Roster Talent Evaluation

[CAARHawk]

I think Horner was a better all around PG on a better all around team. On a team like this, I think Cartwright is a better fit and helps us more than Hornere could. Cartwright can create his own offense and this team desperately needs that. And yes I do think that Cartwright can put this team on his back better than Horner could, and that is not saying he is a better player or all around pg.

Horner put the team on his back for the entire Big Ten tournament. I think you may just not have seen him play much. Dude consistently hit the big shot when it was needed.

I watched that undefeated home season. When the team needed a shot, Jeff constantly delivered. Bryce was very much hit and miss in that department.

I think the issue is that you don't see anyone else on the team today that can do that. This is true. But that shouldn't diminish Jeff's contribution.

 

[smoot27]

Horner put the team on his back for the entire Big Ten tournament. I think you may just not have seen him play much. Dude consistently hit the big shot when it was needed.

I watched that undefeated home season. When the team needed a shot, Jeff constantly delivered. Bryce was very much hit and miss in that department.

I think the issue is that you don't see anyone else on the team today that can do that. This is true. But that shouldn't diminish Jeff's contribution.

Jeff was better than Cartwright in every aspect of the game. Shot the 3-ball at 35% rate compared to 27% for Cartwright. Took better care of the ball (A/T ration of 1.99 to 1.78). Dominated him in rebounding (4.1 per game to 2.9). Steals per game (1.4 to .9). Getting to the line (114 to 75 FT attempts). There is no comparison between the two in terms of talent at this point in time. I think fans overrated Cartwright a little because we are so void of talent and the perception is that he is better than what he is because he's probably our 2nd or 3rd best player.

 

[smoot27]

Let's also keep in mind that Horner was probably the 3rd best player on that team behind Haluska and Brunner and he's still better than Cartwright. That shows how far we have to go when you can make an argument that Cartwright is our #2. Our current best player, Basabe, would have been the #3 on the 05-06 team.

 

[Lazersharpe]

I think it depends on what you are looking for out of your point guard. Cartwright is not going to bomb 3's like Horner. Cartwright is more of a drive dish point guard or create in the lane type of point guard. The biggest knock on Cartwright is his size. Some may say he doesn't take care of the ball, but he had to try to create more shots since no one else on the team can dribble drive. I think he could start for most other Big Ten teams depending on what there needs are.

Gatens is a tweener. He is to slow for a SG and too small for a forward. He does everything okay, but doesn't do anything above average. In another system, he may benefit, but in Fran's system, he is a role player at best.

 

[MikeyJoe]

Cartwright would be a great PG on a team that didn't need him to shoot.

 

[smoot27]

Cartwright would be a great PG on a team that didn't need him to shoot.

I don't think there's anything in his historical stats to suggest that he would be great. An ok pass first pg is about his ceiling. Which of these pg's would you take him over in the Big Ten:

Aaron Craft - OSU
Demetri McCamey - Ill
Darius Morris - Mich
Lewis Jackson - Pur
Jordan Taylor - Wis
Kalin Lucas - Mich St
Talor Battle - Penn State
Michael Thompson - Northwestern

Best case scenario, Cartwright is a middle of the road pg in the Big Ten. You can try to make the argument that he doesn't have talent around him, but his stats were horrible when he played at Fresno St as well and slightly better than mediocre at Juco level.

 

[IATrainMaster101]

Jeff was better than Cartwright in every aspect of the game. Shot the 3-ball at 35% rate compared to 27% for Cartwright. Took better care of the ball (A/T ration of 1.99 to 1.78). Dominated him in rebounding (4.1 per game to 2.9). Steals per game (1.4 to .9). Getting to the line (114 to 75 FT attempts). There is no comparison between the two in terms of talent at this point in time. I think fans overrated Cartwright a little because we are so void of talent and the perception is that he is better than what he is because he's probably our 2nd or 3rd best player.

Horner had, Haluska, Brunner, Eric Hansen around him and Henderson to spell him. I'm not saying he is not better all around than Cartwright, just that I don't think he could do on last year's Iowa team what he did for his last team at Iowa. In my mind no way.

