Omicron Covid

[JoeyLabasForPresident]

How about stop signs? Do you stop at them? Or, can you decide when it is safe? Sorry, it's not a fair example, but it applies, right?

Completely serious response: I see people take rolling stops at stop signs everyday, and so long as they check that it is safe to do so, I don't think anything of it. They run the risk of getting a ticket, but maybe they are really in a hurry. If they are especially dumb they run the risk of flattening another person, and I would react quite differently, but I've yet to see it happen. Unless their doing that puts me at serious risk, it's no skin off my back.

I also delivered pizzas in college and nearly killed multiple drivers who made full stops at intersections where traffic running perpendicular to them did not stop, and they pulled right out in front of me as I was going 40 or 50 mph as if they never even saw me. I had to slam on the breaks, destroying my pizzas in the process. To this day I am pretty sure one lady in particular never saw me, or even heard my breaks. She came to a stop, stared to her right, and flew out in front of me when that was clear, like I was driving on a one-way or something. I wonder if she's gotten herself killed yet.

You should make legal stops at stop signs. Not all illegal stops are created equally.

And you mentioned earlier, there are no mandates regarding smoking? So, you may not be old enough to remember that people could smoke anywhere (inside any building and on airplanes, for crying out loud). But now, when it was decided that second hand smoke was bad for others, there are regulations in place and people can't smoke inside (besides at home and other specially designated places) almost anywhere.

I'd love to see complete prohibition of alcohol and tocacco, personally. I am a teetotaler. I think everyone else should be, too. I think alcohol is perhaps the single most societally damaging substance in common use. But I also understand the drawbacks of prohibition and would never push these views on anyone else. I can both have my personal views, I can profess them to my children and anyone else who cares to listen, but I am not going to go full karen on some drunkard on the street. Hell, I go to organized sporting events where 75% of the other adults there have imbibed and they are none the wiser.

I don't know why I took the time to respond to your second question directed at someone else, but work is slow today and this is the offtopic board, so here we are.

Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk.

 

[JoeyLabasForPresident]

It is already proven the "vaccines" have not worked to limit individuals from getting it, so, people can get off that hope for the time being. We keep hearing of people who have had both vaccines still getting those "breakthrough" cases. In actuality, the produces of the "vaccines" done even refer to them as vaccines anymore, they call them "inoculations" because they now they are preventing the virus.

But, I think there still is a chance it does help on cutting down on symptoms and hospitalizations though.

That's what has been so damaging about calling these vaccines vaccines with no additional explanation. The mRNA vaccines insert proteins that multiply and help your immune system to fight the virus. The J&J inserts nonactive adenovirus strands which your body fights in a similar fashion to covid. But what the vaccine does not do, unlike the yearly flu vaccine, and what most people think of as a vaccine, is inoculate you with the virus itself. The vaccines were never intended to stop you from contracting the virus, they help your body fend it off, and hopefully in some cases make you less likely to spread it. Instead of being honest and educating the public on these facts, the government chose vague descriptions to propagandize, and did more damage to public perception in the process.

 

[MelroseHawkins]

I'm vaccinated, currently have covid so will now be watching the Big Ten Championship from my couch, oh well. Pretty sure I picked it up in Iowa City the weekend of the Illinois game. The friend I went with insisted on parking in the commuter lot and riding the bus (Where masks were required, social distancing certainly wasn't, not that either are doing shit in a confined space like that) instead of parking at Finkbine like I always do, but oh well. Fry's stats are pretty on point. Before you start to lose it on him, he's not some fringe right winger conspiracy theorist. As to the 75% vaccination claim, you might want to turn off the news, which Fry hit on as well. If any of the benchmarks we were sold were going to work (Where work here means, eliminate covid, I'd remind you of two weeks to flatten the curve), they would have. It's a virus, and us pretending it somehow functions differently than any other virus we encounter in any cold and flu season is futile. A 100% flu vaccination rate wouldn't eliminate the flu, either, let alone 75%. Stay home if you're sick, wash your hands, don't infect old people.

Yea, this thing has gotten way out of control to the point where it has disrupted people's lives so much, put a financial burden on people, disrupted the economy, etc. for the effort to try to control this for a small % of the population, a disease which is on par with the flu. Keep in mind how the numbers work. If a person has co-morbidities and succumbs to one of those but has COVID as well, it is counted as a COVID death, etc..

When is the point you completely F up the economy and everyone's lives to try to attempt to control a virus?

The states that have been "opened up" have very similar and some better numbers than the states that have been "locked down". The only difference the states that have been opened up prob survived the effects on the economy better, suicide rates, human assaults, child abuse, higher alcohol and drugs rates, etc..

