the "21-19" Crowd needs to read this:

[Xerxes]

Kirk is 49-33 in 10 years (forgiving the 2 rebuilding years). The reason you forgive him these results is because he will never have these results again. And to respond to "the Hayden years" comment. Football, from a competitiveness standpoint, has been harder in the current exposure that football has all the way down to recruiting a junior in the HS level. I shouldn't have to make an argument to the exposure that TV has brought us, heck the Big Ten Network is here. Scholarship numbers have changed- too many variables have altered the football landscape.

I hear what you're saying. They were rebuilding years but he was still the head coach. Its his program at that point. He is the one in charge.

Forgiving Kirk for his first 2 years is no different that not giving credit to Tom Davis for his first 3 years as Iowa BB coach when he had GR's recruits. 2 of TD's best 3 seasons ('86-'87 E8 & '87-'88 S16) came during that stretch.

 

[PlanoHawk]

The 1 for 2 guy could be cliff lee with a broken bat single, while the 2 for 20 is Albert pujols with 2 home runs. It's circumstantial evidence that could be twisted to favor any perspective is what my point is.

No, you proved nothing there... if anything you validated his with your stance that stats can be skewed to favor any view you want if you look hard enough. The guy with the broken bat single is probably a really good hitter- hence why he had the ability to still get a hit off Cliff Lee while shattering his bat.

 

[hawkfaninTX]

No, you proved nothing there... if anything you validated his with your stance that stats can be skewed to favor any view you want if you look hard enough. The guy with the broken bat single is probably a really good hitter- hence why he had the ability to still get a hit off Cliff Lee while shattering his bat.

No the hitter *was* Cliff Lee in his one game that he bats in Interleague play. Which is why I made my OP. People are cherry picking stats to favor how bad KF is.

 

[PlanoHawk]

No the hitter *was* Cliff Lee in his one game that he bats in Interleague play. Which is why I made my OP. People are cherry picking stats to favor how bad KF is.

but people are also cherry picking stats to prove how good he is over the "body of work" to diffuse the disappointing 7-5 record this year. it goes both ways.

 

[tm3308]

I hear what you're saying. They were rebuilding years but he was still the head coach. Its his program at that point. He is the one in charge.

Forgiving Kirk for his first 2 years is no different that not giving credit to Tom Davis for his first 3 years as Iowa BB coach when he had GR's recruits. 2 of TD's best 3 seasons ('86-'87 E8 & '87-'88 S16) came during that stretch.

So go ahead and take away TD's first 2 years. Honestly, that's a VERY logical and fair thing to do. Look at Charlie Weis at ND. He won 20 games his first two years with Willingham's players. Larry Coker won a national championship (and very nearly two) with Butch Davis' players. Les Miles did the same thing with Saban's players at LSU.

Was the Doctor a better coach than Raveling? Yes. But he had success those first two years with Raveling's players, who were more talented, top to bottom, than the majority of Davis' teams in later years.

NO coach should ever be judged on their first two years, unless they bring in an influx of their own talent immediately (such as Calipari usually does, illegal or not).

 

[bighawkeyedaddy]

I am not cherry picking stats to show how bad Kirk Ferentz is. My initial post was that I was a little stunned to see that Iowa was barely .500 in the Big Ten over the last 5 years. You attacked me saying that I used stats from a convenient timespan to bolster a case that Ferentz is a bad coach (your words, not mine). So then I go back and compare Ferentz record over his entire Iowa time compared to the same timespan for the previous coach. Again, apparently you don't like those numbers either. I can see that no matter what numbers are provided in any context you are set on your view and I am set on mine.

I think Ferentz is a good coach, definitely above average and bordering on being great. His stubbornness to adapt to his teams abilities and to shake up his coaching staff for any reason is in my opinion one of the things keeping him from being great. I am of the opinion that Hayden did just as much if not more for Iowa football, so I don't see why everyone on the "Kirk does no wrong" bandwagon likes to just explain away mediocre seasons. If you take away Hayden's first 2 seasons like you think we should for Kirk, Iowa won 8 games or more 8 of the next 10 seasons.

Michigan and Ohio State did dominant the Big Ten in the 80's. And then there was another team called Iowa, that during that first 12 years of Hayden's tenure went to 3 Rose Bowls, won 3 Big Ten championships, and stepped up and took that 3rd spot in the pecking order. Why can't Iowa step up and become that 2nd team now that Michigan is down?

