Revamp the playoffs

[NikeHawk21]

I read your post. What don't you understand? You have a 10 team playoff to determine 5 spots it makes no sense.

Really... because I literally just told you that Georgia would be in under the 8 team system I proposed, as would have Oklahama even if they lost. How is that so if they lost in a 10 team playoff? Weird.

Literally every gripe you had in your OP was solved by my system not to mention an 8 team playoff is much more logistically reasonable than 16.

Conference championships would be exciting, and if a crap team did sneak in they would have earned it by winning their P5 conference championship game. In that event the likely teams that would be hurt by this are the Michigan’s who sat at home on conference championship saturday, another one of your gripes.

Try again if you’d like. I haven’t found one of your complaints legitimate.

 

[HawkPrdatr40]

Ok tis the time of year to start bitching and moaning about the fake playoff college football has. Why are we leaving out a team like OSU who won the 2nd toughest conference and only lost 1 game? Why are we matching 2 of the top college football teams up in a Conference championship game, instead of for the title?

Scrap the conference championship games. They are obsolete with 14 team conferences. It is strictly a money grab and it doesn't even determine who makes the playoffs. In the last 4 years we have let 3 teams into the playoffs who didn't even play in a conference championship game. At the same time a team like Georgia gets eliminated because they had to play in that game.

So what we do is simple, replace conference championship games with the first round of the playoffs. You don't see the FCS wasting time playing a "championship game", and the only reason they even came about was for money. Well we have a bigger money making opportunity in a opening round 8 game college football playoff slate. Here is how you do it.

-Each P5 conference division winner gets a spot (Big12's top 2 teams make it)
-6 at large bids whomever the committee picks.

First round games are a week after Thanksgiving and replace the conference championship games. Opening round games can only be hosted by teams who won their your division (At large teams have to go on the road). At large teams and the 2 "worst" division winners go on the road. Matchups determined by the committee.

After the 1st round games are done, the committee re seed everyone and incorporate those next 4 games into the bowl system. New seeding no longer takes into account winning a division. This years 1st round would have looked like this:

Pitt @ Alabama
Northwestern @ Clemson
Penn St. @ Georgia
LSU @ OU
Florida @ Ohio St
UCF @ Washington
Michigan @ Texas
Notre Dame @Utah

This makes the regular season actually mean something. Win your division and you are in period. It forces ND to join a conference or be regulated to going on the road in the first round every year. It gives a non P5 a shot at the playoffs. It lets regular teams like Northwestern, Pitt, etc a shot at making the playoffs. It sets up inner conference rematches for playoff games instead of wasting it on conference championship games.

Don't tell me that the season is only meaningful if only 4 blue blood teams get selected to make the playoffs. Look at all the great matchups we would have in the 1st round. Michigan vs Texas, Penn St. vs Georgia, Florida vs OSU. Sure you got a couple cakewalks, but if you have the best seasons the first round is always easier.

Anyway, I know TL: DR, at least that is what I would say if someone else posted this.

1 Question how the hell do you have the 7-6 Pitt Panthers in.. LMAO That's the funny as shit I've ever seen..

 

[deanvogs]

Really... because I literally just told you that Gerogia would be in under the 8 team system I proposed, as would have Oklahama even if they lost. How is that so if they lost in a 10 team playoff? Weird.

Literally every gripe you had in your OP was solved by my system not to mention an 8 team playoff is much more logistically reasonable than 16.

Conference championships would be exciting, and if a crap team did sneak in they would have earned it by winning their P5 conference championship game. In that event the likely teams that would be hurt by this are the Michigan’s who sat at home on conference championship saturday, another one of your gripes.

Try again if you’d like. I haven’t found one of your complaints legitimate.

Let me try to explain one more time, and see if you can follow.

Saying CCG winners get an auto bid, sets up a 10 team playoff right there. You win, you are in. Can you agree on that?

Saying that CCG loser should then still make an 8 team playoff makes no sense. Why would 2 teams in your scenario (OU if they lost and Georgia) deserve to be in an 8 team playoff when they couldn't even win in a 10 team playoff the week before.