My boys have gone thru their Junior High thru this time. We still did their youth sports as well as they went to school when finally allowed. There is no way, we as a family dodged this thing for this long playing 13-14U baseball in the summer and basketball (confined in gyms jam packed with people). I'm sure some or prob all of us had had it at some point, but, never tested positive or didn't get tested. I've had tests for the antibodies and around 3 COVID tests which all came back neg. Those aren't an exact science either and really question the false pos and neg results. But, there is NO WAY we avoided the virus that whole time attending those games.

People really need to shut off the CNN's, MSNBC of the world and just live their lives, but responsibly.

 

[MelroseHawkins]

If you want to smoke 10 packs a day and kill yourself, I could give a shit. But when you refuse to get a simple vaccination to prevent infecting me and my family from the deadliest virus pandemic our country has experienced in over 100 years -- for no good reason -- then your behavior becomes MY business and the 'do whatever you want' suggestion becomes BS.
We have traffic rules to prevent needless deaths, but I don't hear antivaxxers saying "if you want to follow the speed limit, fine, if you want to drive 140 mph on the highway, fine."
The incredible hypocrisy of antivaxxers is that 99% of them probably received -- and had their children receive -- basic mumps, rubella, etc vaccines without a peep.
Their level of selfishness is mind-boggling. And I would go beyond that and say they are also being incredibly unpatriotic, as they are preventing our country from recovering economically.

Because it should be a choice in our country.........and...........it hasn't proven to work as a vaccine.

I'm vaccinated, but, I can also identify with the other side that don't choose to get it. The concern is that it is a vaccine that was quickly manufactured to tackle this which is of concern to scientist and medical professionals. The concern are conditions it could potential cause later because there is not a lot of testing for long term data. The concern is if you give it to children who are in developmental age, is it going to do something to the DNR causing something later? Will if F up reproductive systems, cause heart disease later, other immunological conditions. It is the unknown of that which is disconcerting with all this. The newest technology unzips a person's DNA then eventually zips is back up. I think it's relatively safe but who knows for sure. That is the question and I understand some individual's concern.

It's not that simple of just going to get that easy shot.

 

[JoeyLabasForPresident]

Yea, this thing has gotten way out of control to the point where it has disrupted people's lives so much, put a financial burden on people, disrupted the economy, etc. for the effort to try to control this for a small % of the population, a disease which is on par with the flu. Keep in mind how the numbers work. If a person has co-morbidities and succumbs to one of those but has COVID as well, it is counted as a COVID death, etc..

When is the point you completely F up the economy and everyone's lives to try to attempt to control a virus?

The states that have been "opened up" have very similar and some better numbers than the states that have been "locked down". The only difference the states that have been opened up prob survived the effects on the economy better, suicide rates, human assaults, child abuse, higher alcohol and drugs rates, etc..

My boys have gone thru their Junior High thru this time. We still did their youth sports as well as they went to school when finally allowed. There is no way, we as a family dodged this thing for this long playing 13-14U baseball in the summer and basketball (confined in gyms jam packed with people). I'm sure some or prob all of us had had it at some point, but, never tested positive or didn't get tested. I've had tests for the antibodies and around 3 COVID tests which all came back neg. Those aren't an exact science either and really question the false pos and neg results. But, there is NO WAY we avoided the virus that whole time attending those games.

People really need to shut off the CNN's, MSNBC of the world and just live their lives, but responsibly.

The complete lack of social skills I witnessed on beggar's night was shocking. Like really, shocking. Half of the children that came to my door seemed completely unable to even utter the words "trick-or-treat." Let alone look my in the eyes before they robbed me blind of 300 assorted candy bards. Obviously I do not have evidence that my experience was anything but anecdotal, but I sure came away thinking that a lot of those children lost all of their social skills because of the disruption in their lives that was 2020. I lost some of my social skills, and I am a full grown adult. I hope that with some socialization they go back to normal, but all of the potential unintended consequences are precisely why the government should not have the ability to forcibly shutter the economy.

And good lord, this is just the social skills of kids asking for candy in a well-off Des Moines neighborhood that we're talking about. There were a lot worse unintended consequences to be sure.

 

[okeefe4prez]

(That denotes sarcasm for you boomers,

Boomers are the worst. The Germ is a disease that has a 1 in 5 figure chance of materially harming an in shape, healthy, young person. Yet the Boomers have gone from "down with the man" to standing in the corner shaking when some unvaxxed gigachad like myself tells them to get fucked.

