thedukeofearl
Well-Known Member
China can just lower wages to cover the tariff cost
Workers have no say in the matter
Rather similar to slave labor
Ten % is pennies to them
Tariffs
- Thread starter Fryowa
- Start date
China can just lower wages to cover the tariff cost
Workers have no say in the matter
Rather similar to slave labor
Ten % is pennies to them
thedukeofearl
Well-Known Member
Yeah and the cost-of-living continues to rise and will probably never go down
At Hy-Vee there are no Eggland Eggs on the shelf and other free-range eggs are about
$6 a dozen, not gonna bitch about paying a dollar or two extra for eggs
They are a solid source of protein and are quite versatile
However, Everything else at Hy-Vee on every shelf is constantly going up and up
Again, with no end in site
I am not certain that wages will consequently go up
Elon despises the non-billionaires
And whatever elon wants elon gets
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Lose an argument? Maybe from CP87, but not from you.
I will say this Fry. It's hard to give or interpret exact meanings on a message board. When you read the name on the post you already have an idea of their style so itit'to have a preconceived notion of what the post meaning will be. Thats a huge isssue that im sure we all deal with to some extent. Also when a post is long and packed with a lot of stuff, its easy to just respond to something you either disagree with or agree a lot with. The other stuff kinda gets ignored. I try to do a good job of saying things like "i agree with all of this but this" and things like that (this is something i dont see a lot of from other posters, and sure as hell you would never say it) but I could probably do a better job of that. Just know that the "fact filled" posts you mentioned in the post I quoted, I don't ignore it. I do make an effort to take it all in.
Also one other issue with message boards that I see frequently is sometimes someone complety agrees with something and is just trying to add more to it and it comes off like you're arguing the point. I've even had that specific issue with you recently where you say something I agree with, I say something thinking I'm adding to it, then you go off on a tangent thinking I'm disagreeing with you. It's definitely an issue.
InGoodCo
Well-Known Member
I'm confused if they work or don't work and it appears, so are the powers that be. I feel like it can't be both ways. Either these things work and are great and we all just need to buckle down and get past it the best we can because it's best for the long term right? Ok, let's go. I am ready. I like a plan. I can get behind a plan. 3 days in, we pause it? Make that make sense. If it's so good for us, why stop it? Why continue to start and stop them, and threaten them and severe ties with all of our trade allies?
Fryowa
Administrator
Tariffs can work in some certain, measured ways against a targeted subset of countries. What’s happening now isn’t measured at all.
One economist put it best, tariffs are effective when used as a surgeon’s scalpel, not as a sledgehammer.
This (if it continues) is going to be Smoot-Hawley Part 2 and we all know what happened after Smoot Hawley. If you don’t you should learn about it.
One economist put it best, tariffs are effective when used as a surgeon’s scalpel, not as a sledgehammer.
This (if it continues) is going to be Smoot-Hawley Part 2 and we all know what happened after Smoot Hawley. If you don’t you should learn about it.
Westernhawk
Well-Known Member
My understanding of tariffs is that they can be used for a limited time in targeted ways. However, using them as blunt, across the board clubs to punish other countries results in everyone losing. Some lose a lot, some lose a little, but everyone loses.
To me, in my sorta humble opinion, our current leaders sees every negotiation as a zero sum game, akin to some kind of real estate deal, where you have a winner and a loser. I don't think international trade works like that.
The bigger problem, to me (other than the obvious inflation that will come from this new tax... it IS a tax on us), is that countries will not feel confident about investing in the US.
The bond market freaked out the Trump administration, as the bond yield went up as the market went down (which is apparently very unusual). This may signal a lack of confidence in the US, as countries holding our debt (bondholders) are counties like Japan. They may be getting shy of investing in the US. That's a big problem if that sort of thing evolves.
To me, in my sorta humble opinion, our current leaders sees every negotiation as a zero sum game, akin to some kind of real estate deal, where you have a winner and a loser. I don't think international trade works like that.
The bigger problem, to me (other than the obvious inflation that will come from this new tax... it IS a tax on us), is that countries will not feel confident about investing in the US.
The bond market freaked out the Trump administration, as the bond yield went up as the market went down (which is apparently very unusual). This may signal a lack of confidence in the US, as countries holding our debt (bondholders) are counties like Japan. They may be getting shy of investing in the US. That's a big problem if that sort of thing evolves.
#1DieHardHawk
Well-Known Member
Whether someone is a Trump supporter or not, you have to admit, he has balls (many would say it's more "lack of brain..." but that's a different argument).
One of the major pitfalls of out democratic system is the disincentive to make any decision that would hurt initially, but potentially pay off in the future. Politicians, by their very nature, are forced to think in very short terms and how they can make their constituents happy now, with no deference to long-term consequences. It's all about getting votes, not what's necessarily good for our country. That, in a nutshell, is why we have this non-sustainable national debt and are on a path to bankruptcy and default.