Now on top of all of this you want to say that still other teams who didn't even have to play in a CCG should also make the playoffs. Well why is that? For instance in every one of your scenario's Michigan gets to lose to OSU, not even make the CCG, and still make it. While Michigan sits at home and gets a bye OSU has to win again to get a spot. I'm sure in no scenario of yours does a OSU team that loses to Northwestern make the 8 team playoff. How is that fair to OSU when they beat Michigan and by doing so, basically cements Michigan's spot as an at large selection into your 8 team playoff?

If you actually followed along, you would realize my idea is just improving on yours. I too think that the 10 division winners should be in a playoff to determine the top 5 of the 8 teams. I just also think that an addition 6 teams should also have to play to determine the last 3 spots. I don't think a CCG loser should make it. I don't think a team should get a bye week and get into the playoffs when 10 other teams have to play in to make it. I think you should have to win to get into the 8 team playoff.

 

[deanvogs]

1 Question how the hell do you have the 7-6 Pitt Panthers in.. LMAO That's the funny as shit I've ever seen..

People are really hung up on calling it a 16 team playoff. Fine, call the CCG a "play in game". CCG winners get in, and then you have a group of 6 schools that have to "play in" to the playoffs as well. So basically you would have this:

Northwestern vs OSU
Pitt vs Clemson
Washington vs Utah
Bama vs Georgia
Texas vs OU
Michigan vs LSU
UCF vs Notre Dame
Penn St. vs Florida

Call all those a "play in game" to determine the 8 team playoff field.

I just take it one step further. Why even have the CCG at all? I mean all they do is muddy the water, and mess up the seeding. Georgia shouldn't have to play Bama, they had a better season, so they should be a latter matchup.

 

[NikeHawk21]

Let me try to explain one more time, and see if you can follow.

Saying CCG winners get an auto bid, sets up a 10 team playoff right there. You win, you are in. Can you agree on that?

Saying that CCG loser should then still make an 8 team playoff makes no sense. Why would 2 teams in your scenario (OU if they lost and Georgia) deserve to be in an 8 team playoff when they couldn't even win in a 10 team playoff the week before.

Now on top of all of this you want to say that still other teams who didn't even have to play in a CCG should also make the playoffs. Well why is that? For instance in every one of your scenario's Michigan gets to lose to OSU, not even make the CCG, and still make it. While Michigan sits at home and gets a bye OSU has to win again to get a spot. I'm sure in no scenario of yours does a OSU team that loses to Northwestern make the 8 team playoff. How is that fair to OSU when they beat Michigan and by doing so, basically cements Michigan's spot as an at large selection into your 8 team playoff?

If you actually followed along, you would realize my idea is just improving on yours. I too think that the 10 division winners should be in a playoff to determine the top 5 of the 8 teams. I just also think that an addition 6 teams should also have to play to determine the last 3 spots. I don't think a CCG loser should make it. I don't think a team should get a bye week and get into the playoffs when 10 other teams have to play in to make it. I think you should have to win to get into the 8 team playoff.

I agree that if you win you are in, but I’ve never heard of a football playoff system where you can lose a playoff game and still be in. Therefore I don’t think the conference champ games should be boxed into “playoff category” as you are trying to do here. You're making up your own set of rules.

It’s so funny to watch you completely contradict your OP, for the sake of argument I guess. You literally were bitching about how Georgia didn’t get in. Now you’re saying they shouldn’t get in because they lost to Bama? What’s your stance here it’s hard to follow? The at large portion of my 8 team playoff allows for a team like Georgia to get in as they showed they are a pretty darn good football team Saturday by playing Bama tough. Maybe they’d meet up with them again on a 8 team playoff and knock them off.

What in the world are you talking about with Michigan? If Ohio State would have lost to NW in the B1G championship they would have gotten an at large in my system over Michigan. Both teams two losses and Ohio State just steamrolled Michigan, so don’t get your point there?

 

[deanvogs]

I agree that if you win you are in, but I’ve never heard of a football playoff system where you can lose a playoff game and still be in. Therefore I don’t think the conference champ games should be boxed into “playoff category” as you are trying to do here. You're making up your own set of rules.

It’s so funny to watch you completely contradict your OP, for the sake of argument I guess. You literally were bitching about how Georgia didn’t get in. Now you’re saying they shouldn’t get in because they lost to Bama? What’s your stance here it’s hard to follow? The at large portion of my 8 team playoff allows for a team like Georgia to get in as they showed they are a pretty darn good football team Saturday by playing Bama tough. Maybe they’d meet up with them again on a 8 team playoff and knock them off.