Carr, I did watch Horner (Nearly every minute he played in an Iowa Uniform in fact). I loved him and consider him a top 5 Iowa PG, but Bryce is a better fit for this team for what is being asked of the position.

 

[smoot27]

Horner had, Haluska, Brunner, Eric Hansen around him and Henderson to spell him. I'm not saying he is not better all around than Cartwright, just that I don't think he could do on last year's Iowa team what he did for his last team at Iowa. In my mind no way.

Carr, I did watch Horner (Nearly every minute he played in an Iowa Uniform in fact). I loved him and consider him a top 5 Iowa PG, but Bryce is a better fit for this team for what is being asked of the position.

His stats might be slightly worse, but it wouldn't effect his shooting. In fact, he might have better stats since he would be a bigger part of the offense rather than defering to Haluska and Brunner all the time. It's a hypothetical question so we'll never know, but all in all Horner was a more talented player. Refer to my above question and tell me which one of those Big Ten guards you would rank Cartwright ahead of? It's pretty fair to say that at best, Cartwright is no better than a middle of the pack Big Ten pg.

 

[smhawk]

Yea he may not be considered in the top half of B1G PGs for next season, but I'm still glad to have him on the team, especially him being a senior next year.

He's gotta a lot of moves to break down a defender and get to the lane, which is exactly what we're very weak at.

I think if White and our new recruit at PF/C develops well like Basabe that our team can meet the expectations record rise for what fans are looking for realisticly.

But we gotta land Olesina or Katenda.

 

[EddyP]

His stats might be slightly worse, but it wouldn't effect his shooting. In fact, he might have better stats since he would be a bigger part of the offense rather than defering to Haluska and Brunner all the time. It's a hypothetical question so we'll never know, but all in all Horner was a more talented player. Refer to my above question and tell me which one of those Big Ten guards you would rank Cartwright ahead of? It's pretty fair to say that at best, Cartwright is no better than a middle of the pack Big Ten pg.

Any luck finding a school yet Cully?

 

[JHHawk]

yes, the Big Ten was loaded with good pgs last year...but McCamey,Thompson,Nolen,Lucas,Battle,and maybe Morris will be gone next year.
Returning PG's?

Taylor
Craft
Frazier
LewJack
Hull
Morris- maybe
Maniscalco- Bradley transfer at Ill.
Minny's soph.
Sobelewski- NW frosh
Nebraska-?
MSU-?
Bryce Cartwright

Cartwright,who made HM all big ten, stacks up in the top half of that group.
Cartwright played in a speeded up system,where he took a lot of chances,and had a lot of turnovers...but also a lot of assists.
Guys like Matt Painter called him a ''one man fast break''.
Dan Dakich called him ''one of the leading pgs in the country the second half of the league season''
As they say...there are lies,and then there are stats...stats do not tell the whole story.

As for the assessments of the other players....hello? Iowa finished 10th in the league,and they are going to look like world-beaters on paper? Duh.
On paper,Iowa should never have beaten #6 Purdue...never.
Or a talented SEC West Champ Alabama team...never.

Why not assess the returning players on PSU? They lost 4 starters,so how does Iowa stack up against them?
Or IU?...Iowa has won 4 straight vs IU...so,slam dunk,right?
This whole business of calling guys 3rd option on a good team...what? It is all subjective. What if Matt Gatens shoots 45% from three next year? Does that improve him to 3rd option on a bad team or 4th option on a good team?

These are teenagers who change year to year....try not to pigeonhole them,ok?

 

[smoot27]

Any luck finding a school yet Cully?

Ha, I guess offering any reasonable objective analysis of our players on a team that finished 10th in the Big Ten is condemned on this board. Allow me to find my black and gold glasses so Cartwright looks more like Ronnie Lester and Gatens becomes the next Chris Street.

 

[smoot27]

yes, the Big Ten was loaded with good pgs last year...but McCamey,Thompson,Nolen,Lucas,Battle,and maybe Morris will be gone next year.
Returning PG's?

