In my opinion the media was just the messenger. The connection of the advertising money the media gets from Big Pharma and the uniform way the media attacked subjects (in this case ivermectin) is too big to ignore. Each individual media outlet didn't decide on their own to call ivermectin horse paste. That message obviously came from somewhere. I think allowing Big Pharma to advertise is a recipe for disaster.
The health of the people in our country
- Thread starter Glass1/2fullguy
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Just to be clear, I am fully aware of the possibility that the destroyed trust from covid could be clouding my judgement. I think I do do a pretty good job of staying in the lane of uncertainty instead of going full blown conspiracy theorist. I might not do a perfect job of wording my thoughts, but in my head that's where I'm at. Just very open minded to the likelihood that they're somewhere between "white lies for the greater good" and "outright liars who will make a buck at all costs".
My father-in-law sewed parachutes in England for the Air Force during the Vietnam War.
#1DieHardHawk
Well-Known Member
This is not only true, but applicable to any medical decision that you make - vaccine, medication, surgery, etc. The reality is that any healthcare decision a patient makes has a "benefit versus risk" component. That includes the decision to do nothing at all.
It's a conversation that I literally have at least 20 times a week.
In terms of research, like anything else, it requires a critical eye. It really doesn't matter if big pharma, organizations with an agenda, politicians, etc., fund or support a research project. IF the methodology, accrual, analysis, etc., is done correctly, the information is valid. The same can be said of a truism, regardless of the messenger. Just because you don't like or trust a person doesn't necessarily mean that everything they state is therefore false.
As for vaccines (and research in general), there is a distinction between the science and the way it is used and/or messaged. Calling out politicians, big pharma and lobbyists for manipulating scientific information for nefarious intentions absolutely is fair game but the science is science.
That said, I completely agree with you that the evidence that children and otherwise healthy people benefit from the vaccine is highly questionable, and that every vaccine should be judged by its own merits. Also, there is a "greater good" aspect to vaccinations. That's not necessarily a bad thing. I have many libertarian views, but some edicts make sense - I don't want to put my family in danger of small pox because a group of people are "anti-vaxxers," much like I don't want a billion people deciding to bankrupt the healthcare system by exercising their right to smoke three packs a day, live on Krispy Kreme donuts and drink a fifth of Wild Turkey every day. There has to be some degree of social responsibility.
The real question is, who decides what that level of responsibility entails?
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#1DieHardHawk
Well-Known Member
That's an interesting take. I would argue that the issue is much broader than scientists on the right not participating because they are "anti-expertise" or "anti-establishment."
For decades, academia has gradually cultivated a liberal culture that has become increasingly rigid and dogmatic. To that end, teachers and scientists with right-leaning views have been inappropriately marginalized and frankly demonized to the point where group-think has become doctrine. The end result is that not only are there fewer and fewer of those scientists, but any that exist stand little if any chance at moving up the "academic ladder."
What's interesting to me is that the anti-medical establishment for years was more on the far left. The common accusations were that corporate elites and big Pharma were not to be trusted, so don't vote for Republicans. The lady I referenced above was a staunch left Democrat. Cornel West, a self-professed "democratic socialist," is anti-vaxx, as are liberal actors Robert De Niro and Jim Carrey. I don't think you will find any of them at Trump rallies, unless they are carrying a gun...
I think the anti-vaxx reaction that swelled after Covid in large part relates to the heavy-handed approach the government took with the vaccines, especially knowing now that much of the "science" used to justify the mandates was either false (vaccine success rates) or devoid of scientific basis (masks, 6 foot distancing, etc.). Compound that with the billions of tax-payer dollars being handed over to the pharmaceutical industry, and it's not surprising that people with more libertarian-type views would migrate over to vaccine skepticism. That's very unfortunate, but at the end of the day, the culpability lies with the administration's handling of the pandemic, and the lengths that the media (social and otherwise) went to ostracize anyone who didn't toe the line.
It is interesting that people in education, media, and entertainment all lean left. Is it because people with brains that make them lean left and people with brains that make them go down the career paths of education, media, and entertainment just go hand in hand? Or is it kind of a prerequisite for getting into those careers? Or maybe a combination of both?
Fryowa
Administrator
This is the crux.
It used to be that there were some kids (a lot of kids) who were just the "weird" kids. I can think of way over a handful in my childhood and adolescent days alone who would've been diagnosed as autistic/Asperger's, etc but they weren't. I know there are some who nowadays try to get meds, want attention, but the under-diagnosing aspect is HUGE.
In reality this type of thing (like most things in life) boils down to one or more groups choosing statistics to fit their respective points...with no regard to correlation vs causation.