What in the world are you talking about with Michigan? If Ohio State would have lost to NW in the B1G championship they would have gotten an at large in my system over Michigan. Both teams two losses and Ohio State just steamrolled Michigan, so don’t get your point there?

LOL, so OSU is ranked 6 one spot above Michigan beating Northwestern, and they wouldn't drop even one spot at all if they lost to Northwestern? What are you smoking?

Your system would constantly be letting in teams who just lost a play in game. You would force 10 teams to have play in game, while teams like Notre Dame and Michigan sat at home being assured a spot in the playoffs. While I do think what you are proposing is SLIGHTLY better than what we have (only because you were smart enough to give CCG winners an automatic bid). The way you determine the other 3 is total crap, and totally unfair to the 5 other teams who actually earned their spot on the field, while the other 3 teams were gifted their spots. I would be like making the teams with the best records play an extra game, while letting the wildcard teams get the bye week.

 

[NikeHawk21]

LOL, so OSU is ranked 6 one spot above Michigan beating Northwestern, and they wouldn't drop even one spot at all if they lost to Northwestern? What are you smoking?

Your system would constantly be letting in teams who just lost a play in game. You would force 10 teams to have play in game, while teams like Notre Dame and Michigan sat at home being assured a spot in the playoffs. While I do think what you are proposing is SLIGHTLY better than what we have (only because you were smart enough to give CCG winners an automatic bid). The way you determine the other 3 is total crap, and totally unfair to the 5 other teams who actually earned their spot on the field, while the other 3 teams were gifted their spots. I would be like making the teams with the best records play an extra game, while letting the wildcard teams get the bye week.

The committee determines the three at large. If they can’t put two loss OSU in front of a two loss Michigan team they hammered within the last 15 days then you’d need to get a new committee.

What other hypothetical 5 teams earned their spot in my playoff but were unfairly treated by my system? The teams that just lost their CCG? That was their chance to get in.

I think you have yourself talking circles at this point. Your 16 team plan rewards mediocrity (Penn State & Florida). Anyway I guess we will just have to agree to disagree and enjoy that Iowa basketball W.

 

[deanvogs]

The committee determines the three at large. If they can’t put two loss OSU in front of a two loss Michigan team they hammered within the last 15 days then you’d need to get a new committee.

What other hypothetical 5 teams earned their spot in my playoff but were unfairly treated by my system? The teams that just lost their CCG? That was their chance to get in.

I think you have yourself talking circles at this point. Your 16 team plan rewards mediocrity (Penn State & Florida). Anyway I guess we will just have to agree to disagree and enjoy that Iowa basketball W.

Settle it on the field. The 3 selected teams shouldn't get a bye week, when the other 5 teams have to earn it on the field. It is pretty simply really, you for some reason like selection committee and not actual games.

Why is everyone so scared of letting the teams play. The NFL doesn't give the wildcard teams the first round bye's like you think should happen in this system. Imagine forcing the AFC division champions to play a game to get into the playoffs, and give the wildcard teams who didn't have as good of years an automatic bid. LOLOL, and you don't think there is anything flawed at all by that.

 

[NikeHawk21]

Settle it on the field. The 3 selected teams shouldn't get a bye week, when the other 5 teams have to earn it on the field. It is pretty simply really, you for some reason like selection committee and not actual games.

Why is everyone so scared of letting the teams play. The NFL doesn't give the wildcard teams the first round bye's like you think should happen in this system. Imagine forcing the AFC division champions to play a game to get into the playoffs, and give the wildcard teams who didn't have as good of years an automatic bid. LOLOL, and you don't think there is anything flawed at all by that.

I think you are confused. I didn’t say the three at large teams couldn’t play in the conference championship game. Under my system this year it would have been:

Bama (Sec)
Clemson (Acc)
OSU (B10)
OU (B12)
Wash (P12)

At large:
ND
Georgia (played this week)
UCF (played this week)

If Texas would have won the B12 for instance, OU probably gets in over UCF.

And to boot... there would have to be some sort of selection process in your ridiculous 16 team model, how else would mediocre Florida and Penn State get in... you are just spinning your tires man, just give it up.