My gut is that's what's going on right now is much more than just tariffs, it's about an attempt to reset how the U.S. is positioned in the world's economy, and, perhaps more importantly, its positioning in regards to power and influence.
China is somewhat unique and a huge challenge. Fry is completely correct about China's inherent ability to adjust and withstand economic pressures due to its usage of child and slave labor. It's an extremely disturbing and sad advantage, but an advantage nonetheless. By resetting broadly with hundreds of other countries, I think Trump's plan is to isolate China more and more, and chip away at that advantage by leveraging the access to U.S. markets.
Time will tell how all of this ends up. It will interesting to revisit this in about 8-10 years.
One of the major pitfalls of out democratic system is the disincentive to make any decision that would hurt initially, but potentially pay off in the future. Politicians, by their very nature, are forced to think in very short terms and how they can make their constituents happy now, with no deference to long-term consequences. It's all about getting votes, not what's necessarily good for our country. That, in a nutshell, is why we have this non-sustainable national debt and are on a path to bankruptcy and default.
My gut is that's what's going on right now is much more than just tariffs, it's about an attempt to reset how the U.S. is positioned in the world's economy, and, perhaps more importantly, its positioning in regards to power and influence.
China is somewhat unique and a huge challenge. Fry is completely correct about China's inherent ability to adjust and withstand economic pressures due to its usage of child and slave labor. It's an extremely disturbing and sad advantage, but an advantage nonetheless. By resetting broadly with hundreds of other countries, I think Trump's plan is to isolate China more and more, and chip away at that advantage by leveraging the access to U.S. markets.
Time will tell how all of this ends up. It will interesting to revisit this in about 8-10 years.
Fryowa
Administrator
China is the 2nd largest bond-holder right behind Japan. That's why this was such a dumb move to target China alone. They have enough bonds to tank that market if they want (and they know it), and Trump has no "trump" card. He rolled the dice thinking China would balk (likely told that by his advisors), and now he's painted into a corner he can't get out of. China has many advantages over the US and we have none over them.
1. China holds an insane amount of US debt.
2. Communist country that has control over the information their people hear, and Xi doesn't have to worry about re-election, term limits, or midterms.
3. China has been preparing for this for years...since the first Trump administration.
4. The Chinese people have generations of suffering behind them and they aren't used to the cozy lifestyle we are where we get whatever we want cheaply. Their people can weather being uncomfortable better than we can. If food and fuel become expensive, the government subsidizes and rations it, and the people can't/won't complain en masse.
5. With the US tariffs in effect China has a whole world now much more interested in its goods.
6. Billions of people's worth of cheap labor.
Trump has 2 choices...1) keep the tariffs in effect until the economy inevitably self-destructs, or 2) backpedal and look like a weak, impotent, embarrassed old man told to go to his room. He's almost 80 years old and has billions on paper and hundreds of millions in cash available. I'll let you decide which one you think he'll pick.
Westernhawk
Well-Known Member
The problem with using Tariffs as a blunt instrument for every country is that you get unintended consequences.
Do you think iphones will be assembled in the US? Do you think clothes will be made in the US?
If so, you'd have to get Americans to do very manual labor. Also, the cost of clothing and iphones would go up dramatically.
With trade wars, it is my understanding that everyone loses to some extent. Some countries lose more than others. I'm not sure that's the best way to go about resetting any specific imbalances.
Also (and this may already be starting), countries will lose faith in the US and we may start to lose foreign investment in the US, as we're no longer "safe" or "trusted."
The same people who voted for Trump's promise of "lowering prices, day one" are talking about short term pain now. So incredibly incoherent and maybe even intellectually dishonest (or perhaps I'm giving MAGA folks too much credit).
Here's what we're really getting:
1. Increased consumer prices (inflation)
2. A big, regressive tax increase (I thought these folks hated taxes...tariffs are a type of consumption tax, in a way).
3. Pissed off allies
4. Likely decreased foreign investment
I'd be very surprised if this all works out well. It seems nearly every economist, and history, are on my side with this. Look at our own history with tariffs. Not good.
So, Trump wants to decrease taxes for the top two tax brackets and institute tariffs, which disproportionately affect the middle and lower class. So, I get it. You all should too.
#1DieHardHawk
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure who you are lecturing to, here. Where exactly in my post did I express my approval of Trump's strategy?
Fryowa
Administrator
Aside from the labor and higher cost piece, the biggest barrier is infrastructure. Even if you could find people to work, and even if you could find those people cheap enough, there’s no factories in the US able to do it. China exported over 330,000,000 vehicle tires last year. The US tire factories if operating at full capacity (which isn’t going to happen regardless) can only produce 11 million vehicle tires per year. There simply aren’t even a fraction of a percent of the factories in the US that there are in China. Shoes? No shoe factories in the US. Trailer couplers? No factories in the US. TVs? Clothes? Microprocessors? The list goes on and on and on.