I can envision a hypothetical disease that would warrant draconian measures. After maybe 3 months into The Germ hysteria, it was abundantly fucking clear that The Germ was not that disease. My parents and grandma have all had The Germ (pre-vax) and to be blunt, I don't give a shit if your parents or grandparents die from it, just like I don't give a shit if they die from flu or cancer. It has zero bearing on my life. Tell them to get vaxxed, but I ain't getting vaxxed until that shit has been in wide use for several years.

The legacy of the Boomers is going to hell in a hand basket. It wasn't great to begin with, but this shit of trying to dictate ridiculous shit through their totalitarian politburo arm is just amazing. "Free love, flower power, man, peace, freedom man." And now this, begging to their demagogue FauXi to buy them another few months of their pathetic lives. "Oh FauXi, oh Bai-Din, please use your powers to cause everyone to do everything possible to keep The Germ from spreading so we don't die." Boomers are nearing the end of the road and no level of embracing fascism is gonna change it. Get fucked. All of you.

 

[MelroseHawkins]

My wife and i for the most part are holistic minded. When it comes to medication we do research and first take a holistic approach before jumping to western medicine. When it comes to our decision in fighting a virus we make the choice to allow our bodies to fight off virus' just as it's designed to do. We eat heathy (for the most part) and exercise on a regular basis. We have a cognitive ability to way the risk and make a decision on what we believe is right for us. And simply because i make the choice not to get vaccinated does not mean i'm an "anti vaxxer". When my dad asked me what i thought about him getting vaccinated i told him to get it. My dad is 71 and has smoked all his life and is in a high risk category. I'm 42 and take care of my body. I've never received a flu vaccine and there were multiple vaccines we chose not give our children.

You seem like you have a great deal of anxiety about this so my question to you is; since you're vaccinated, what risk is an unvaccinated person poising to you and your family?

This is exactly correct. If you are vaccinated and believe in it, what the hell do you have to worry about or bitch about.

I was the last in our family to get vaccinated for my personal beliefs, much as you state above. My wife eats the scare tactics, works for the school system so got vaccinated and got our twins vaccinated. Well, one of our friends families are over the top, they didn't go anywhere, the woman never got her hair cut for a year, wore double masks when we did meet them in their driveway for a quick visit or to drop something off. They are prob the most careful of any family we know, almost to a fault as it has really been detrimental to their psychological health. Anyway, I was yet to be vaccinated and of course they all were.

The mom when talking to my wife on the phone once asked if I was vaccinated yet, then responded "Well, if _____ isn't vaccinated yet, we can't hang around each other." This completely infuriated me and my wife and my wife knew I'd be infuriated. Who the hell has the audacity to set that line in the sand. Although I didn't really care because they are pretty much mentally fucked by this entire situation now, I was pissed that someone would have the audacity to make that play. I thought the same thing, what do they have to worry about if they are all vaccinated and believe in this "magical vaccination"? I'm the one choosing to be at risk.

 

[MelroseHawkins]

Either way, the currently required vaccines are for diseases that are eradicable.

Covid is not eradicable. Not even remotely close.

They don't even refer to them as vaccines anymore, they are calling them inoculations, and for a reason.

 

[JoeyLabasForPresident]

Boomers are the worst. The Germ is a disease that has a 1 in 5 figure chance of materially harming an in shape, healthy, young person. Yet the Boomers have gone from "down with the man" to standing in the corner shaking when some unvaxxed gigachad like myself tells them to get fucked.

I can envision a hypothetical disease that would warrant draconian measures. After maybe 3 months into The Germ hysteria, it was abundantly fucking clear that The Germ was not that disease. My parents and grandma have all had The Germ (pre-vax) and to be blunt, I don't give a shit if your parents or grandparents die from it, just like I don't give a shit if they die from flu or cancer. It has zero bearing on my life. Tell them to get vaxxed, but I ain't getting vaxxed until that shit has been in wide use for several years.

Hell, we had one in recent memory. Had Ebola travelled freely our streets, I would think twice about letting daddy government shut down society for a couple weeks. For me, the bar is rally damn high, but we have had real plagues in human history, and it's not as if they cannot happen again.

The legacy of the Boomers is going to hell in a hand basket. It wasn't great to begin with, but this shit of trying to dictate ridiculous shit through their totalitarian politburo arm is just amazing. "Free love, flower power, man, peace, freedom man." And now this, begging to their demagogue FauXi to buy them another few months of their pathetic lives. "Oh FauXi, oh Bai-Din, please use your powers to cause everyone to do everything possible to keep The Germ from spreading so we don't die." Boomers are nearing the end of the road and no level of embracing fascism is gonna change it. Get fucked. All of you.