 

[peerok]

I guess I'm in the minority here but I'm fine with 4 teams in the playoff. Its supposed to be hard to get in. Why in the hell does everyone think all P5 champions should get an automatic bid? Washington lost three times playing in a crappy conference, why do they deserve a shot at the national title? And what if Northwestern had somehow beat Ohio St, does a team that lost to Akron deserve an automatic bid in the playoffs?

Every P5 team begins the season unbeaten and has a chance to play their way in to the playoff during the regular season. The only team this year that had no chance was UCF and I'm OK with them being left out. In an eight team playoff every team would have to win three games. No way in hell UCF beats the like of Bama, Oklahoma and Clemson three weeks in a row. One, maybe if they got lucky, but not three.

If an undefeated P5 conference champ ever gets left out, then I'd be in favor of expanding the playoffs to eight teams, but I don't ever see that happening.

 

[deanvogs]

I think you are confused. I didn’t say the three at large teams couldn’t play in the conference championship game. Under my system this year it would have been:

Bama (Sec)
Clemson (Acc)
OSU (B10)
OU (B12)
Wash (P12)

At large:
ND
Georgia (played this week)
UCF (played this week)

If Texas would have won the B12 for instance, OU probably gets in over UCF.

And to boot... there would have to be some sort of selection process in your ridiculous 16 team model, how else would mediocre Florida and Penn State get in... you are just spinning your tires man, just give it up.

You do realize your system has a 10 team playoff to get 5 spots right? You do understand that is a play in game, and you are allowing Northwestern and Pitt access to the playoffs every bit as much as I'm allowing Penn St. and Florida.

I mean seriously you don't get this? When you give an auto-bid for a CCG, that is playoff game, that is a 10 team playoff you have created to claim 5 of the 8 spots. The only difference is my system, I want a playoff to determine all 8 playoff spots. You are getting all hung up on the words 16 teams, when in fact you already have a 10 team playoff to determine 5 of the spots. Just don't be dumb and hand out 3 other bids to teams who didn't have to take part in a playoff game, and give them a bye (I love how you ignore the fact that Michigan in essence gets a bye into the playoffs).

 

[NikeHawk21]

You do realize your system has a 10 team playoff to get 5 spots right? You do understand that is a play in game, and you are allowing Northwestern and Pitt access to the playoffs every bit as much as I'm allowing Penn St. and Florida.

I mean seriously you don't get this? When you give an auto-bid for a CCG, that is playoff game, that is a 10 team playoff you have created to claim 5 of the 8 spots. The only difference is my system, I want a playoff to determine all 8 playoff spots. You are getting all hung up on the words 16 teams, when in fact you already have a 10 team playoff to determine 5 of the spots. Just don't be dumb and hand out 3 other bids to teams who didn't have to take part in a playoff game, and give them a bye (I love how you ignore the fact that Michigan in essence gets a bye into the playoffs).

Explain to me how it is a 10 team playoff yet Georgia can lose and still make the playoff under my system? Explain that.... you can’t.

You keep bringing up Michigan, maybe they get in as an 8 seed over UCF I don’t know, if they did their reward would be playing Alabama, good luck.

You knock me for using a selection committee when your system would have a selection committee as well.

Also you’re now giving my system shit for giveing Pitt and NW a chance to play themselves into the playoff where your system puts them, along with Florida and Penn State in the playoff from the jump.

You’re funny man. Keep digging yourself deeper and deeper.

 

[deanvogs]

Explain to me how it is a 10 team playoff yet Georgia can lose and still make the playoff under my system? Explain that.... you can’t.

You keep bringing up Michigan, maybe they get in as an 8 seed over UCF I don’t know, if they did their reward would be playing Alabama, good luck.

You knock me for using a selection committee when your system would have a selection committee as well.

Also you’re now giving my system shit for giveing Pitt and NW a chance to play themselves into the playoff where your system puts them, along with Florida and Penn State in the playoff from the jump.

You’re funny man. Keep digging yourself deeper and deeper.

You gave me shit for Pitt and NW, Penn St. and Florida.....while you are giving the worst two of them access in your model.

