Scott Dochterman just had an interesting stat

MLTTM

New Member
I would guess that most coaches would go with what's working. If your strategy is successful most of the time then stay with it. if it's not, which is the case with Fran right now, then for crying out loud try something different.
 

PCHawk

Well-Known Member
AGAIN.... this thread isn't about "all coaches". The original point was Fran's record in close "end of game" situations and the fact that he tends to not call a TO. His stats are pretty clear.

We can talk coaching theory over beers all day, that's great. How to use a timeout, when to use it, what a coach says to his guys...there are many strategic models. But the point is Fran's approach and the results he's gotten...on which the numbers would seem pretty clear.


I think other coaches stats matter because if one coach has a really good record with not calling timeouts and another has a really bad record not calling timeouts, it tells me that timeouts aren't the issue. Like someone said earlier, Crean didn't call timeout and Yogi buried a contested 3. We called timeout and Jok missed a wide open 3.

I'm not saying Fran doesn't have other late game coaching issues. I'm saying if calling not calling timeout for the last possession mattered, it would show up in other coaches stats too. Unless you think Fran isn't as good at yelling out a play from the bench as other players are.
 

PCHawk

Well-Known Member
It's like in football, most coachs take the ball 2nd in overtime. If one coach had a bad record who took the ball first, you would have to look at other coaches records who took the ball first to see if there was a coorilation. Do stats back up that that's the problem. If not, then there's probably something else that's causing the bad record.
 

SteveGarvey

Well-Known Member
So what! Luke didn't like calling timeouts in those situations either.

And I remember us losing a lot of close games under Lute. Toledo, Wichita St., Purdue, Minnesota, Villanova all come to mind. Don't remember whether he called timeouts or not though but it sounds like he probably didn't.
 

PCHawk

Well-Known Member
I would guess that most coaches would go with what's working. If your strategy is successful most of the time then stay with it. if it's not, which is the case with Fran right now, then for crying out loud try something different.

I confess I'm not really good at following x's and o's. Does he always do the exact same thing? I would guess he does try different stuff. But like I said, I'm not great at following that part of the game.
 

WindsorHawk

Well-Known Member
That's a goofy stat. So apparently Iowa was BEHIND in all 15 of those games if he's saying they could tie or take the lead. So even if they tied on a late shot, doesn't guarantee they win the game. Could still go to overtime and lose or other team could score after Iowa. So they are 4-11 in games where they are BEHIND in the last 11 seconds. Well, I would imagine almost every team wouldn't have a very good record considering they are at a distinct disadvantage in that situation.

Not that I'm impressed by late game heroics of Iowa but those stats don't really mean a whole lot. It's cherry picking stats. Show me the same stats for other teams. Without comparing to others, doesn't mean much.

I agree.
 

WindsorHawk

Well-Known Member
Gee, I wonder why so many coaches call those timeouts then...to gather their team and strategize. Clearly they're all doing it wrong.

AGAIN.... this thread isn't about "all coaches". The original point was Fran's record in close "end of game" situations and the fact that he tends to not call a TO. His stats are pretty clear.

We can talk coaching theory over beers all day, that's great. How to use a timeout, when to use it, what a coach says to his guys...there are many strategic models. But the point is Fran's approach and the results he's gotten...on which the numbers would seem pretty clear.

Contradict yourself much? Every post you make in this thread makes you look even more obtuse and less informed.
 

tm3308

Well-Known Member
I don't get too bent out of shape about the timeout thing.... We need a play making PG... Did Crean call a timeout to draw up a play to seal the win last night?? No Yogi just made a play. Players need to make plays.

We've been bad for multiple minute stretches at the end of games... That's not on Fran.

Unless maybe this is a team that would benefit more from the TO than just letting it go (which would explain why the bad stretches keep happening).
 

WindsorHawk

Well-Known Member
Unless maybe this is a team that would benefit more from the TO than just letting it go (which would explain why the bad stretches keep happening).

You may be right. But a veteran team should know the plays and be able to execute them without having it drawn up on a white board during a timeout. Next season I think it might make more sense to call timeouts late to make sure all of the young guys are on the same page...1st option, 2nd option, etc.
 

PCHawk

Well-Known Member
Unless maybe this is a team that would benefit more from the TO than just letting it go (which would explain why the bad stretches keep happening).

I think that maybe they would benifit from timeouts. On the other hand. After seeing them play so many times like the fix was in, I really don't think there is any hope for the senior class. As it relates to closing out close games. They can get on a roll again and start winning big. Or they can get lucky like Florida State and the other team can just screw up more. But as far as putting it together and taking close games, I think it's too late. Especially since they're going the wrong direction.
 

DJL

Well-Known Member
I don't get too bent out of shape about the timeout thing.... We need a play making PG... Did Crean call a timeout to draw up a play to seal the win last night?? No Yogi just made a play. Players need to make plays.