You know what though, for some people this has really been an eye-opener like never before. My mother for example had always been a devout Democrat. She professed the wonders of Obama, the evils of Orange Man™, pee tapes, Hurricane Tits Daniels, and all, went on violent tirades against the anti-Christ Kimberly Kay Reynolds. And then a couple months ago, she called me up and nearly knocked me off my feet.

"BrianFerentzForPresident," she said, "I cannot believe the things I am seeing. I am going to vote for Kim for reelection, I just cannot believe what these democrats are doing. They really think we are all sheep and will vote for anything." Followed by the even more shocking "I am going to vote for Chuck Grassley, he can be my senator until he dies."

Now, I am not going to tell you there is anything wrong necessarily with being either a Democrat or a Republican, but when I tell you my mother was a devout Democrat, I grew up with Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert pre-lateshow and film maker careers on Comedy Central as the go-to news sources in the home. My mother had never voted for anyone with an R next to their name until the school board election this year. This all has really exposed the critical thinkers from the genuine sheep.

 

[MelroseHawkins]

First of all, I want to correct some misinformation in the above posts. It was stated in two posts above that polio was "much more dangerous" and "was extremely deadly" compared to Covid-19. No. Polio results from a VIRUS, folks. 72% of people exposed to the polio virus experience no symptoms. 25% experience mild, flu-like symptoms. 1-5% experience brain & systemic complications. Sound familiar, anyone? Oh, but at the peak of the polio epidemic, the US had 3,000 deaths in one year. We're now over 700,000 deaths in the US in 2 years. So please stop spreading misinformation.
Secondly, the idea that we all live in a bubble and can avoid C-19 by just "avoiding people" is not an option for folks who work for a living.
Thirdly, if I seem to have strong feelings on this topic it's because my wife and one of my sons work in the health profession. My son is a Dr. in Colorado and when I talked with him last night he says their hospital is once again filling up, primarily with "45-60 year old men who are unvaccinated." I hope they survive. I hope others like them get vaccinated for their own health, the health of our country, and so my family members from repeatedly being exposed to a deadly virus. If you don't think people are dying from C-19, I can give you my son's phone #.

My brother-in-law is a physician and he thinks it is is way overblown. I know he has been vaccinated but my sister has not. I don't think they did the whole mask deal unless required to. My point is you are going to find the same debate among the medical professionals to.

our hospitals in Iowa are not being overran. Guess what, hospital's like to fill up, filling up beds is how they earn revenue. They don't build these huge hospitals to choose to maintain them with overhead if not using the equipment and beds. I work in an ancillary capacity in the medical field (research) and know for a fact hospitals want the beds filled. It is a definite business strategy.

 

[JoeyLabasForPresident]

The mom when talking to my wife on the phone once asked if I was vaccinated yet, then responded "Well, if _____ isn't vaccinated yet, we can't hang around each other." This completely infuriated me and my wife and my wife knew I'd be infuriated. Who the hell has the audacity to set that line in the sand. Although I didn't really care because they are pretty much mentally fucked by this entire situation now, I was pissed that someone would have the audacity to make that play. I thought the same thing, what do they have to worry about if they are all vaccinated and believe in this "magical vaccination"? I'm the one choosing to be at risk.

About as shocking as the folks who cut friends and family out of their lives based on how they vote. When did this sort of thing become socially acceptable? And not even that, but to brag about it as if it isn't embarrassing to be be a fascist asshole? And I don't use that word lightly.

As a general rule, anyone who uses to the word "fascist" in general conversation can't define the term, doesn't know a Mussolini from a Franco, and certainly cannot accurately place fascism in the modern political lexicon. But yeah, if you cut people out of their lives because of how they vote, and they aren't card carrying members of NAMBLA or something, you are a fascist. And if you get off to treating people differently based on their personal healthcare decisions, well same.

 

[JoeyLabasForPresident]

our hospitals in Iowa are not being overran. Guess what, hospital's in Iowa like to fill up, filling up beds is how they earn revenue. They don't build these huge hospitals to choose to maintain them with overhead if not using the equipment and beds. I work in an ancillary capacity in the medical field (research) and know for a fact hospitals want the beds filled. It is a definite business strategy.

Just wait until they see what sort of pay the people employed by hospitals are raking in. You'd have to pay me a ton to do another decade of schooling and then work stupid hours on top of it to be a doctor, too, but you have to run a successful business to pay these people what is required to do those jobs.