I trust my gut with a lot of things in life, and even more as I get older. My gut tells me that the autism diagnosis rate is a low-hanging fruit for sensationalists to pick because they need a way to either support their conspiracist tendencies or because they lack critical thinking skills, which may or may not be their faults. Can I prove that? Nope.
But not being able to prove or disprove a point of view has been a problem with the human condition for time immemorial. That isn't going to change this millenia.
What I do know to be true is I'm not going to waste my time going to war with anyone from either side on facebook nor face-to-face. I'm 13 years away from the age my folks both were when they died, I have better shit to worry about and spend energy on in the meantime.
Support the "weird" kids better than we (I) did 20 years ago. Isn't that the important thing? Some people are soo wrapped up in being right that they don't see the real issue. I know I wasn't always a good guy to that crowd as a kid. in fact, I was the opposite of a good guy more times than I want to admit because it made me fit in with the cool crowd. Which is shitty.
I finished it today. That should be mandatory listening for every American. I'm not sure if everything they are saying is true ( since there's money to be made speaking against the establishment too, there's motive to embellish) but some of those statistics are horrible. Even if some of what they say is embellished or outright lies, their overall message against American food is eye opening.You'd find the tucker interview podcast i posted w/ Casey Means MD very interesting. Kennedy is not an expert on what he says and why most don't take what he says seriously. Casey Means is a Standford Med grad and was in the field for like 5 years before her mission changed.
About — Casey Means MD
www.caseymeans.com
Glass1/2fullguy
Well-Known Member
Their message is the point. The question is what do we do about it. They provided some thoughts and ideas towards the end of the interview. It's interesting as i grew up in the 80-90's many people i recall smoked cigarettes. There were a ton of high schoolers and young adults who smoked cigarettes. You could smoke practically anywhere you wanted. Everywhere you turned you could find someone puffing on a cigarette. Smoking sections available at nearly every restaurant. In today's world it almost seems odd to see someone smoking; especially a young person. Obviously there are still those who choose to smoke but they pay for it. They pay for it through w/ higher insurance premiums, w/ the insane cost for cigarettes, and damage to their health. So how did we turn it around from so many people smoking 30 years ago to not many smoking today? We need to figure out a way to do w/ our food supply that which has been achieved in regards to cigarettes/smoking.
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The government not making it cheaper to eat shitty would be a good start.
These people were just on Rogan too. It's nice that this is becoming a talking point. But this movement getting tied to Trump will make half of the country think it's bs. I really hope team Trump wins so I can see if real change is actually made. Imagine living in a country where most people are healthy and government overspending is checked. I'm not holding my breath, but I'd love to see them try to clean these two huge issues up. We can go back to fighting over abortions and guns in four years.You'd find the tucker interview podcast i posted w/ Casey Means MD very interesting. Kennedy is not an expert on what he says and why most don't take what he says seriously. Casey Means is a Standford Med grad and was in the field for like 5 years before her mission changed.
About — Casey Means MD
Glass1/2fullguy
Well-Known Member
Thanks for making me aware Dr Means was on Rogan. I'll have to go take a listen. i don't listen to much of Rogan but will when he interviews people i'm interested in. Dr Means and what she's promoting i'm 1,000% on board with.
HuckFinn
Well-Known Member
I have taken the Covid shots every single time they have been recommended by my Dr. And my Pharmacy. No side effects. No Covid, as far as I can tell. Also get the standard flu shot annually, throwback from my days working in schools. Not scared. Will continue my process. There you go…
Glass1/2fullguy
Well-Known Member
Dr Mean's mission is not about the covid vax or any vax for that matter. But you do you. i have not taken a flu shot in 30 years ever since it was my choice not to do so. And would never take the covid vax. But i'll do me. I understand my immune system and it's strong. I make the choice to keep myself healthy by eating healthy (for the most part), exercising, and not pumping a bunch of pharmaceuticals in my body. I don't need a Dr to help me w/ that. The overall health of our country is horrible and our reliant on pharmaceuticals and pushing pharmaceuticals as the answer to nearly every health issue is a huge problem.
SCHawkeye2
Well-Known Member
There are so-called correlations between the rise of autism and potentially 1000’s of other variables.
What is required for direct causation is evidence.
SCHawkeye2
Well-Known Member
How is “the government” making it cheaper to eat shitty food?
The worser the food, the lower the tax!!
HuckFinn
Well-Known Member
Be well.
The people on the podcast I mentioned talked about it. Something about government subsidizing untraproccessed foods.
Correct. Correlations point to things that should be examined for evidence of causation tho. Some will argue studies have already been done and no evidence was found. Others will argue that the people doing those studies set them up to give the answers they want. I would have never believed corruption could run that deep before covid. Now all I can say is I wouldn't be surprised either way.
