The health of the people in our country

[Fryowa]

You make some valid points, but let me ask you... do you smoke?

Edit: I think there are merits to interdiction efforts and targeted elimination of drug producing centers, but we've tried that before to a certain extent, and had limited success.

This would be a great discussion topic, as it is complex and challenging. American companies and unfortunately health care providers have been a massive part of the problem. I'm not sure if you're familiar with the story of oxycontin (Purdue pharma) and how it was touted as non-addictive. Their sales efforts, coupled with the Joint Commission's treatment of pain as a "vital sign" required providers to aggressively treat pain. It caused the physical dependence on opiates to skyrocket. When folks finally figured this whole mess out, scores more people were dependent on opiates. When states cracked down on the prescription of opiates through the use of mandated provider registries, the supply of prescribed opiates in the US (a MAJOR source of opiate addiction), dried up. People turned, in desperation, to heroin, and now, fentanyl. The demand skyrocketed from mislabeling,selling, inappropriate prescribing, and the like. It's fascinating, and terrible.

1) I do not smoke. You apparently didn’t read my other posts about the topic in this thread, which is totally fine. I’m a wind bag.

2) We have never interdicted on a large scale. Never.

3) Whether American companies created the opiate problem is moot. Meth production in the US is for all intents and purposes eliminated when looked at as a percentage of total. Opiates are not prescribed willy nilly anymore and are under tight control. It is not a major supplier of the US problem as a percentage of the total. Show me research that says as a percentage of total fentanyl abuse that it is, please.

I’m sorry, but you’re staring a solution to the problem in the face, and because you’re scared of that solution you’d rather forsake the American public. I’d happily pay my tax dollars to fund it as long as needed. What cartels are doing is killing more Americans than any outside element since WW2 and you want to sit back and let “expert” academics who’ve never experienced addiction, in comfy offices making six figures at a university come up with ways to fix it. Those same people haven’t been able to fix it in the last 100 years, but let’s just keep on doing it, right? Hopefully it’ll work some day?

And then we’ll just keep on letting the cartels doing what they’re doing, right? Would you have been fine in 1940 letting Hitler keep operating because maybe we could’ve just talked to him about his methods and just learned to help the Jews and the French and the British? The cartels have enabled the deaths of just as many people globally my friend. It might not have been gas chambers and firing squads, but it’s murder just the same.

 

[PCHawk]

The problem is the same educational methods about narcotics have been used since the 70s and it's had no effect on that. It's actually gotten worse. We can't afford as a country to waste more time on it while people are still getting sucked into that black hole of narcotics. Do we spend 20 more years of scourge trying to figure out how to "educate" people that meth and opiates are bad, or do we go after the people producing it and bringing it here with the full force of our servicepeople?

Our military is constitutionally bound to protect our country from all enemies, foreign or domestic. Let them do it.

I think we should do both.

 

[Fryowa]

I think we should do both.

Imagine if since 9/11 we had put the same budget and effort into eliminating the cartel virus that we did over in the middle east. It wouldn't have taken 20 years, that's for sure.

 

[Westernhawk]

Yeah, I knew that wasn't your intention, but I thought it would be a good extension of the discussion.

The WHO lists hypertension as the leading preventable cause of death, which like obesity, is the result of many other potential factors (including smoking, obesity, stress, physical inactivity, etc.).

I just had a very close friend have a major stroke. He had unchecked/uncontrolled hypertension. He's now in a nursing home. Extremely sad. Everyone stay on top of your blood pressure!!

 

[Westernhawk]

The problem is the same educational methods about narcotics have been used since the 70s and it's had no effect on that. It's actually gotten worse. We can't afford as a country to waste more time on it while people are still getting sucked into that black hole of narcotics. Do we spend 20 more years of scourge trying to figure out how to "educate" people that meth and opiates are bad, or do we go after the people producing it and bringing it here with the full force of our servicepeople?

Our military is constitutionally bound to protect our country from all enemies, foreign or domestic. Let them do it.

Read my post on how the establishment (medicine, drug companies, and regulatory agencies) have really exacerbated the opiate problem. It's a complex issue and one significant factor in these newer waves of synthetic, illicit opiates causing death is the previous over prescription of opiates (where many get their start and then progress to heroin and fentanyl). Now that providers are monitored via state registries for their prescription patterns, many have turned to illicit narcotics (many more than before). It's truly sad that our system made things much worse. If you can work with someone fairly early in their Opiod Use Disorder, you have a chance at helping them via treatment and education. Best thing is to never start, of course.

I'm not saying increased interdiction efforts aren't a part of the solution, but they cannot completely or effectively stop the problem, without working both sides of the equation. I'm not against, I guess, our military bombing Mexican drug production sites (although that might violate international law in peacetime...not sure).