You don't get how giving an auto bid for a CCG winner that game becomes a playoff game? You think it isn't a playoff game because you have no idea if losing it if you would still somehow make a 8 team playoff (No guarantee at all in your system). What else could that game possibly be, but a playoff game if you are actually going to let Pitt or NW in if they win?

 

[NikeHawk21]

You gave me shit for Pitt and NW, Penn St. and Florida.....while you are giving the worst two of them access in your model.

You don't get how giving an auto bid for a CCG winner that game becomes a playoff game? You think it isn't a playoff game because you have no idea if losing it if you would still somehow make a 8 team playoff (No guarantee at all in your system). What else could that game possibly be, but a playoff game if you are actually going to let Pitt or NW in if they win?

So by your logic the NCAA basketball tournament is actually a 100+ team playoff?

 

[okeefe4prez]

So by your logic the NCAA basketball tournament is actually a 100+ team playoff?

Way more than 100 because of the automatic berth for the conference tournament champions. They need to stop allowing teams that lost in their conference tournaments into the NCAA tournament, though.

 

[ssckelley]

I guess I'm in the minority here but I'm fine with 4 teams in the playoff. Its supposed to be hard to get in. Why in the hell does everyone think all P5 champions should get an automatic bid? Washington lost three times playing in a crappy conference, why do they deserve a shot at the national title? And what if Northwestern had somehow beat Ohio St, does a team that lost to Akron deserve an automatic bid in the playoffs?

Every P5 team begins the season unbeaten and has a chance to play their way in to the playoff during the regular season. The only team this year that had no chance was UCF and I'm OK with them being left out. In an eight team playoff every team would have to win three games. No way in hell UCF beats the like of Bama, Oklahoma and Clemson three weeks in a row. One, maybe if they got lucky, but not three.

If an undefeated P5 conference champ ever gets left out, then I'd be in favor of expanding the playoffs to eight teams, but I don't ever see that happening.

I agree, call me old fashion but I like the bowl games. Playoff expansion would kill the bowl system. Once you expanded it to 8 then eventually it goes to 16, so on and so forth. Keep it at 4 teams.

 

[deanvogs]

So by your logic the NCAA basketball tournament is actually a 100+ team playoff?

BB and football are two different sports makeups and tournaments. I'm not sure what you even think you are proving by talking about BB anyway?

Back on topic, there are really only 2 fundamental difference between yours and my setup. I have thought about what you have proposed and find these errors in your proposal so glaring that it has to be corrected.

1) You are letting teams in that didn't have to play a 13th game, they earn a bye and advantage that is so significant it simply can't be ignored like you keep ignoring it.
2) You are saying that 10 teams have the right to play for 5 playoff spots, and those 10 teams aren't even the top 10 teams in the country. So for instance you are saying that a #11 Wash and #17 Utah deserve the right to play in a game that determines one playoff spot, but you think it is soooo crazy to have a #7 Michigan vs a #9 Florida or a #12 Penn St. vs a #8 UCF to also play for the right to determine one of the 3 at large bids? What sense does it make in your system that a Michigan and Notre Dame get a bye in the first round while everyone else is playing for their spot?

Just adding 3 more games fixes all that, it is only adding 6 more teams to what you are already proposing. It is basically guaranteeing that the top 10-16 teams (some years teams outside the top 16 will make CCG).

Listen, I get you don't agree with me, but don't act like your "playoff Proposal" fixes everything. It just kicks the can down the road, because after 2 years of 8 teams, people will be up in arms about the inequities that I have pointed out and it will move to 16 anyway. There is a "sweet spot" for these things, the NCAA found theirs at 64/68, and I think 16 is that sweet spot for the NCAA football the way it is currently constructed. With 5 conferences, it just muddies the water. If there were 4 conference this would be much easier and 8 would be the answer then.

 

[NikeHawk21]

BB and football are two different sports makeups and tournaments. I'm not sure what you even think you are proving by talking about BB anyway?

Back on topic, there are really only 2 fundamental difference between yours and my setup. I have thought about what you have proposed and find these errors in your proposal so glaring that it has to be corrected.