Edit: To piggy back on this, it has been really shocking to see all the "Big Pharma is Evil, M4A!" Folks fall head over heels for Dr. Pfizer. All rational thought goes out the window in the face of fear.

 

[Fryowa]

How about stop signs? Do you stop at them? Or, can you decide when it is safe? Sorry, it's not a fair example, but it applies, right?

And you mentioned earlier, there are no mandates regarding smoking? So, you may not be old enough to remember that people could smoke anywhere (inside any building and on airplanes, for crying out loud). But now, when it was decided that second hand smoke was bad for others, there are regulations in place and people can't smoke inside (besides at home and other specially designated places) almost anywhere.

I agree on the vaccinations ... I am vaccinated. I have a friend who is not, along with his family (and I don't say anything to him). He has his reasons which I won't go into.

However, there are reasons for some things that exist today and it might become part of normal life. It's not the media that is making people think unreasonably. It's mitigation in many cases.

I get where you're coming from, but we can "but for" this whole thing into oblivion.

My stance is not an antivaccination one. My stance is based on people's overestimation--and over-emphasis--of risk, which is caused by media and politicians. Media drives fear because it increases consumption of what they're selling. Politicians drive fear because it gives them power.

Stop signs, smoking, cheeseburgers, drugs...they all have (or should have) one that common factor that dictates whether they should be controlled by laws or mandates.

On a macro level that one factor is risk to society, and on a micro level it's risk to other individual people.

It is a fact that when someone is vaccinated, their risk of being hospitalized for covid is extremely low. Much, much lower chance yet of dying. If that person has good health from their diet and exercise, and if they wear a mask and social distance, their risk if hospitalization is effectively nil.

Diet, exercise, vaccination, mask wearing, and social distancing are all personal choices that people can freely make on their own that effectively make covid a non-issue. Therefore, unlike a stop sign that will in fact have a VERY high likelihood of getting someone killed unsuspectingly, I should not be forced to do something to my body when there is almost zero risk to other people (if they choose to protect themselves). If Martha eats 5 cheeseburgers a day, smokes, has Type 2 because of her own choices, and chooses not to protect herself, that is not my fault for not being vaccinated, or even being vaccinated and not wearing a mask. Martha's own choices led to her situation. Will some healthy, vaccinated people get breakthrough cases and die? Yes. But that exists with literally anything, even even to a greater degree (before covid) with influenza. The number of vaccinated healthy folks who've died of covid is statistical noise.

The question always comes down to how much we are willing to alter our lives, keep our kids out of school which undoubtedly causes social and developmental harm, close businesses, or restrict travel, which decimates our economy. Are we going to live in fear and always weafr masks and stand apart from people and lockdown? Because coronaviruses ALWAYS mutate and can NEVER be eradicated with any shot.

Instead of people scared of covid castigating unvaccinated people for not protecting them, maybe those people should think rationally about the true level of risk and see that they can protect themselves almost 100%.

And people dismissing my argument about smoking and unhealthy foods, you're dodging a point and not giving an answer.

Our government could eliminate tens of thousands of automobile deaths instantly by making vehicle travel illegal (more ddangerous statistically than covid in healthy individuals)

Our government could almost eradicate all forms of heart disease by banning trans fats and sugar, and regulating the allowable calories per day. (much greater killer than covid and totally preventable)

Our government could eradicate all smoking deaths by making smoking illegal. (much greater killer than covid and totally preventable).

But it doesn't. We would feel like banning cigarettes and cheeseburgers, making exercise compulsory, and making driving illegal would be an impingement of our freedoms. Just like mandatory medical choices. That's not "whataboutism," that's truth. Are our government and media really doing this in the interest of saving lives? because those three things I just mentioned would save exponentially more lives than covid would cause. Or are our government and media doing this because of fear, irrationality, and the opportunity to make money off of people's irrational fears?

 

[MelroseHawkins]

The complete lack of social skills I witnessed on beggar's night was shocking. Like really, shocking. Half of the children that came to my door seemed completely unable to even utter the words "trick-or-treat." Let alone look my in the eyes before they robbed me blind of 300 assorted candy bards. Obviously I do not have evidence that my experience was anything but anecdotal, but I sure came away thinking that a lot of those children lost all of their social skills because of the disruption in their lives that was 2020. I lost some of my social skills, and I am a full grown adult. I hope that with some socialization they go back to normal, but all of the potential unintended consequences are precisely why the government should not have the ability to forcibly shutter the economy.

