Traveling/Cartwright "foul"

[Not4cy]

That is ridiculous. Since when does an official have no right to make a call. It doesn't matter how far away he was. I can't believe that official called Leur for traveling in the middle of the lane. He was 40 feet away from him. The guy 10 feet away under the basket should have made that call. The distance an official is away doesn't matter. If you see it you call it.

That a boy AT&T Long Distance. You must be one of those old timers that worked a 2 man crew for 25 years and don't understand the mechanics of a 3 man crew. TEAM WORK, buddy. Team Work! Now if a player gets absolutely mugged and everybody in the gym knows it, then yes, any official can get that call.

And I don't really care if you have done multiple state tournament games. It's not what you know, it's who you know and you obviously know somebody in the Athletic Association but many officials have to absolutely hate working with you.

 

[EddyP]

Now we have officials arguing, this is getting interesting.

 

[DuffMan]

Not4Cy any time two officials work together to get the call right it is teamwork. The lead official wasn't ballwatching, he was legitimately following the flight of the inbounds pass to start the clock. If while doing so he saw a violation or a foul that his partner(s) missed it was absolutely correct of him to to call that conference, communicate with the trail official what he saw, and for them to decide together what they had.

You are absolutely correct that "ego" can get in the way of good officiating, but it's been my experience that ego far more frequently manifests itself in the form of "stay out of my area" than it does in form of blowing your whistle outside of your own PCA.

Ohh I should add I've never seen a quality official attempt to publicially insult or demean another official, even if it's Eddie Hightower.

 

[AtownHawk1]

Not4cy is correct and he is owning HawkI101.

 

[DuffMan]

Not4cy is correct and he is owning HawkI101.

He really isn't, I don't know of a single official I respect that wouldn't be ashamed of the attitude he's displaying and the things he is saying. It's really an example of everything that's wrong with officiating in any sport.

 

[Not4cy]

Not4Cy any time two officials work together to get the call right it is teamwork. The lead official wasn't ballwatching, he was legitimately following the flight of the inbounds pass to start the clock. If while doing so he saw a violation or a foul that his partner(s) missed it was absolutely correct of him to to call that conference, communicate with the trail official what he saw, and for them to decide together what they had.

You are absolutely correct that "ego" can get in the way of good officiating, but it's been my experience that ego far more frequently manifests itself in the form of "stay out of my area" than it does in form of blowing your whistle outside of your own PCA.

Ohh I should add I've never seen a quality official attempt to publicially insult or demean another official, even if it's Eddie Hightower.

I agree with most of what you are saying. But let's take for an example a replay in football. The rule clearly states, that there has to be indisputable video evidence to overall a call on the field, correct? So if you are not 110% sure, you can't overrule a call on the field.

In officiating a basektball game, you better make damn sure, 110% sure, that you are correct if you are going to overule a call that another official made especially when you are 40 feet from the play and overruling an official that was 2 feet from the play.

Now, I watched the replay several times in slow motion in several different directions and I am not 100% certain, that that was a foul.

 

[Not4cy]

He really isn't, I don't know of a single official I respect that wouldn't be ashamed of the attitude he's displaying and the things he is saying. It's really an example of everything that's wrong with officiating in any sport.

Thank you for you opinion Duffman! I could say the same exact thing about you.

 

[Not4cy]

Not4Cy any time two officials work together to get the call right it is teamwork. The lead official wasn't ballwatching, he was legitimately following the flight of the inbounds pass to start the clock. If while doing so he saw a violation or a foul that his partner(s) missed it was absolutely correct of him to to call that conference, communicate with the trail official what he saw, and for them to decide together what they had.

You are absolutely correct that "ego" can get in the way of good officiating, but it's been my experience that ego far more frequently manifests itself in the form of "stay out of my area" than it does in form of blowing your whistle outside of your own PCA.

Ohh I should add I've never seen a quality official attempt to publicially insult or demean another official, even if it's Eddie Hightower.