Taylor
Craft
Frazier
LewJack
Hull
Morris- maybe
Maniscalco- Bradley transfer at Ill.
Minny's soph.
Sobelewski- NW frosh
Nebraska-?
MSU-?
Bryce Cartwright

Cartwright,who made HM all big ten, stacks up in the top half of that group.
Cartwright played in a speeded up system,where he took a lot of chances,and had a lot of turnovers...but also a lot of assists.
Guys like Matt Painter called him a ''one man fast break''.
Dan Dakich called him ''one of the leading pgs in the country the second half of the league season''
As they say...there are lies,and then there are stats...stats do not tell the whole story.

As for the assessments of the other players....hello? Iowa finished 10th in the league,and they are going to look like world-beaters on paper? Duh.
On paper,Iowa should never have beaten #6 Purdue...never.
Or a talented SEC West Champ Alabama team...never.

Why not assess the returning players on PSU? They lost 4 starters,so how does Iowa stack up against them?
Or IU?...Iowa has won 4 straight vs IU...so,slam dunk,right?
This whole business of calling guys 3rd option on a good team...what? It is all subjective. What if Matt Gatens shoots 45% from three next year? Does that improve him to 3rd option on a bad team or 4th option on a good team?

These are teenagers who change year to year....try not to pigeonhole them,ok?

I refer to guys as a 3rd option on a good team based on their talent. It's a slightly subjective analysis but IMO a reasonable one. Sure players can develop and I'm assessing the team as of the current situation not what the future holds. Look at Iowa's last good team. How would you rate these players in terms of best to worst:

Brunner, Halaska, Horner and Basabe and Cartwright

That would be a pretty good team excluding the overlapping positions. I think it's pretty fair to assess that Basabe would be the #2 or #3 player and Cartwright probably the #5. Plug Cartwright and Basabe onto any of the end of regular season top 25 teams and I would be willing to bet, that is probably about where they would rank for each team.

I'm also not assessing the returning players because there isn't a benchmark to work with. Ex: the current backup playing limited minutes for another team that graduates a senior, could be better than Cartwright, but there is too limited of a sample size to work with. That would be like other Big Ten FB teams rating their qb better than Vandenberg just because they have a middle of the road starter and we have a new guy with limited reps.

 

[EddyP]

Ha, I guess offering any reasonable objective analysis of our players on a team that finished 10th in the Big Ten is condemned on this board. Allow me to find my black and gold glasses so Cartwright looks more like Ronnie Lester and Gatens becomes the next Chris Street.

Hey, it is your opinion I just don't know how someone could watch every game this year and draw that conclusion. No one said he is an elite player but he certainly is a very good player.

 

[smoot27]

Hey, it is your opinion I just don't know how someone could watch every game this year and draw that conclusion. No one said he is an elite player but he certainly is a very good player.

I never said he was a bad player. I said he could start for a top 25 team, just that he would probably be about the #4-5 best player on that team. He's good at some things, but is severely limited by his poor shooting and turnovers. I think it's more the case of some on here acting like he is in the Dean Oliver class (top 3rd in the Big Ten) as opposed to middle of the pack or slightly worse. I think on a good team, Cartwright is an Al Nolen type of player best case.

 

[deanvogs]

I refer to guys as a 3rd option on a good team based on their talent. It's a slightly subjective analysis but IMO a reasonable one. Sure players can develop and I'm assessing the team as of the current situation not what the future holds. Look at Iowa's last good team. How would you rate these players in terms of best to worst:

Brunner, Halaska, Horner and Basabe and Cartwright

That would be a pretty good team excluding the overlapping positions. I think it's pretty fair to assess that Basabe would be the #2 or #3 player and Cartwright probably the #5. Plug Cartwright and Basabe onto any of the end of regular season top 25 teams and I would be willing to bet, that is probably about where they would rank for each team.

I'm also not assessing the returning players because there isn't a benchmark to work with. Ex: the current backup playing limited minutes for another team that graduates a senior, could be better than Cartwright, but there is too limited of a sample size to work with. That would be like other Big Ten FB teams rating their qb better than Vandenberg just because they have a middle of the road starter and we have a new guy with limited reps.

Real big shocker that you feel your assessment is a reasonable one. Everyone thinks that their personal opinions are the reasonable ones, and everyone else is full of sh!t.

