that powerful people give you to placate you into thinking your vote matters and that you’re participating in democracy. This ain’t democracy my friend.
 
Obviously, the OP is a very smart and a well educated person, so I can't add anything to this thread, so I am going to throw out a bunch of the following random thoughts:

Trump is 78 years old and there is clear slippage. For all the Sleepy Joe jokes, we are just going to run it back with Trump? I'm old enough to remember Ronald Reagan's 2nd term, and Biden was far more coherent than Reagan ever was.

KH is a flawed candidate and I wish there was a clear explanation on why she dropped out of the 2020 campaign, but I am with the OP, my vote is going to KH.

White males as a majority, haven't voted for a Democratic nominee for president since 1976. The gap between white males and every other demographic seems to be growing larger. White males are getting more and more conservative and everything else is going the other way.
 
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trj said:
Obviously, the OP is a very smart and a well educated person, so I can't add anything to this thread, so I am going to throw out a bunch of the following random thoughts:

Trump is 78 years old and there is clear slippage. For all the Sleepy Joe jokes, we are just going to run it back with Trump? I'm old enough to remember Ronald Reagan's 2nd term, and Biden was far more coherent than Reagan ever was.

KH is a flawed candidate and I wish there was a clear explanation on why she dropped out of the 2020 campaign, but I am with the OP, my vote is going to KH.

White males as a majority, haven't voted for a Democratic nominee for president since 1976. The gap between white males and every other demographic seems to be growing larger. White males are getting more and more conservative and everything else is going the other way.
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The demographic on white males is correct, for now. Except, college educated white males are moving Democratic. Females: Dem leaning big time. Suburban voters, especially women, but also college educated males, used to be Repub big time. Now, dramatic erosion.

Reagan was senile. Joe, too, but was propped up by some good minds. Trump won’t listen to advisors as he plans to surround himself with cult members.

Check out the impact of no taxes on social security. That is a major revenue source for SS. So, the new number for erosion of benefits is now three years, not 5-10. Repubs are backing into destruction of SS by enamoring voters with a tax break. Merciless.

Medicare is next. Reminder: 32 of 33 highly civilized countries have single payer Medicare Style health care. Warning: Before some of you start bashing single payer healthcare, look up the factual characteristics instead of quoting internet geniuses.
Fryowa said:
2 year term limits for congress/senate, $50,000 max salary, and a ten year ban from owing any investments other than index funds or holding positions on boards of companies over $250M in revenue.

The only people who’d run for election are people who have a genuine desire to do what politicians are supposed to do. At that point it doesn’t really matter if we use an electoral college or not.

As long as being a politician is a a likely lifelong job with a high salary and bribes are legal in the form of lobbies providing money and lucrative jobs/positions, what you said will always be true. Everything is F’d up and nothing matters. It’s all an illusion that powerful people give you to placate you into thinking your vote matters and that you’re participating in democracy. This ain’t democracy my friend.
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Yup
 
I'm with Fry on the corruption being too deep for there to be any hope for a politician to make it through a primary who isn't fully corrupt. Where we are different is I still hold out hope that Trump snuck up on them after they let him through for an easy path for Hilary.

The more people who come out against him, the more hope it gives me he really isn't part of the political machine. And I certainly can't take anyone seriously who says something they've "known for years" two weeks before the election.
 
PCHawk said:
I'm with Fry on the corruption being too deep for there to be any hope for a politician to make it through a primary who isn't fully corrupt. Where we are different is I still hold out hope that Trump snuck up on them after they let him through for an easy path for Hilary.

The more people who come out against him, the more hope it gives me he really isn't part of the political machine. And I certainly can't take anyone seriously who says something they've "known for years" two weeks before the election.
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Kelly has been saying these things for years on background (reporters knew who it was coming from and reported as such), he just refused to say it on record. He said the straw that broke that camel's back was Trump's "enemies from within" rants of late, which is why he decided to go on record. My guess is the Harris campaign was also in contact with him and coordinated on the timing of this story, but that doesn't make it any less damning.

Your heuristic that the more close associates of Trump that think he is a dangerous lunatic = more confidence in Trump seems flawed.
 
CP87 said:
Kelly has been saying these things for years on background (reporters knew who it was coming from and reported as such), he just refused to say it on record. He said the straw that broke that camel's back was Trump's "enemies from within" rants of late, which is why he decided to go on record. My guess is the Harris campaign was also in contact with him and coordinated on the timing of this story, but that doesn't make it any less damning.

Your heuristic that the more close associates of Trump that think he is a dangerous lunatic = more confidence in Trump seems flawed.
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So of all the terrible things Trump has either said or supposedly said, the one thar broke the camel's back was there's an enemy within? I'd say a majority of the country thinks there's an enemy within. The only question is who they think that enemy is. I do agree with you that the timing if the story doesn't make it less damning. But it does make it less likely it's true.

My logic on more people speaking out against Trump might be wrong, but it isn't flawed. Remember my opinion is that Washington is full of corrupt people. Why would i want corrupt people to side with Trump? It's possible I'm wrong and there's not mass corruption in Washington. But it's not flawed logic to think it's a good thing that corrupt people speak out against a guy who is trying to end the corruption. In my mind it would be way more damning if Washington was backing Trump.

One thing Trump said that really gives me some hope is he said his first term he didn't know anybody and was convinced by lobbyists to hire certain people who weren't good hires. He says he knows everyone now and will hire people who aren't corrupt. He also said (and everyone on both sides has to concede this is true) that he had the guts to fire people and when people get fired they say bad things about you. He pointed out during the debate that no one got fired for the Afghanistan withdrawal. If Biden would have fired someone, do you think that person would have good things to say about him right before the election? If he wasn't pushed out I mean.
 
trj said:
Obviously, the OP is a very smart and a well educated person, so I can't add anything to this thread, so I am going to throw out a bunch of the following random thoughts:

Trump is 78 years old and there is clear slippage. For all the Sleepy Joe jokes, we are just going to run it back with Trump? I'm old enough to remember Ronald Reagan's 2nd term, and Biden was far more coherent than Reagan ever was.

KH is a flawed candidate and I wish there was a clear explanation on why she dropped out of the 2020 campaign, but I am with the OP, my vote is going to KH.

White males as a majority, haven't voted for a Democratic nominee for president since 1976. The gap between white males and every other demographic seems to be growing larger. White males are getting more and more conservative and everything else is going the other way.
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It's interesting you say everything else is going the other way. All I see are clips about how Trump is doing better with minorities than any republican ever. Yet you're clearly seeing things that suggest otherwise. It really goes to show how full of shit media and social media is. That two people can get "facts" that completely contradict each other.
 
I'm curious to know other people's opinions on whether or not the parties have flipped. Supposedly they flipped years ago. In a lot of ways, it seems like they have again. Liberals used to be anti war, anti big government, anti big corporations, anti big pharma and pro free speech. It really seems like the script flipped on all of those things. It also seems like some democrats that are for all of those things (like Kennedy and Gabbert) switched to Republicans and some Republicans who were known as war mongers (like the Bush's and Chaney's) switched to democrats. Is anyone else seeing this?
 
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