Demand matters a whole lot, and we have to look at both sides of the equation. So, I respectfully disagree with your opinion that early education and intervention are worthless. There are some real factors that lead to these waves of increased opiate use, and to be honest, our medical system did the exact OPPOSITE of education on the dangers of opiates. It encouraged use of oxy and other highly addictive opiates. With Purdue Pharma's deceptive practices, providers and patients were told Oxy and other meds weren't addictive and harmful. It's a huge problem, and now the problem is much worse.. I agree that education alone isn't the answer. It's just that for a few decades we did the exact opposite of education. There is a lot written about it if you're curious, because you're really mistaken if you think we've had decades of educating people about the dangers of opiates.

Bombing things seems like a good idea, but if you have scores of people who are highly motivated and addicted, people will find a way, I think. I suspect, if high profits are involved, cartels will find ways to have better, even more clandestine production. I'm not an expert on that stuff at all. Cheers.

 

[Fryowa]

So, I respectfully disagree with your opinion that early education and intervention are worthless. There are some real factors that lead to these waves of increased opiate use, and to be honest, our medical system did the exact OPPOSITE of education on the dangers of opiates. It encouraged use of oxy and other highly addictive opiates. With Purdue Pharma's deceptive practices, providers and patients were told Oxy and other meds weren't addictive and harmful. It's a huge problem, and now the problem is much worse..

We have tried in this country to educate youth about the dangers of any drug use for going on a century.

It. Does. Not. Work.

Regarding what our medical system and pharmaceutical systems did, I agree. But that problem has largely been solved just like meth labs for all intents and purposes don't exist in the US anymore. Doctors don't prescribe opiates on a large scale anymore. There aren't long, open-ended prescriptions anymore. You can't just go to a pain clinic to get it anymore. Physicians are tracked as far as how much, how often, and in what quantities they prescribe and they lose their license and face prison time if they push pills.

The opiate epidemic may have ben started by our medical system and big pharma, but that genie is out of the bottle and can't be put back in, no matter how much you want to try. Addicts have the taste for it now and that's not going to go away by telling kids in elementary school how bad it is for them. The drugs are in this country and freely available already. Just like cocaine in the 80s, heroin in the 90s, meth, same thing. We've been telling kids how bad drugs are since they became a problem.

The opiates being abused in our country aside from a very small portion abusing pain scripts, are coming from China by way of Mexican and Central American cartels. The meth is being made in Mexico.

You are not going to affect the demand through education. That's been tried since the beginning and failed miserably every time. It's pie in the sky, wishful thinking. You can tell kids till you're blue in the face that opiates and meth are terrible, and show them pictures of the effects, and bring speakers in to talk to them who ruined their lives and did prison time, and try to keep them from running with the wrong crowds, but it simply doesn't work. It never has. They still try it at a party, or with a friend, or get sucked into gangs, or get pulled into the money from dealing etc. and do it anyway. If 3 kids in school get scared off drugs through education but 30 kids don't...is that good enough? Is that considered effective?

You have to go after the supply with full force. It's the only way to make meaningful progress.

 

[PCHawk]

Read my post on how the establishment (medicine, drug companies, and regulatory agencies) have really exacerbated the opiate problem. It's a complex issue and one significant factor in these newer waves of synthetic, illicit opiates causing death is the previous over prescription of opiates (where many get their start and then progress to heroin and fentanyl). Now that providers are monitored via state registries for their prescription patterns, many have turned to illicit narcotics (many more than before). It's truly sad that our system made things much worse. If you can work with someone fairly early in their Opiod Use Disorder, you have a chance at helping them via treatment and education. Best thing is to never start, of course.

I'm not saying increased interdiction efforts aren't a part of the solution, but they cannot completely or effectively stop the problem, without working both sides of the equation. I'm not against, I guess, our military bombing Mexican drug production sites (although that might violate international law in peacetime...not sure).

Demand matters a whole lot, and we have to look at both sides of the equation. So, I respectfully disagree with your opinion that early education and intervention are worthless. There are some real factors that lead to these waves of increased opiate use, and to be honest, our medical system did the exact OPPOSITE of education on the dangers of opiates. It encouraged use of oxy and other highly addictive opiates. With Purdue Pharma's deceptive practices, providers and patients were told Oxy and other meds weren't addictive and harmful. It's a huge problem, and now the problem is much worse.. I agree that education alone isn't the answer. It's just that for a few decades we did the exact opposite of education. There is a lot written about it if you're curious, because you're really mistaken if you think we've had decades of educating people about the dangers of opiates.

Bombing things seems like a good idea, but if you have scores of people who are highly motivated and addicted, people will find a way, I think. I suspect, if high profits are involved, cartels will find ways to have better, even more clandestine production. I'm not an expert on that stuff at all. Cheers.

I'm surprised you know the corruption with big pharma and opioid but give them the benifit of doubt with vaccines.

 

[PCHawk]

How many politicians on both sides of the isle recieve bribes from the cartel?

 

[Westernhawk]

I'm surprised you know the corruption with big pharma and opioid but give them the benifit of doubt with vaccines.

Well, I'm a thoughtful person who has the ability to think critically, and discern.

There is ample evidence about Purdue pharma and their practices. They've lost in court and people have been studying the fallout for years.