Yes, the lead official was following the flight of the ball to "Chop" the clock but the trail official has the official "Chop" (Start of the clock). I still don't know how an official 40 feet from the play can see that play better than the official 2 feet from the play. Whether you are an official or not, that is common sense.

 

[EddyP]

Yes, the lead official was following the flight of the ball to "Chop" the clock but the trail official has the official "Chop" (Start of the clock). I still don't know how an official 40 feet from the play can see that play better than the official 2 feet from the play. Whether you are an official or not, that is common sense.

You would think. The guy right in front of the play should be embarrassed. His "partner" made him look stupid.

 

[HawkI101]

Yes, the lead official was following the flight of the ball to "Chop" the clock but the trail official has the official "Chop" (Start of the clock). I still don't know how an official 40 feet from the play can see that play better than the official 2 feet from the play. Whether you are an official or not, that is common sense.

I am sure Not4cy is a good official, but some of his views are on the arrogant side and that is what an official shouldn't be. An official that is always right.

My crew and I are not in the good 'ol boys network as we are only in our upper 30's / lower 40's. I am not tooting my horn but we get consistantly get great feedback from coaches because of the way we try to get the call right whether or not that was "my area" or not.

The game is not about the official and if an official would get mad that their call was not the same as anothers is making it about them.

Also, for some reason people are acting this this call was OVERRULED. It was not. Calls are not overruled in basketball. Two people saw the same play, both blew whistles, and both saw it differently. One call has to be the one that they go with. They talk and decide. This is not like football where a call is made and replay overrules it.

 

[Not4cy]

You would think. The guy right in front of the play should be embarrassed. His "partner" made him look stupid.

I couldn't agree with you more Podolac! I would be willing to bet, that he wasn't happy at all either but he went with his buddy's call because he didn't want to act stupid and start arguing with his "teammmate!"

 

[DuffMan]

Thank you for you opinion Duffman! I could say the same exact thing about you.

And you'd be well within your rights to, of course first you'd have to wait for me throw out personal insults about another official.

 

[Not4cy]

I am sure Not4cy is a good official, but some of his views are on the arrogant side and that is what an official shouldn't be. An official that is always right.

My crew and I are not in the good 'ol boys network as we are only in our upper 30's / lower 40's. I am not tooting my horn but we get consistantly get great feedback from coaches because of the way we try to get the call right whether or not that was "my area" or not.

The game is not about the official and if an official would get mad that their call was not the same as anothers is making it about them.

Also, for some reason people are acting this this call was OVERRULED. It was not. Calls are not overruled in basketball. Two people saw the same play, both blew whistles, and both saw it differently. One call has to be the one that they go with. They talk and decide. This is not like football where a call is made and replay overrules it.

I have officiated with dozens and dozens of officials and almost every one of them said that would like to work with me again and I don't even know where to start here. Let's just agree to disagree! Being a team player is not being arrogant in my world son.....as a matter of fact it is completely the opposite.

Now the question for you is, are you arrogant? Because, I never, never think I am so better than my partner to overrule a call half a court away. But obviously, you have no problem with making your partner look foolish. I trust and respect my partners calls, especially when I am in no position to over rule my TEAMMATE. That my friend, is not being ARROGANT!

 

[Not4cy]

And you'd be well within your rights to, of course first you'd have to wait for me throw out personal insults about another official.

I was attacked personally FIRST, my friend.. That's when I got defensive. I didn't get personal, until I was attacked. This was the quote:

"Too many officials are like you and don't want to think they made an incorrect call."

 

[HawkI101]

I have officiated with dozens and dozens of officials and almost every one of them said that would like to work with me again and I don't even know where to start here. Let's just agree to disagree! Being a team player is not being arrogant in my world son.....as a matter of fact it is completely the opposite.

Now the question for you is, are you arrogant? Because, I never, never thing I am so better than my partner to overrule a call half a court away. But obviously, you have no problem with making your partner look foolish. That is how you get in trouble with coaches, players, ect!

