Objective comparison of Fran and Lick

This thread makes me laugh. Licks style of play - boring, attendance dropped every year and lost his best players every year.

Players to leave that actually played for coach:

Under Lick
Tony Freeman - Best player on team at that time
Jake Kelly - Big Ten Honors - Best player on team
Jeff Peterson - Only True PG on team - one of the better players
Jermain Davis
David Palmer
Anthony Tucker
Dan Bohall
Brett Wessels

Under Fran
Cully Payne - alright PG have to fight for starting job

I didn't list Tyler Smith - Big Ten Honers-Best player on team (for Lick) and Aaron Fuller Big Ten Honors one of the better players. (for Fran) because the didn't play for the coach.

The only players Fran has lost are players that have never played one minute of basketball for Iowa.

Cody Larson - In jail - didn't recruit (Florida)
Ben Brust - rode the bench - didn't recruit (Wisconsin)
Anthony Hubbard - Who knows

I'm looking forward to watching an Iowa basketball team play where all the returning players come back and seeing the improvement. It's been like 5 years since that has happened.
 
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CRhawkeye4life said:
This thread makes me laugh. Licks style of play - boring, attendance dropped every year and lost his best players every year.

Players to leave that actually played for coach:

Under Lick
Tony Freeman - Best player on team at that time
Jake Kelly - Big Ten Honors - Best player on team
Jeff Peterson - Only True PG on team - one of the better players
Jermain Davis
David Palmer
Anthony Tucker
Dan Bohall
Brett Wessels

Under Fran
NONE

I didn't list Tyler Smith - Big Ten Honers-Best player on team (for Lick) and Aaron Fuller Big Ten Honors one of the better players. (for Fran) because the didn't play for the coach.

The only players Fran has lost are players that have never played one minute of basketball for Iowa.

Cody Larson - In jail - didn't recruit (Florida)
Ben Brust - rode the bench - didn't recruit (Wisconsin)
Anthony Hubbard - Who knows

I'm looking forward to watching an Iowa basketball team play where all the returning players come back and seeing the improvement. It's been like 5 years since that has happened.
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How about Cully Pane? He left under Fran and we sure could use some pg depth about now.
 
I think it is funny how people want to compare Lick at year three to Fran at year one. Compare both at equal points.

That being said: Lick - Wasn't able to keep best player, lost PG he didn't want.

Fran - Wasn't able to keep best player. Lost PG he didn't want. Also, lost recruit prior to season.

People, I am not a Fran hater, nor did I want them to keep Lick. I just think we should be objective.
 
If Fran had already, or does sign Woodbury, everyone would/will be singing Fran's praises.

He is only going into his second year as coach and his first year was a hell of a lot more fun to watch than anything we have seen in a long time. People need to lighten up and get over the fact that Hubbard left and not make that a dark cloud that overshadows the optimism we had during the basketball season.
 
Caar - Fran DID NOT lose Fuller. Fuller checked out before the season was over in a very similar manner as to other players that have transferred like Tyler Smith. Feel free to ask Aaron if he left because of the change or was leaving regardless of a change. The question is of course rhetorical. There were other players rumored to be leaving IF Lick remained. Do you want to count the lack of defections as a nice kick save by Fran? Of course you won't.

Brust wasn't a good fit for Fran. Both parties knew it and when the Wisky scholly opened up it made the decision fairly straight for both parties.

Larson was a head case. He didn't have legit offers other than Iowa prior to signing with Iowa. Again, the change in coach created a feeding frenzy on Iowa signee's and when Florida came calling the outcome should have been expected by all involved.
 
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HawkeyeMike23 said:
Losing Hubbard is a major loss for Fran. I'm sure he had to convince quite a few people in the administration that taking Hubbard was worth the risk. After how this turned out, I would think Fran is going to have a much harder time trying to bring in another player who is viewed as a risk in the future.
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As much as we've come to understand how much they checked out Hubbard and seemingly got to know him, him leaving makes no sense. None. There has got to be a story besides him wanting to be closer to home. Normally, I'm ok with coaches keeping this story in house, but this is an occasion where I'd like to see Fran come clean with the fans on what happened, particularly if, as you say, another "risk" is recruited in the future. People won't be willing to accept a future risk recruit if the circumstances of Hubbard's departure aren't fully revealed.
 
12345:

To be objective you need to measure things equally.