And good lord, this is just the social skills of kids asking for candy in a well-off Des Moines neighborhood that we're talking about. There were a lot worse unintended consequences to be sure.

Yes, the collateral damage that this has caused is the most concerning.

 

[MelroseHawkins]

Boomers are the worst. The Germ is a disease that has a 1 in 5 figure chance of materially harming an in shape, healthy, young person. Yet the Boomers have gone from "down with the man" to standing in the corner shaking when some unvaxxed gigachad like myself tells them to get fucked.

I can envision a hypothetical disease that would warrant draconian measures. After maybe 3 months into The Germ hysteria, it was abundantly fucking clear that The Germ was not that disease. My parents and grandma have all had The Germ (pre-vax) and to be blunt, I don't give a shit if your parents or grandparents die from it, just like I don't give a shit if they die from flu or cancer. It has zero bearing on my life. Tell them to get vaxxed, but I ain't getting vaxxed until that shit has been in wide use for several years.

The legacy of the Boomers is going to hell in a hand basket. It wasn't great to begin with, but this shit of trying to dictate ridiculous shit through their totalitarian politburo arm is just amazing. "Free love, flower power, man, peace, freedom man." And now this, begging to their demagogue FauXi to buy them another few months of their pathetic lives. "Oh FauXi, oh Bai-Din, please use your powers to cause everyone to do everything possible to keep The Germ from spreading so we don't die." Boomers are nearing the end of the road and no level of embracing fascism is gonna change it. Get fucked. All of you.

My father and step-mother are the last people I would have wanted to get the "Germ" as you put it. Dad is overweight and he doesn't get around to well anymore, although his ticker and lungs seem OK. But my stepmom's lungs are in pretty bad shape from years of smoking, emphysema, etc.. She's been told if she ever got any real bad illness it might be the end which almost happen 4-5 yrs ago. We thought if she got it the way it attacks the lungs, she'd be a gonner. Well, they both tested positive for it in late 2020 or early 2021 and survived it, relatively unscathed. No hospitalizations.

There is no rhyme or reason to this thing, but the government and many people are still willing to completely F up their lives trying to figure it out or control it.

 

[Robowe]

I get where you're coming from, but we can "but for" this whole thing into oblivion.

My stance is not an antivaccination one. My stance is based on people's overestimation--and over-emphasis--of risk, which is caused by media and politicians. Media drives fear because it increases consumption of what they're selling. Politicians drive fear because it gives them power.

Stop signs, smoking, cheeseburgers, drugs...they all have (or should have) one that common factor that dictates whether they should be controlled by laws or mandates.

On a macro level that one factor is risk to society, and on a micro level it's risk to other individual people.

It is a fact that when someone is vaccinated, their risk of being hospitalized for covid is extremely low. Much, much lower chance yet of dying. If that person has good health from their diet and exercise, and if they wear a mask and social distance, their risk if hospitalization is effectively nil.

Diet, exercise, vaccination, mask wearing, and social distancing are all personal choices that people can freely make on their own that effectively make covid a non-issue. Therefore, unlike a stop sign that will in fact have a VERY high likelihood of getting someone killed unsuspectingly, I should not be forced to do something to my body when there is almost zero risk to other people (if they choose to protect themselves). If Martha eats 5 cheeseburgers a day, smokes, has Type 2 because of her own choices, and chooses not to protect herself, that is not my fault for not being vaccinated, or even being vaccinated and not wearing a mask. Martha's own choices led to her situation. Will some healthy, vaccinated people get breakthrough cases and die? Yes. But that exists with literally anything, even even to a greater degree (before covid) with influenza. The number of vaccinated healthy folks who've died of covid is statistical noise.

The question always comes down to how much we are willing to alter our lives, keep our kids out of school which undoubtedly causes social and developmental harm, close businesses, or restrict travel, which decimates our economy. Are we going to live in fear and always weafr masks and stand apart from people and lockdown? Because coronaviruses ALWAYS mutate and can NEVER be eradicated with any shot.

Instead of people scared of covid castigating unvaccinated people for not protecting them, maybe those people should think rationally about the true level of risk and see that they can protect themselves almost 100%.

And people dismissing my argument about smoking and unhealthy foods, you're dodging a point and not giving an answer.

Our government could eliminate tens of thousands of automobile deaths instantly by making vehicle travel illegal (more ddangerous statistically than covid in healthy individuals)

Our government could almost eradicate all forms of heart disease by banning trans fats and sugar, and regulating the allowable calories per day. (much greater killer than covid and totally preventable)

Our government could eradicate all smoking deaths by making smoking illegal. (much greater killer than covid and totally preventable).