All you are is an anonymous internet board poster......keep that in mind as you declare to all others that YOUR opinion is the correct one...

 

[smoot27]

Real big shocker that you feel your assessment is a reasonable one. Everyone thinks that their personal opinions are the reasonable ones, and everyone else is full of sh!t.

All you are is an anonymous internet board poster......keep that in mind as you declare to all others that YOUR opinion is the correct one...

I guess rather than wasting a post criticizing my claim, you should offer some evidence or at least opinion as to why my assessment is unreasonable. I believe my analysis is reasonable because I included a logical question that no one has been able to answer. Take any of the top 25 end of regular season teams and tell me which ones Cartwright is better than a 4th best starter. It's probably not too many. I suppose it's just easier for you to offer a blanket statement criticism of my post than provide some intelligent discussion and debate. At least while I may disagree with part of what JHHawk and others say, they add value and points of interest to the discussion rather than blanket statements with no substance meaningful to the topic at hand. When I said reasonable assessment it is meant that I am trying to apply some evidence to support my claim as opposed to those on here that just say things like you are an idiot for not liking Cartwright, etc... It doesn't mean that my opinion is 100% correct and others are completely wrong.

 

[deanvogs]

I guess rather than wasting a post criticizing my claim, you should offer some evidence or at least opinion as to why my assessment is unreasonable. I believe my analysis is reasonable because I included a logical question that no one has been able to answer. Take any of the top 25 end of regular season teams and tell me which ones Cartwright is better than a 4th best starter. It's probably not too many. I suppose it's just easier for you to offer a blanket statement criticism of my post than provide some intelligent discussion and debate. At least while I may disagree with part of what JHHawk and others say, they add value and points of interest to the discussion rather than blanket statements with no substance meaningful to the topic at hand. When I said reasonable assessment it is meant that I am trying to apply some evidence to support my claim as opposed to those on here that just say things like you are an idiot for not liking Cartwright, etc... It doesn't mean that my opinion is 100% correct and others are completely wrong.

I did offer an assessment......that you thinking your assessment is a reasonable one isn't a novel idea Smoot.......We all think our assessments and opinions are reasonable.....

As far as my opinion goes, I would say that he does many things well and struggles with some others. He is not a shooter, but gets to the rim, and has a nice pull up game. He distributes the ball well, as his assists show, and he is prone to turning the ball over too much for my liking. Some of that occurs because he is really the only player he had that can create his own shot this year. I think he would be a contributor on every team in the Big10. Do I think he would start on every team? No, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't play major minutes, and be a very solid contributor.

That Smoot is my OPINION of Cartwright....feel free to agree or disagree, I don't care as I realize there can be many differing and reasonable opinions of Cartwright's game.

 

[smoot27]

I did offer an assessment......that you thinking your assessment is a reasonable one isn't a novel idea Smoot.......We all think our assessments and opinions are reasonable.....

As far as my opinion goes, I would say that he does many things well and struggles with some others. He is not a shooter, but gets to the rim, and has a nice pull up game. He distributes the ball well, as his assists show, and he is prone to turning the ball over too much for my liking. Some of that occurs because he is really the only player he had that can create his own shot this year. I think he would be a contributor on every team in the Big10. Do I think he would start on every team? No, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't play major minutes, and be a very solid contributor.

That Smoot is my OPINION of Cartwright....feel free to agree or disagree, I don't care as I realize there can be many differing and reasonable opinions of Cartwright's game.

The funny thing is your assessment is not unlike my assessment of his ability. I said he is a decent player and compared him to an Al Nolen type of player on a decent team. I think your assessment is reasonable because it is observation that is not far from the reality indicated by his stats. There are many reasonable opinions but there are also unreasonable ones such as the blanket statements I was referring to when people claim "he's great and don't dispute it" and offer no stats or benchmark comparables. Statistics may not give the full picture all the time, but they are a good start for making predictions and claims.

 

[smoot27]

By the way, if you refer back to my original post you quoted, you'll see I said my assessment is reasonable (key phrase: In my opinion). I never said it was a proven fact and I don't think we should let one side comment take away from the good discussion of the ability of our roster.