I am not arrogant, and yes we will have to agree to disagree. Who knows we may have worked together at one time or another. But your last statement is what irks me a little. You should have no problem making the right call and should have no problem having one of your partners tell you they thought you were wrong. You seem to be more worried about looking foolish cuz you missed a call. All of the coaches I have worked just want the call right and if you are "too good" to communicate to get it right that is when the coaches, fans, and players will be riding you, which makes you look foolish.

 

[Not4cy]

I am not arrogant, and yes we will have to agree to disagree. Who knows we may have worked together at one time or another. But your last statement is what irks me a little. You should have no problem making the right call and should have no problem having one of your partners tell you they thought you were wrong. You seem to be more worried about looking foolish cuz you missed a call. All of the coaches I have worked just want the call right and if you are "too good" to communicate to get it right that is when the coaches, fans, and players will be riding you, which makes you look foolish.

Dude, You are missing the entire point here. I do NOT have a problem with over ruling another official's call if the area is an overlapping area and the other official didn't have as good as look at the play. I ask for "help" on many calls, but I ask for help to the official that will have a good look at it.

I have a problem when an official can "dial" a call in from 3/4 court and totally overrule another official when that official was 2 feet from the play. Seriously, how can you object to that?? Please tell me you aren't one of these AT&T Long Distance officials? Please tell me you wouldn't sell your "teammates" out 3/4 court away!

 

[DuffMan]

I am not arrogant, and yes we will have to agree to disagree. Who knows we may have worked together at one time or another. But your last statement is what irks me a little. You should have no problem making the right call and should have no problem having one of your partners tell you they thought you were wrong. You seem to be more worried about looking foolish cuz you missed a call. All of the coaches I have worked just want the call right and if you are "too good" to communicate to get it right that is when the coaches, fans, and players will be riding you, which makes you look foolish.

Agree 100%. Nearly all of this conversation has been about whether or not the Lead should have made a call in the Trail's PCA NOT about whether or not they got the call right.

The goal of any officiating crew is to work together to get as many calls right as possible. That is even more imperative late in close ballgames (which is exactly what this was).

PS I read that quote and I don't understand why you took that as a personal attack. Regardless I think this has been discussed enough and it doesn't look like anyone is going to change thier opinion any time soon, I think I'm out.

 

[cmonhox]

Not4cy and EddyP, could not agree with you two more. I was not upset about the call, more upset that a ref 40 feet away felt the need to override a ref 2-3 feet away.

Reminded me of a suspect spot in a Fiesta Bowl with Texas and Ohio State on a late 4th down. Ref on the sideline about 5 yards from the plays' end marks the ball for forward progress short of a first down. Lead ref 15-20 yards behind the play runs up and moves the ball forward for a Texas first down. How a lead ref 20 yards behind the play know where forward progress was is beyond me.

Look refs, you can have your view and interpretation of what happened from 40 feet out, but there is no way you can have a better view or angle than a fellow official 3 feet away. Arguing that you have a better view from 40 feet compared to 3 feet is completely ********.

 

[cmonhox]

Didn't know a55inine would be starred out?

 

[HawkI101]

Dude, You are missing the entire point here. I do NOT have a problem with over ruling another official's call if the area is an overlapping area and the other official didn't have as good as look at the play. I ask for "help" on many calls, but I ask for help to the official that will have a good look at it.

I have a problem when an official can "dial" a call in from 3/4 court and totally overrule another official when that official was 2 feet from the play. Seriously, how can you object to that??

I hear what you are saying, but we are talking about this situation. The foul happened first. The travel second, which makes it like the travel never happened. Get together get it right. You can't worry about your area or my area. Yes, you are most responsible for an area but you do not just stare at it, you can see things out of your area. 40 feet is only 1/2 court, that is not that far for me to see something. I would call it chicken **** if you saw something but didn't want to call it because it wasn't in "your" area.

I watch games all the times from stand too and can see incorrect calls made from the ref two feet in front of the play. It happens all the time. I have missed many calls and will continue I am sure, there are times I have missed a call and after it happened knew I missed it and went to the coach to apologize about it.