Trump and his people know full well that the US can’t just miracle tens of thousands of factories (not exaggerating) into existence in a year or two and there aren’t enough people to work in them anyway. Trump took a stubborn gamble that China would back down and they ain’t gonna. It’s as simple as an ill-advised pissing match that Trump cannot win. One of two things is going to happen…either Trump admits he’s beat by rescinding the tariffs or he sticks it out until our economy is destroyed. Even if your retired with your investments in what until now was a safe space, look at the bond market. There hasn’t been this kind of instability in the T-bond market in modern history in the US. If you’re in your 60s or 70s and this thing g keeps on for a while, you’re better off with your cash buried in fruit jars under your front porch. I truly don’t think US citizens understand how insane this thing is going to be.
Oh sweet. The guy who writes 5 paragraph posts talking about how much he doesn't care, cares enough about my posts to delete them all. It's one thing to be pathetic enough to delete the posts that references him. But now he just deletes every post I type. Man, he clearly doesn't care.
Fryowa
Administrator
Your last three posts here after the Trump thread was closed had nothing to do with tariffs. One was “the democrats have been telling us to do tariffs for 30 years, blah blah.” But, but, but…whaddabout democrats! derp, derp…Nothing to do with tariffs and everything to do with continuing what you were doing in the Trump thread. You’re mad because your toy got taken away.
The next one was a Twitter post about Trump with nothing to do with tariffs.
The next one was “Trump wants to eliminate income taxes on anyone making less than $150K.”
Your posts before that were the same thing.
You got mad after the Trump thread got closed (which several people PMd me asking to to do that long before I did, btw) and so you come to this one and all you’re doing is continuing to try and bait people into arguing with you about Trump. It has nothing to do with the tariff, you just want to troll people. You also can’t say I didn’t warn you because you can see my post here saying this isn’t going to be turned into the Trump thread, and I also deleted the posts of 3 other people responding to your troll bait.
And deleting all your posts? LOL. Is this some “fake news” to use one of your favorite terms? The only posts of yours I’ve ever removed were your troll posts, and people can clearly see some other ones you made in the basketball forum after that. No deleting there.
You’re nothing more than a troll who wants to bait people into arguing about Trump because you’re a fan of his, and it has nothing to do with the thread topic. At all. Why you can’t go to Reddit or Twitter where you’ll find millions of people to argue with you about the topic I don’t know. Oh wait, I do know…you just want to start Trump arguments for the sake of starting Trump arguments.
Fryowa
Administrator
Finally…a reason. Thank you.
JoeyLabasForPresident
Well-Known Member
A large amount of my knowledge in this area is infantile. I'm going to preface this with a couple general principles.
1. I believe in free trade.
2. What we currently have... Isn't really free trade. And I mean, before the tariff stupidity. When we live in a world where China, a "Communist Utopia:tm:" is exploiting the labor of its people to enrich its ruling class, while redistributing wealth from its own tax (and tariff) policies to keep those anticompetitive enterprises afloat, that looks to me like a long-term national security risk.
3. I don't trust Trump or his administration to lead us through anything resembling whatever the F they think they're doing. And I was a Trump voter, to be clear.
Now a question that comes to mind. It took a while to get to where we are, but ultimately, what did the landscape look like before NAFTA? I can't say with any meaningful granularity, beyond the fact that a lot more manufacturing happened here. I'm certain it would take a very long time to unwind some of our foreign manufacturing and bring some of it back. I also think we need a lot more level-headed leadership than we currently have to even begin to form a coherent strategy leading us back in that direction.
Certainly, China didn't used to be the global export powerhouse it is today. Some goods will have to be more expensive in the short term under any sort of attempt to resolve whatever issues might exist, and even medium to long term if that trade relationship is a thing that's worth rolling back. I'm not against suggesting there may be merits to exploring that option. I just wish we had strong enough leadership to try to formulate, I don't know, any sort of plan.
1. I believe in free trade.
2. What we currently have... Isn't really free trade. And I mean, before the tariff stupidity. When we live in a world where China, a "Communist Utopia:tm:" is exploiting the labor of its people to enrich its ruling class, while redistributing wealth from its own tax (and tariff) policies to keep those anticompetitive enterprises afloat, that looks to me like a long-term national security risk.
3. I don't trust Trump or his administration to lead us through anything resembling whatever the F they think they're doing. And I was a Trump voter, to be clear.
Now a question that comes to mind. It took a while to get to where we are, but ultimately, what did the landscape look like before NAFTA? I can't say with any meaningful granularity, beyond the fact that a lot more manufacturing happened here. I'm certain it would take a very long time to unwind some of our foreign manufacturing and bring some of it back. I also think we need a lot more level-headed leadership than we currently have to even begin to form a coherent strategy leading us back in that direction.
Certainly, China didn't used to be the global export powerhouse it is today. Some goods will have to be more expensive in the short term under any sort of attempt to resolve whatever issues might exist, and even medium to long term if that trade relationship is a thing that's worth rolling back. I'm not against suggesting there may be merits to exploring that option. I just wish we had strong enough leadership to try to formulate, I don't know, any sort of plan.