What do you consider a great season? Is it winning 8 or 9 games and going to a good bowl game, or is it winning the conference and going to BCS bowls? Would it stun you to find out Iowa went to the same amount of Rose Bowls and had more 10 win seasons in the 80's than Ohio State did?

 

[Rawkhawk73]

Kirk is 49-33 in 10 years (forgiving the 2 rebuilding years). The reason you forgive him these results is because he will never have these results again. And to respond to "the Hayden years" comment. Football, from a competitiveness standpoint, has been harder in the current exposure that football has all the way down to recruiting a junior in the HS level. I shouldn't have to make an argument to the exposure that TV has brought us, heck the Big Ten Network is here. Scholarship numbers have changed- too many variables have altered the football landscape.

If you don't want to have an HONEST debate, then just say so. But don't insult people's intelligence in this thread by pulling out all the data or not giving credence to data that doesn't support your argument.

And I highlighted a portion of your post above in order to highlight your ignorance. In case you don't recall, KF was 3-5 in the Big Ten in 2000 and then went 2-6 in the Big 10 in 2006. So he did have the results again that he had in 2000 (one of his first 2 years)....in fact, they were worse.

I don't know why it's so hard to admit that KF's record in his 12 years at Iowa has been average, at best. He's had some incredible seasons and he's had some god-awful seasons. He's also had 2 different teams quit on him in the last 5 years.

I love the guy as a person.....he's probably one of the best all time human beings in college football EVER. However, I'm not so blinded by my love of Kirk the Person that I can't be critical and honest in my assessment of Kirk the Coach. At the end of the day I think it's safe to say that Kirk the Coach is probably one of the best ever at taking average to above average football players and turning them into good to great college players and solid NFL players, but he's, at best, a below average gameday coach.

 

[clicheusername3]

STAT WARRRRR!!!!! STTTTAAAAAAAAAAATTT WAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!

 

[spudhawk]

I love the guy as a person.....he's probably one of the best all time human beings in college football EVER. However, I'm not so blinded by my love of Kirk the Person that I can't be critical and honest in my assessment of Kirk the Coach. At the end of the day I think it's safe to say that Kirk the Coach is probably one of the best ever at taking average to above average football players and turning them into good to great college players and solid NFL players, but he's, at best, a below average gameday coach.

This is probably a pretty cogent analysis. I think you said in one paragraph what i have been trying to say in 50 different posts since Saturday. I love the way Ferentz represents Iowa. I love the identity and schemes of Iowa football that he has brought with him as the Head Coach.

What I don't like is his philosophy tends to keep both teams in the game. I can think off the top of my head some of those close wins that shouldn't have belonged in that list- UNI, ARKY ST from 2009, Indiana from 2010. I can think of some of the close losses that could have been wins- ISU 2007, Pitt 2008, Northwestern 2008, 2009, 2010, Indiana 2006, Minnesota 2010. I would like to break down each one of those games over the course of the off season and see what they have in common. My guess would be a key component in all the losses would be a missed field goal, an untimely turnover and a failure to execute a two minute offense at the end of either half.

 

[hawkdrummer1]

Agree for the most part Spud. But I think the "philosophy" and "schemes" are tied together.

 

[GoHawks24]

However, I'm not so blinded by my love of Kirk the Person that I can't be critical and honest in my assessment of Kirk the Coach. At the end of the day I think it's safe to say that Kirk the Coach is probably one of the best ever at taking average to above average football players and turning them into good to great college players and solid NFL players, but he's, at best, a below average gameday coach.

Couldn't have said it any better myself. All of that work they've put in (training, teaching, developing) is a complete waste if you can't manage it the right way on game day. This staff gets out-coached so much it's not even funny. And for how much Kirk's salary is, that's not acceptable.

 

[tm3308]

Agree for the most part Spud. But I think the "philosophy" and "schemes" are tied together.

On defense, you're right. The scheme on offense is pro-style. You can be aggressive out of a pro-style set quite easily (see: USC dynasty).

 

[HaydensHawk]

HawkfaninTX - is that a flat bill you are wearing....?

 

[silvanthalas]

80's. It was called the Big 2 and the Little 10 for a reason.

Which is why Iowa had Big Ten titles in 1981, 1985, and 1990. Oh, wait.

Now, if you want to talk about the 70's specifically, when the only time a school aside from Michigan and OSU won a title/share was MSU in 1978, ok then.

But it's interesting how the Big Ten currently isn't considered Ohio State and Everybody Else, seeing as they've now won/shared 6 straight titles (3 of them outright), a Big Ten record.