1) You are letting teams in that didn't have to play a 13th game, they earn a bye and advantage that is so significant it simply can't be ignored like you keep ignoring it.
2) You are saying that 10 teams have the right to play for 5 playoff spots, and those 10 teams aren't even the top 10 teams in the country. So for instance you are saying that a #11 Wash and #17 Utah deserve the right to play in a game that determines one playoff spot, but you think it is soooo crazy to have a #7 Michigan vs a #9 Florida or a #12 Penn St. vs a #8 UCF to also play for the right to determine one of the 3 at large bids? What sense does it make in your system that a Michigan and Notre Dame get a bye in the first round while everyone else is playing for their spot?

Just adding 3 more games fixes all that, it is only adding 6 more teams to what you are already proposing. It is basically guaranteeing that the top 10-16 teams (some years teams outside the top 16 will make CCG).

Listen, I get you don't agree with me, but don't act like your "playoff Proposal" fixes everything. It just kicks the can down the road, because after 2 years of 8 teams, people will be up in arms about the inequities that I have pointed out and it will move to 16 anyway. There is a "sweet spot" for these things, the NCAA found theirs at 64/68, and I think 16 is that sweet spot for the NCAA football the way it is currently constructed. With 5 conferences, it just muddies the water. If there were 4 conference this would be much easier and 8 would be the answer then.

You know exactly what I mean by bringing up the basketball thing you just don’t want to go there because you know it’s a losing argument for the stance you’ve created.

Anyway. Here’s the simple fix for my system for the problems you’ve laid out.

-Put in the committees parameters that teams should be rewarded for making their CCG, win or lose over teams that did not make it (Mich or ND). This also incentivizes ND to get into a conference. With those parameters you get UCF over Michigan this year. Yes ND gets in with a “bye week” as you say but considering they are 12-0 and see bullet 2 for another correction.

-The at large seeds are automatically the bottom three seeds, by virtue of not winning their conference. So you rank the 5 conference champs, and then you rank your at large pool.

Here’s what that would produce:

Bama v UCF

Clemson v ND

OU v Georgia (again committee placing value on making CCG that’s why they jumped ND)

OSU v Wash

Pretty good. The one knock would be Oklahoma gets a tougher draw than OSU, even though they are ranked higher, but that can happen in any system. To win in an 8 team playoff you’re going to have to win 3 games, so you are going to have to beat really good teams.

Lastly your NW Pitt argument continues to fall flat on its face. Yes they have a chance to play themselves into the playoff, thus making the conference championship games much more exciting for the conferences and outsiders. If you were a potential at large team you really wouldn’t want any conference champ upsets because it could cost you your spot. NW and Pitt were heavy underdogs and both lost by over two scores, more times than not the better team will win, but sometimes there might be some drama involved. At least those teams would have made the playoff by winning a power conference championship, not just by virtue of being the tallest midget in a shitty conference division.

 

[Ree4]

How about the 5 conference champions with 6 at larges who have a "play-in" type game before the final 8 emerge. This would help answer the question of fairness that some can sit at home and not play a conference championship and still get in the playoffs. Losers of CCG's would have a second chance.




You'd have:

Alabama

Clemson

Oklahoma

Ohio State

Washington




At Large;

Notre Dame

Georgia

Michigan

UCF

Florida

LSU




Play in: Notre Dame vs LSU

Georgia vs Florida

Michigan vs UCF




2nd Round:




Alabama vs winner of Michigan vs UCF

Clemson vs winner of Georgia vs Florida

Oklahoma vs winner of Notre Dame vs LSU

Ohio State vs Washington







While it does seem SEC heavy this year, there could be a rule where only 2 teams from each conference could go. In this scenario Florida and LSU didn't have to play a CCG while Georgia did, which isn't quite fair but limiting the number from each conference should could eliminate that.




Edit: Based on what some have said we can eliminate CCG losers from contention for the At Large Bid. These would eliminate the unfairness I mentioned above.

 

[Seth53]

Eight teams.

League champs represented, 3 at large. FCS welcome.

Seed them as they do now.

First round, higher seed gets a home game (as it should be...a reward, keep the money on campus, less travel for fans, Southern teams playing in a cold game.....). Tons of upside to this.

Semis: rotate amongst the "big bowls" as they do now. Keep the seed pairings.

Finals: Sell out to the highest bidder.

No, not all fans can see all three games live. But different ones will see different games IMO.

TV out-sells any butts-in-seats revenues anyway.