Lick not being able to keep Smith is the same as Fran not being able to keep Fuller.

Lick letting Freeman walk is the same as Fran letting Cully walk.

Lick brought in 3 three star players in his first class (and yes, I count previously signed guys, because it is not a given they stay).

Fran brought in 4 Three stars in his first class.

Lick brought in 5 three stars and a 2 in his second class.

Fran brought in four three stars (however lost one before school started)

That is where each coach stands at the exact same point. The next point for comparison is November.
 
CAARHawk said:
12345:

To be objective you need to measure things equally.

Lick not being able to keep Smith is the same as Fran not being able to keep Fuller.

Lick letting Freeman walk is the same as Fran letting Cully walk.

Lick brought in 3 three star players in his first class (and yes, I count previously signed guys, because it is not a given they stay).

Fran brought in 4 Three stars in his first class.

Lick brought in 5 three stars and a 2 in his second class.

Fran brought in four three stars (however lost one before school started)

That is where each coach stands at the exact same point. The next point for comparison is November.
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Queue the "stars don't mean a thing" crowd. Shame on you for being rational on an Iowa message board. Nobody is cheering harder for Fran to succeed than I am. But he needs to come up with a BIG recruiting class this year (2-3 top 100 players) or I'm afraid the writing is on the wall.
 
CAARHawk said:
12345:

To be objective you need to measure things equally.

Lick not being able to keep Smith is the same as Fran not being able to keep Fuller.

Lick letting Freeman walk is the same as Fran letting Cully walk.

Lick brought in 3 three star players in his first class (and yes, I count previously signed guys, because it is not a given they stay).

Fran brought in 4 Three stars in his first class.

Lick brought in 5 three stars and a 2 in his second class.

Fran brought in four three stars (however lost one before school started)

That is where each coach stands at the exact same point. The next point for comparison is November.
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I've never blamed Lick for Smith leaving - that was all on alford and the final straw that led him to leave for NM.


Alford resigned in March 2007. Cole and Kelly signed LOIs in 2006 and Peterson signed in April 2007. I don't give Fran credit for any recruits other than Basabe and Cartwright in his first class so I won't give Lick credit for any recruits in his first class.

Licks 2nd class - 6 players - only has 2 remaining on the team - Gatens and Brommer. Gatens would have been a Hawkeye even if you were the coach so no credit should be given to any coach. The kid committed in June of 2005 as a Soph or Jr. Beyond that, Lick couldn't identify talent if it bit him in the ***.

The two coaches aren't even close to being similar.
 
The difference between Lick and Fran so far is that Fran has already brought in two players, reguarless of star ranking, that have had far more impacts on the program in their first year than Lick ever did. That said, is it good enough? In the short term it isn't, Iowa does need more players that will make an impact in their first season. However, the state of the program was far worse when Fran took over compared to when Lick took over. The difference two wins, I believe. I agree that we need to compare them at the same steps, but after year one, to me, it is more apparent that Fran has the program in a whole lot better shape for year two than Lick had for year two. Is that where Fran and the fans want to be....ummmmmm, very doubtful.
When year two is done and over with, lets see how things look and I think again Fran will be be looking much, much better.
People are complaining about Iowa not bringing in "stars" and there is a little justification to that, but has anyone been following Kyle Meyer...I like everything that I am reading. He plays for a great AAU team next to one of the top big men in the country. What I like most is that he is seemingly dominating the second level defenders that he is matched up against as Goodwin will draw most of the attention. I think Basabe will draw teams best big defender, so if Meyer can continue to develop as he has this Spring/Summer, he will make solid contributions next year, but he is one of those crappy 3-star players. I am not saying recruiting rankings don't matter, it does give an idea of what the player should be, but unless Iowa is recruiting kids that prove they can't get better like about every Lickliter recruit, then Iowa is in trouble. As posted in the past, every player except for May/McCabe made significant improvements throughout the season. Player development will be just as instrumental as recruiting.
 
12345

Players who sign with a coach who leaves still need to decide to stay. As you saw with Larson and Brust, guys can leave and it is customary for coaches to release players who want to leave. New coaches need to convince players to stay. Also, top coaches like Cal, Hugs, and Roy can basically sign top classes as soon as they show up a get rid of guys they don't want. Cal did this with a bunch of KU recruits and Hugs sent Bawinkle packing.

So you really can't put so much on whether a player signed before a coach showed up.