But it doesn't. We would feel like banning cigarettes and cheeseburgers, making exercise compulsory, and making driving illegal would be an impingement of our freedoms. Just like mandatory medical choices. That's not "whataboutism," that's truth.

I agree with most of what you said on the anti-vaccination front. I believe in vaccinations, but understand when someone doesn't feel comfortable getting them. My wife used to not get the flue vaccine, but her new physician suggested it was a good idea this year. She decided to get the flu vaccine. It was her choice (and I have never pressured her into getting it). In fact, I was surprised/shocked when she came home and said she got the flu vaccine.

However, I don't agree with the false equivalency of eliminating driving, smoking, or heart disease. The government is trying to mitigate the downside of driving (with mandatory seat belts, lowering of speed limits, and other things like air bags), smoking (no more indoor public smoking or smoking on airplanes) and heart disease (more laws about the processing of foods and labeling).

It isn't always about something isn't good so it should be eliminated. It's about what you said ... mitigating the risk. However, there are some mitigation methods that end up being a normal part of life due to results (or sometimes even just the idea).

I found this funny this week ... I was watching Get Back (the documentary on Disney + about the Beatles). There is a warning at the beginning about language ... and smoking being depicted in the show. I mean, all of the Beatles (and many others) smoked like chimneys back in the day. And, 2 of them are still alive! Of course, unfortunately, one died of throat cancer.

Good discussion ... and no hard feelings. I do agree with letting people live their lives, for the most part.

 

[JoeyLabasForPresident]

I found this funny this week ... I was watching Get Back (the documentary on Disney + about the Beatles). There is a warning at the beginning about language ... and smoking being depicted in the show. I mean, all of the Beatles (and many others) smoked like chimneys back in the day. And, 2 of them are still alive! Of course, unfortunately, one died of throat cancer.

I met a really cool Swede over the summer at a wedding, his girlfriend was in the wedding party, she had been a foreign exchange student when the bride was in school. He said the strangest thing culturally in America (The wedding was in rural Minnesota, but he had travelled a fair bit, he was actually probably more widely travelled in terms of major American cities than me, which is not a very high bar) was that nobody smoked. He said everyone in Sweden, and most of continental Europe of all ages smoke. Even the young people. It was just normal, and not smoking was weird. Strange that for all of the "backwardness" of Americans in the eyes of the average Scandinavian that we have mostly eliminated the fashionableness of smoking and they have not.

The other weird thing at the weeding was that one of the girls at my table (I was at the misfits table, we were friends of the groom from high school) was that while her parents were refugees from Russia, and she talked about most Americans not understanding how good they have it, she was somehow incredibly far left, extolling something near Stalinism. I was baffled. There was this great moment when she was complaining about the ridiculous cost of a parking spot in downtown Sioux City (Her words), how this was representative of the evils of Capitalism, when the Swede piped up and said something along the lines of "I pay very high taxes in Sweden, and I am okay with that despite the fraud to support others. But I also pay 6000 Euros a year for the parking spot in Stockholm for my boat." This was the parking spot for when he commuted to work, not his full time dock. The little Trotskyite didn't talk much after that. It was really strange, how someone could be living in a land between "America is so great" and "Capitalism is so terrible," when her parents had themselves fled that system thirty or so years prior, but it's one of those things I probably will never understand.

 

[MelroseHawkins]

I get where you're coming from, but we can "but for" this whole thing into oblivion.

My stance is not an antivaccination one. My stance is based on people's overestimation--and over-emphasis--of risk, which is caused by media and politicians. Media drives fear because it increases consumption of what they're selling. Politicians drive fear because it gives them power.

Stop signs, smoking, cheeseburgers, drugs...they all have (or should have) one that common factor that dictates whether they should be controlled by laws or mandates.

On a macro level that one factor is risk to society, and on a micro level it's risk to other individual people.

It is a fact that when someone is vaccinated, their risk of being hospitalized for covid is extremely low. Much, much lower chance yet of dying. If that person has good health from their diet and exercise, and if they wear a mask and social distance, their risk if hospitalization is effectively nil.

Diet, exercise, vaccination, mask wearing, and social distancing are all personal choices that people can freely make on their own that effectively make covid a non-issue. Therefore, unlike a stop sign that will in fact have a VERY high likelihood of getting someone killed unsuspectingly, I should not be forced to do something to my body when there is almost zero risk to other people (if they choose to protect themselves). If Martha eats 5 cheeseburgers a day, smokes, has Type 2 because of her own choices, and chooses not to protect herself, that is not my fault for not being vaccinated, or even being vaccinated and not wearing a mask. Martha's own choices led to her situation. Will some healthy, vaccinated people get breakthrough cases and die? Yes. But that exists with literally anything, even even to a greater degree (before covid) with influenza. The number of vaccinated healthy folks who've died of covid is statistical noise.