Please provide evidence in the same manner about vaccines.

Better yet, never mind. You are like a broken record. "I read it on X" and "Joe Rogan is saying some things." I have no interest in your conspiracy theories. Provide some evidence or do not bother.

 

[CP87]

I'm surprised you know the corruption with big pharma and opioid but give them the benifit of doubt with vaccines.

It is because the body of evidence supports efficacy for vaccines and a very low prevalence of negative side effects that strongly favors their use. And there is a different body of evidence that clearly implicates Purdue in lying about the addictive properties of its product and engaging in unethical means of promotion/distribution.

Evidence matters. Purdue was dissolved for their role in the opioid crisis because of the evidence supporting their malfeasance. If other pharm companies were doing equally shady stuff with vaccines, they would also be punished (eventually). But there is no convincing evidence that has come to light indicating any such thing.

Why would you believe that Purdue could be taken down for malfeasance, but other companies are getting away with such things re: vaccines and everyone is letting it happen?

 

[PCHawk]

It is because the body of evidence supports efficacy for vaccines and a very low prevalence of negative side effects that strongly favors their use. And there is a different body of evidence that clearly implicates Purdue in lying about the addictive properties of its product and engaging in unethical means of promotion/distribution.

Evidence matters. Purdue was dissolved for their role in the opioid crisis because of the evidence supporting their malfeasance. If other pharm companies were doing equally shady stuff with vaccines, they would also be punished (eventually). But there is no convincing evidence that has come to light indicating any such thing.

Why would you believe that Purdue could be taken down for malfeasance, but other companies are getting away with such things re: vaccines and everyone is letting it happen?

One reason is vaccines are exempt from consequences.

 

[PCHawk]

Well, I'm a thoughtful person who has the ability to think critically, and discern.

There is ample evidence about Purdue pharma and their practices. They've lost in court and people have been studying the fallout for years.

Please provide evidence in the same manner about vaccines.

Better yet, never mind. You are like a broken record. "I read it on X" and "Joe Rogan is saying some things." I have no interest in your conspiracy theories. Provide some evidence or do not bother.

Nobody listens to what Joe Rogan says on hos podcasts. They listen to the experts he has on there.

 

[Fryowa]

Nobody listens to what Joe Rogan says on hos podcasts. They listen to the experts he has on there.

“Experts…”

Lolz

 

[PCHawk]

It is because the body of evidence supports efficacy for vaccines and a very low prevalence of negative side effects that strongly favors their use. And there is a different body of evidence that clearly implicates Purdue in lying about the addictive properties of its product and engaging in unethical means of promotion/distribution.

Evidence matters. Purdue was dissolved for their role in the opioid crisis because of the evidence supporting their malfeasance. If other pharm companies were doing equally shady stuff with vaccines, they would also be punished (eventually). But there is no convincing evidence that has come to light indicating any such thing.

Why would you believe that Purdue could be taken down for malfeasance, but other companies are getting away with such things re: vaccines and everyone is letting it happen?

I like your last question in that sentence. Some other answers could be....

Vaccines are overall a net positive so it's better to hide the negative affects.

The opioid situation was so obvious there was simply no way to keep it hidden.

More powerful people would go down with the vaccine scandal.

I'm not saying any of those are true. Just giving some possibilities reasons to your very reasonable question.

 

[PCHawk]

“Experts…”

Lolz

You have no idea who those people are. One is the most published "expert" ever.

 

[Fryowa]

You have no idea who those people are. One is the most published "expert" ever.

Double lolz. I ain’t trying to convince you. Just giggling.

You’ve had too much DMT.

 

[HuckFinn]

My primary care doctor and I have a long term positive relationship. She listens to me. She provides options. She is damn thorough. If I am nervous, she recommends appropriate tests. A couple of times she has lined me up with a good specialist. Does not overdue the drugs. I am old and have some health challenges. But I have been on the planet a long time. And it appears I will have a few more years. Yeah, Yeah. I know. No guarantees.

Why on God’s green earth would I not trust her? She highly recommends vaccines, but I decide. Don’t you guys/gals rely on your physicians? Quite frankly, I don’t listen to 100 different sources. She is my go too. End of story.

I mean no offense, but I think you are missing the boat. Debate away, I guess. Not me.
Oh my God! I wore a mask!

BTW: I get the seasonal flu shot annually. I have taken 4 covid shots and will continue With recommended boosters. I also received the other 3 or 4 shots recommended for those of us over 60. Shingles, Pneumonia, etc. Results: No Covid, no seasonal flu, no shingles, no pneumonia, no nothing. No side effects, except for a lot of comfort and peace of mind.

 

[PCHawk]

Double lolz. I ain’t trying to convince you. Just giggling.

You’ve had too much DMT.

Not sure what's funny about that. Is it funny because when guys who are considered experts their whole career speak out against things they become conspiracy theorists while people say "show me evidence" and "experts say it's safe"? Or is it funny because you think if someone goes on Joe Rogan they are instantly not experts anymore?