As far as talking about how many of Lick's players are still with the team, I am wondering if you might have a comprehension issue. I said, I am comparing each coach at the same point in time. Anything else doesn't make sense, because you are judging Lick's situation over three years and just expecting all of Fran's players will stay, when at the exact same stage, Fran has technically lost more signed recruits than Lick at this point in their careers as Iowa coaches.

Does this mean Fran will lose the staggering number of players Lick lost? Highly unlikely. But again, an objective look at the numbers does not involve predictions but actual factual data.
 
I still think we have a nice mix of players and I do think Fran is a better coach than Lick. Remember, this was only season No. 1 ... The good thing about basketball is you only have five players on the court at one time ... Land a few good players who develop nice team chemistry and the sky is the limit. Look at schools like Butler ... The sky is not falling ... But when something like this happens it is a set back ... And it is tough for Hawk fans because we are all hoping to get this thing turned around and we are tired of negative news surrounding the bball program ...
 
CAARHawk said:
12345:

To be objective you need to measure things equally.

Lick not being able to keep Smith is the same as Fran not being able to keep Fuller.

Lick letting Freeman walk is the same as Fran letting Cully walk.

Lick brought in 3 three star players in his first class (and yes, I count previously signed guys, because it is not a given they stay).

Fran brought in 4 Three stars in his first class.

Lick brought in 5 three stars and a 2 in his second class.

Fran brought in four three stars (however lost one before school started)

That is where each coach stands at the exact same point. The next point for comparison is November.
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Oh heres another for Lick that left in he's 1st year:
Dairese Gary
Josh Crawford
 
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CAARHawk said:
12345

Players who sign with a coach who leaves still need to decide to stay. As you saw with Larson and Brust, guys can leave and it is customary for coaches to release players who want to leave. New coaches need to convince players to stay. Also, top coaches like Cal, Hugs, and Roy can basically sign top classes as soon as they show up a get rid of guys they don't want. Cal did this with a bunch of KU recruits and Hugs sent Bawinkle packing.

So you really can't put so much on whether a player signed before a coach showed up.

As far as talking about how many of Lick's players are still with the team, I am wondering if you might have a comprehension issue. I said, I am comparing each coach at the same point in time. Anything else doesn't make sense, because you are judging Lick's situation over three years and just expecting all of Fran's players will stay, when at the exact same stage, Fran has technically lost more signed recruits than Lick at this point in their careers as Iowa coaches.

Does this mean Fran will lose the staggering number of players Lick lost? Highly unlikely. But again, an objective look at the numbers does not involve predictions but actual factual data.
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That is incorrect Lick and Fran each had 3 players leave in year one
Josh Crawford
Tony Freeman
Dairese Gary

Fran:
Cully Payne
Cody Larson
Ben Burst

Anthony Hubbard(technically I believe this would be year 2 since this is his 2nd class)
 
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I'm not seeing the fact that if Fran doesn't have a wonderful class we should be prepared to move on. Yes we need good recruits but to lure them you need to win. I dint expect any different from what Fran's putting out now until the team goes above .500. To expect otherwise is rediculous. I'd like to know whats appealing to anyone to come to Iowa for bball who isn't from here. New facilities, and an up tempo team. That's about all for now. Winning = recruits = winning.
 
Yes, you are right about Gary, Brust and Larson being signed recruits. Also, I guess we should consider Smith, Fuller, and Crawford, but I wasn't.

So, BY THIS POINT IN TIME (which is mid-July of year two) Lick lost Smith, Crawford, and Freeman. Fran has lost Fuller, Payne, and Hubbard.

So, I was wrong about Fran technically losing more signed players, because I wasn't counting the guys who left at the change, i.e, Smith, Fuller, and Crawford.
 
How about taking a look at the asst coaches of TL and FM? I think that speaks volumes about where things are likely headed.

FM is bringing in the 3* guys to get us pointed in the right direction because the 4* guys are not very interested in going to a team with no stability and a lack of winning in the recent past.

Once we get things rolling the 4* guys may start comming. I want to win immediately as much as the next guy but lets not get carried away by thinking FM and TL are comparable. TL struggled to get an asst job at Ohio a few short years after being COY. FM has far more head coaching and recruiting experience than TL and has lost only one marginal player after one year. TL lost some of his best playerS every year and had a full blown mutiny on his hands.
 
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