We've been bad for multiple minute stretches at the end of games... That's not on Fran.
But when you don't have Yogi and you fail over and over, shouldn't you try something different? Like maybe calling a timeout? Most coaches DO call a timeout towards the end of games to get everyone on the same page. Under 4 minutes we stand around and **** ourselves so maybe it's time to try something different?
 

PCHawk

Well-Known Member
But when you don't have Yogi and you fail over and over, shouldn't you try something different? Like maybe calling a timeout? Most coaches DO call a timeout towards the end of games to get everyone on the same page. Under 4 minutes we stand around and **** ourselves so maybe it's time to try something different?

Everything went to hell after a TV timeout last game. If a TV timeout doesn't help, how is a normal timeout going to help?
 

DJL

Well-Known Member
Everything went to hell after a TV timeout last game. If a TV timeout doesn't help, how is a normal timeout going to help?
You make a good point. However, there was a possession around the 2 minute mark where literally everyone was just standing around watching Mike dribble. The announcers were even saying someone has got to move! That would've been a time to call timeout and set something up. I actually agree with Fran in the way that these seniors SHOULD be able to execute something on their own or hear a play called from the sideline and go, but clearly they can't. I'm just saying he has to try something different. I don't care if it's a time out or putting different guys in, or having go to set plays at the end of game, anything different. Maybe nothing will work, and these guys are just hopeless at the end of games. I don't know.
 

PCHawk

Well-Known Member
You make a good point. However, there was a possession around the 2 minute mark where literally everyone was just standing around watching Mike dribble. The announcers were even saying someone has got to move! That would've been a time to call timeout and set something up. I actually agree with Fran in the way that these seniors SHOULD be able to execute something on their own or hear a play called from the sideline and go, but clearly they can't. I'm just saying he has to try something different. I don't care if it's a time out or putting different guys in, or having go to set plays at the end of game, anything different. Maybe nothing will work, and these guys are just hopeless at the end of games. I don't know.


The announcers only said that because they heard me yell MOVE from the stands. I know exactly when you're talking about. These kids have no problem the whole game and just freeze up at the end. I agree Fran has to try something. I'm sure he is racking his brain on what he can do. I'm sure he's even doing some things fans can't see. When nothing works it looks like you're doing nothing.
 

DJL

Well-Known Member
The announcers only said that because they heard me yell MOVE from the stands. I know exactly when you're talking about. These kids have no problem the whole game and just freeze up at the end. I agree Fran has to try something. I'm sure he is racking his brain on what he can do. I'm sure he's even doing some things fans can't see. When nothing works it looks like you're doing nothing.
I agree, with you here. I've coached youth sports for a number of years and I don't know how many times I've drawn something up or talked about something in the huddle and a few minutes later I was saying to myself "what in the world was that"?

I have been frustrated with Fran because of these late game collapses but there something to be said for the saying "it's not about the x's and o's, it's about the Jimmys and the Joes." If you have the right guy, like Yogi for example, your job as a coach gets much easier.
 

PCHawk

Well-Known Member
I agree, with you here. I've coached youth sports for a number of years and I don't know how many times I've drawn something up or talked about something in the huddle and a few minutes later I was saying to myself "what in the world was that"?

I have been frustrated with Fran because of these late game collapses but there something to be said for the saying "it's not about the x's and o's, it's about the Jimmys and the Joes." If you have the right guy, like Yogi for example, your job as a coach gets much easier.

And the good coaches like Izzo get those types of players all the time, making them look like geniuses in close games.
 

hawkdrummer1

Well-Known Member
Contradict yourself much? Every post you make in this thread makes you look even more obtuse and less informed.

Generalities and specifics.

Saying that timeouts are a significant part of coaching and strategy in game of basketball is a general point.

Looking at the stats of one coach's use of timeouts in an clearly-defined scenario is a specific analysis.

Where exactly do you see a contradiction. (secondly, can you response without being a snarky smart azz)
 
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ibahawkeye

Well-Known Member
I'll agree... we did have one really bad possession in which there was absolutely no movement and it looked like they were trying to get it set up for Jok to start on one side and go baseline and get a double pick to get set up for shot but we couldn't ever get the floor balanced the way we wanted and it ended up in a mess.
 

PCHawk

Well-Known Member
Not good with the difference between generalities and specifics?

Saying that timeouts are a significant part overall in the game of basketball is a general point.

Looking at the stats of one coach's use of timeouts in an clearly

I could understand if there is statistics that show that coaches who call timeouts late have more success that coaches who don't. And maybe that is the case. But if statistics don't show it's a stragety issue , I just can't get to the point where I believe Fran can't do it but others can.

If Fran is truly a coach who can't coach his team to a close win, that means the best thing he can do is stay out of the way. That last line isn't to defend him as a coach. It's to argue against the "if he would only call a timeout" crowd.
 
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