The question always comes down to how much we are willing to alter our lives, keep our kids out of school which undoubtedly causes social and developmental harm, close businesses, or restrict travel, which decimates our economy. Are we going to live in fear and always weafr masks and stand apart from people and lockdown? Because coronaviruses ALWAYS mutate and can NEVER be eradicated with any shot.

Instead of people scared of covid castigating unvaccinated people for not protecting them, maybe those people should think rationally about the true level of risk and see that they can protect themselves almost 100%.

And people dismissing my argument about smoking and unhealthy foods, you're dodging a point and not giving an answer.

Our government could eliminate tens of thousands of automobile deaths instantly by making vehicle travel illegal (more ddangerous statistically than covid in healthy individuals)

Our government could almost eradicate all forms of heart disease by banning trans fats and sugar, and regulating the allowable calories per day. (much greater killer than covid and totally preventable)

Our government could eradicate all smoking deaths by making smoking illegal. (much greater killer than covid and totally preventable).

But it doesn't. We would feel like banning cigarettes and cheeseburgers, making exercise compulsory, and making driving illegal would be an impingement of our freedoms. Just like mandatory medical choices. That's not "whataboutism," that's truth. Are our government and media really doing this in the interest of saving lives? because those three things I just mentioned would save exponentially more lives than covid would cause. Or are our government and media doing this because of fear, irrationality, and the opportunity to make money off of people's irrational fears?

Back in the summer of 2020 we were doing the 14U baseball weekend tournament dealy. It was when we were only supposed to have parents and immediate family attend games, no grouping in the bleachers right behind home plate, space on the baselines, etc.. We were outside in the air and people roamed around most unmasked but spaced.

No grandparents were really supposed to go but they did as they know there are only so many years they can watch grandsons play. They took the risks. Anyway, I remember going to the field one tournament and some older lady who was obviously a grandmother, state quite loud to her husband, intending all around her to hear to her husband something about how rude it is people aren't wearing masks. It was even more snarky than that but I can't remember the quote. Anyway, all I thought was F it lady, if you are that scared, don't come.

Hell, she wasn't even supposed to be there and those to take that risk anyway. But the nerve of her to bitch about people when she was there "illegally" on her own taking the risk. Funny, nobody acknowledged her and just kept on going.

 

[okeefe4prez]

I met a really cool Swede over the summer at a wedding, his girlfriend was in the wedding party, she had been a foreign exchange student when the bride was in school. He said the strangest thing culturally in America (The wedding was in rural Minnesota, but he had travelled a fair bit, he was actually probably more widely travelled in terms of major American cities than me, which is not a very high bar) was that nobody smoked. He said everyone in Sweden, and most of continental Europe of all ages smoke. Even the young people. It was just normal, and not smoking was weird. Strange that for all of the "backwardness" of Americans in the eyes of the average Scandinavian that we have mostly eliminated the fashionableness of smoking and they have not.

The swedes also use snus in huge numbers and they have the lowest incidence of mouth and throat cancer in the western world.

 

[Fryowa]

However, I don't agree with the false equivalency of eliminating driving, smoking, or heart disease. The government is trying to mitigate the downside of driving (with mandatory seat belts, lowering of speed limits, and other things like air bags), smoking (no more indoor public smoking or smoking on airplanes) and heart disease (more laws about the processing of foods and labeling).

It isn't always about something isn't good so it should be eliminated. It's about what you said ... mitigating the risk. However, there are some mitigation methods that end up being a normal part of life due to results (or sometimes even just the idea).

I agree in part except when it comes to the point of taking control of someone's body. The government (nor anyone else) should have no say over what I do to my body. That's off limits, sacred, and the only thing that any of us really "own." I'll never change my mind on that. There are certain situations when it truly is preventing disease, death, and crime such as smallpox, hard drugs (being illegal), etc...but one's physical body is truly no one's property but their own. Covid does not cause danger to other people's lives because other people can do things to essentially 100% protect themselves with little effort and no money required.

We are on the same page, but I won't change my mind that one's medical choices should be 100% off limits, and that covid is not a substantial risk whatsoever to people who safeguard themselves. In other words, there should be zero allowable instances when the government can make medical choices for my body if there is no danger to others. Never.